Misc Oilahuasca: Not Reccomended

[NolanG]

So I decided to try oilahuasca, it seemed pretty interesting and I have access to a ton of essential oils and aroma chemicals. But I feel that these materials bring a toxic load and don't even work anyway. It seems to be almost all theory, really can anyone even provide a succesful trip report in this category??

In summary, cassia cinnamon bark oil contains toxic levels of coumarin, even in 1-2 drops (if my calculations are correct). I beleive clove oils has know toxic effects as well. Basically the majority of the allyl benzene category has toxic/carcinogenic effects on the liver, kidney and other areas to some extent. Essential oils are very strong, and when taken in the manner required, are likely to multiply a cascade of toxicity. Inhibiting the enzymes that break these compounds down doesn't seem smart. They would build up in the system and provide unknown/untested effects on the body. And including piperine/pepper in the mix is only increasing the revipe for disaster. It inhibits a BBB transporter and allows more chems to pass directly into the brain.

I beleive that the more unhealthy your organs are, the more likely these combinations are to work. The cinnamon bark's part of the equation is to remove glutathione from the liver, that is one of the main antioxidants and a good sign of liver resilience. Maybe the mix didn't work on me because I have been supplementing with adaptogens for a few months, things like bupleurum, sulfurophane, schizandra, MSM, alkaline ionized water etc. Which are known to boost liver enzymes. I really began to question, is this mix basically undoing all the beneficial effects on my body, so a chem can slip through the defenses and get me high? It appears so.

Also most of these oils would be conscidered "hot" oils in multiple schools of though about herbs. They bring a chemical/energetic heat into the body which can throw off different balances and processes. Many people have too much heat to begin with, these herbs can unbalance the body and bring heat/stress to the liver especially. In someone who smokes and eats a lot of red meat etc, this could really put a lot of strain on the liver.

Here is a short trip report of what I tried, I am writing this on day 3 after thinking about everything and feeling the toxic effects. Definitely doesn't seem to be worth it and doesn't live up to the hype some pages seem to promote.

Day 1 I tried:
[I had pomegranite/blueberry juice earlier which might of killed the effects via quercetin]
3 biotin gummies (mistaked this for vit b9)
In drops:
4 cassia, 5 citral
1-2 sweet flag/calamus
1 piperine/ashwaganda cap (20mgs)
2 clove bud, .8 chamomile german,
100+% of DV of magnesium and calcium
2 trace mineral pills
(Waited about 45 min then)

Ate in coconut oil:

4 basil chavicol variety
1 parsley seed
And maybe some other oil

I felt good, an increase in energy and wellbeing but it really just seemed to be from the initial cinnamon dose (which was well above toxic levels of coumarin already.) There was a very slight sparkle it seemed, but not a nice euphoria anything like a psychedelic.

Day 2
In drops when applicable:
5 b50 complex (about 60% dv of folate)
7 a-bisabolol
4 clove bud
300mg berberine (then got a capsule of 300mg stuck in my throat due to a pretty heavy esophagus cramp! This happens to me at times but seemed to be triggered by the experiment)
2 blue chamomile (german)
6 citral
1/3 piperidine/ashwaganda cap(7mg)
About 1 cup of coffee with vanillin and cinnamon powder
40% of DV of magnesium
2 trace mineral pills
(Waited about 45 min then)

Dermally I put on about 15 drops of elemi, 4 basil chavicol, 10 parsley seed france

And rectally I used 1-2ml of nutmeg oil at 33%
Then redosed about 2ml maybe an hour later.

I felt something psychoactive, like some sort of very light, non euphoric stoniness which lasted for 3 hrs or something.

I then delt with the capsule being stuck in my throat/throat spasm all day!! It just wouldn't back down like normal!

At the end of the day I felt like crap, hardly any food or water all day. My legs starting to cramp (which is very rare for me, I never cramps or get twitches and I eat a pretty mineral rich diet.) And a pretty solid dysphoria seemingly from the toxic load. An uncomfortableness and inability to sleep until about 4 am. The throat cramp did release and I slipped into sleep for a few minutes. Thank God because I really needed some water. Who knows how that increased the toxicity but definitely didn't feel good.

If you want to trip just get some regular psychedelics! This stuff sucked! I'm glad I didn't get organ failure or something!

 

[G_Chem]

While I’m not really a big believer in the oilhuasca theory, you did it completely wrong by mixing a bunch at the same time. Then you don’t know what did what.

I see you took Clove in both experiences, Clove is actually a potent psychoactive I’ve found by accident. It builds up in the system but can fuck one up if enough is taken in one dose. It’s not a good feeling, a sedating Stoney feel that gets one nauseous any time they try to stand up. It can last 12-24hrs. It sucks.

My thought would be that you’d need to focus on only 1-3 components instead of dumping a lot in at once. Because if they work at all, they likely need to overcome a threshold of enzymes to be able to take effect.

