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nothing to urgent but (lsa containing seeds)

freddurgan

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Technical reason for LSA sickness and how to avoid it?

Most recent OP from merged together threads:

Jabbajosh posted:
With my previous experience on these seeds i wasnt sick. i think most likely because i didnt eat for a day. I did think that the motilium tablet i ate before hand might have stopped the said sickness. this is my second experience with the same amount of seeds. so nothing to worry about really. its just that i feel nauseous and need to be sick but am not sure weather i should be sick now and waste some of the seeds?( i am fully coming up) or be sick further on and possibly ruin the trip. Help would be greatly appreciated

original post:

Well, apparently getting sick on LSA is due to

Carcinogenic Glycosides

AKA, similar chemical in apple seeds and many other plants.

Now, in a cold water extraction, it's obvious that the carcinogenic glycosides are extracted into the water. If you EAT the seeds, you ingest the carcinogenic glycosides.

I've done a cold water extraction, and ate the seeds, and both times I got SOOO sick.

Isn't there any way to not absorb these glycosides? The only thing I can think of is a sublingual method? Does anyone know about glycosides and saliva? I don't think it would be any different. Saliva is majority water anyway.

Anyone got any ideas?
 
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Dreaming With Dope

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I dont know man... ive read up on washing them with detergent, but when i tried that, i got even sicker than my first time.

I think smoking weed helps, my friend ate 6 bags of Heavenly Blues and smoked a bunch of weed while eating a sandwhich and he didnt puke.

Aside from that im not sure, but i really wanna trip on LSA without booting!!
 

bluedolphin

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Don't eat LSA in any form. Seriously.

If you look at all the trip reports on Erowid, you'll see that an even higher proportion of people have "bad trips" with extracts vs. just eating the seeds straight up. This goes for HBWR and MG seeds.

The active LAAs themselves are responsible for most of the side effects which you want to avoid.
 

BilZ0r

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Well, apparently getting sick on LSA is due to Carcinogenic Glycosides
I think you mean cyanogenic, nor carcinogenic. There's lots of debate over this, I'm no expert, but I'm preety sure it doesn't matter how you extract, but the rumour is, only the seed coats of HBWR contain the glycosides.
 

fastandbulbous

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Ergoline alkaloids

The alkaloids in HBWR, as well as being hallucinogenic, are dopamine agonists (and derivitives such as bromocriptine), and dopamine agonists are very good at making people do the big spit (apomorphine is a dopamine agonist that is very good as an emetic). That's why opiates make you vomit

To get an ergoline compound that is hallucinogenic, and is less prone to causing vomiting, you need LSD. The nausea/vomiting is an intrinsic part of HBWR intoxication. Best