-GC

 

[falsifiedhypothesi]

This smells like either pseudoscience or a method of dosing DMT through the possible trace amounts in certain "essential oil" plant extracts

 

[NolanG]

I didn't feel like taking the time to explain the whole theory and the research I did for the tests. But I don't think I really took much extra stuff. The initial 3-4 main oils are to inhibit the enzymes that inactivate the main component in the goal psychoactive (although yes, most of them are psychoactive in themselves.). In the first test my goal psychoactive was the methyl chavicol. In the second test it was myristicin found in nutmeg, elemi and parsley seed.

The other ingredients are to shift the process towards activation supposedly.

The idea is that it produces mdma and mescaline type chems in the brain. It's not pseudo science, it get's pretty technical really. But yeah it's not proven to result in any know psychedelics, it's more of a hypothesis some people have built up information around. Supposedly people have had results with different methods, but I can't find any reports on it specifically.

 

[Anonymous Dissident]

Theres at least a possibility that elemicin could be a mild psychoactive. Myristicin from nutmeg oil is known to be one of the few known non-nitrogenous compounds that serve as an agonist at 5HT2a receptors. Much more controlled trials are going to be needed to determine the actual effects of these compounds in pure form, not as a small percentage of an essential oil that has other, far less desirable compounds in nb them as well. I'll get around to elemicin at some point, but definitely not a high priority...

 

[NolanG]

Theres at least a possibility that elemicin could be a mild psychoactive. Myristicin from nutmeg oil is known to be one of the few known non-nitrogenous compounds that serve as an agonist at 5HT2a receptors. Much more controlled trials are going to be needed to determine the actual effects of these compounds in pure form, not as a small percentage of an essential oil that has other, far less desirable compounds in nb them as well. I'll get around to elemicin at some point, but definitely not a high priority...

Im not denying it's psychoactivity, but I don't think it's a worthwile material. Yeah maybe the other oil constituents distort the effect. Although I beleive myristicin is know to be hepatoxic. I think mixing psychedelics with toxic materials isn't a good mix. Because psychedelics increase the awareness of your body, so you will notice the toxic load even more.

 

[Anonymous Dissident]

Im not denying it's psychoactivity, but I don't think it's a worthwile material. Yeah maybe the other oil constituents distort the effect. Although I beleive myristicin is know to be hepatoxic. I think mixing psychedelics with toxic materials isn't a good mix. Because psychedelics increase the awareness of your body, so you will notice the toxic load even more.

The nutmeg experience isn't entirely unpleasant, if the essential oil fractions were to be separated and the positive effects could be obtained without the terrible, long lasting side effects, it could be a fairly worthwhile experience. That's why I'd like to se each compound from these essential oils studied individually, and assayed by people with no other psychoactive drugs in their system. We'll never know with any certainty otherwise. I dont reccomend that people go down massive amounts of random essential oils though, too little is known about their toxicity as of now.

 

[Neuroborean]

The nutmeg experience isn't entirely unpleasant, if the essential oil fractions were to be separated and the positive effects could be obtained without the terrible, long lasting side effects, it could be a fairly worthwhile experience. That's why I'd like to se each compound from these essential oils studied individually, and assayed by people with no other psychoactive drugs in their system. We'll never know with any certainty otherwise. I dont reccomend that people go down massive amounts of random essential oils though, too little is known about their toxicity as of now.

It's more or less "well-known", studying different forums, that both olive oil extraction of actives of plain nutmeg and nutmeg essential oil can be quite active without being as toxic as normal nutmeg intoxication.

 

[pkt]

Ayahuasca is not a drug to try at home IMO,i can tell you there is a reaso that shamans make you take a special diet for several weeks to release a bunch of toxins from your body and they also guide you through this strong experience minute by minute.

 

[thebreadsticks]

We aren't talking about oral dmt. This is "oilahuasca" - wtf ever that is.
BTW - it doesnt matter if you only eat mcdonalds. Ayahuasca will pretty much always cause the purge (projectile puke). Has nothing to do with toxins or anti oxidants or any other pseudoscience nonsense.
If you think oral DMT is cool, you should try smoking some along with a MAOI. Doesn't matter if theres a shaman there or not, because youll be on a different planet.

 

[Neuroborean]

We aren't talking about oral dmt. This is "oilahuasca" - wtf ever that is.
BTW - it doesnt matter if you only eat mcdonalds. Ayahuasca will pretty much always cause the purge (projectile puke). Has nothing to do with toxins or anti oxidants or any other pseudoscience nonsense.
If you think oral DMT is cool, you should try smoking some along with a MAOI. Doesn't matter if theres a shaman there or not, because youll be on a different planet.

well, I'm more or less well versed in psychedelics but I only brokethrough once with vaped DMT
for me it was so crazy that I still have some respect about trying again... after +1.5 years (almost 2).
Nowadays I think about trying again, but it's surely something so crazy, that not every human being should try, because a lot of them won't be "prepared", some won't even feel proper respect and owe about it and some other can get traumatized... so IMO it's a super tricky substance.

 

[thebreadsticks]

well, I'm more or less well versed in psychedelics but I only brokethrough once with vaped DMT
for me it was so crazy that I still have some respect about trying again... after +1.5 years (almost 2).
Nowadays I think about trying again, but it's surely something so crazy, that not every human being should try, because a lot of them won't be "prepared", some won't even feel proper respect and owe about it and some other can get traumatized... so IMO it's a super tricky substance.

you are 100% correct. but once again, this thread isn't about DMT. the term "oilahuasca" is just meant to bring hype and sell shit.
next time you smoke dmt, try to get ahold of a maoi. I recommend harmaline. smoke th.em together and learn what DMT can really do

 

[Phobos]

Ayahuasca is not a drug to try at home IMO,i can tell you there is a reaso that shamans make you take a special diet for several weeks to release a bunch of toxins from your body and they also guide you through this strong experience minute by minute.

Nothing special about ayahuasca that separates it from other psychedelic compounds taken at equipotent dosages.
If you can take a 10 strip at home you can take ayahuasca at home, and if you can't handle one you won't be able to handle the other.

Not everyone needs a guide and the special diet is just as useful on a physical level (toxins? You need to avoid foods that will cause an hypertensive crisis when you take the MAOI that is in ayahuasca) as it is to hype people up for the experience.

 

[Neuroborean]

the term "oilahuasca" is just meant to bring hype and sell shit.

Not sure about that, I think the enzymatic activations and changes of quality of different substances is very real and scientifically proven (I mean, some, but I cannot pinpoint the exact changes in metabolism)
same way grapefruit affects some stuff and star fruit affects others, or even some anti-depressants, can affect the effects of some stuff, and normally increasing them.
I'm pretty sure some allylbenzenes are active in mg levels but they are mostly inactive without CYP enzymes modulation and that's basically oilahuasca.
I read about 69ron, the accusations... all that. In my opinion the accusations in dmt-nexus were absurd and unbased. You can see quite a good bunch of people trying succesfully oilahuasca recipes in other forums like herbpedia.

 

[Skorpio]

I really have doubts that significant amounts of a styrene will be oxidized and then transaminated, even with inhibition of other enzymes.

I mean I would believe a little bit of somebody took a 12 panel and popped for mdma after doing a nutmeg based route (I assume there is cross antigen reactivity between mmda and mdma but it's not definate).

It is really hard to be honest about subjective drug effects, when on mind altering drugs.

 

[Neuroborean]

I really have doubts that significant amounts of a styrene will be oxidized and then transaminated, even with inhibition of other enzymes.

I mean I would believe a little bit of somebody took a 12 panel and popped for mdma after doing a nutmeg based route (I assume there is cross antigen reactivity between mmda and mdma but it's not definate).

It is really hard to be honest about subjective drug effects, when on mind altering drugs.

but in anycase, drug interactions exist and some are more than 1+1, I cannot believe anyone that thinks or says that we know almost everything about live metabolism (in vivo), it's just so complex (not saying that you think that, I'm just pointing that issue).
The reports of different mixtures of essential oils are there, and some of them seem to be more than 1+1, some synergy and some different effects that are difficult to understand. One of the most famous (perhaps a bit unrelated) is cinnamon and LSA, most people (not all) say that the effects are pretty different and shorter. I guess we need to look carefully into the real possibilities of in vivo experiments.

 

[Skorpio]

but in anycase, drug interactions exist and some are more than 1+1, I cannot believe anyone that thinks or says that we know almost everything about live metabolism (in vivo), it's just so complex (not saying that you think that, I'm just pointing that issue).
The reports of different mixtures of essential oils are there, and some of them seem to be more than 1+1, some synergy and some different effects that are difficult to understand. One of the most famous (perhaps a bit unrelated) is cinnamon and LSA, most people (not all) say that the effects are pretty different and shorter. I guess we need to look carefully into the real possibilities of in vivo experiments.

I guess my point is that there are a string of contingencies required for the metabolic transformation. For this to happen at a level that produces the corresponding phenethylamine/amphetamine for psychoactive effects (and the drugs formed are not exactly extremely potent) flux through these pathways must be enough to produce many fold the amount of phenylacetone as the active compound, as even with enzyme inhibition, there will always be alternate metabolic pathways.

I tend to have a very high standard of evidence for these things, and subjective experiences really don't cut it for me. I see scientests spend a lot of time trying to eke out relationships between pathways with similar amounts of contingencies, but with much stronger support from the literature frequently fail at connecting things, so I am rather jaded.

Honestly if people could show the phenylacetone precursor produced in significant quantities, it would go a long way toward convincing me.

Of course I don't believe that there is a complete understanding of in vivo metabolism. I just think with large claims like this, stronger evidence than "it feels different" is needed, as psyotropic drugs make everybody more suggestible. I mean even a good blinded test for the LSA adduct stuff would be leagues more evidence than i have ever seen for that.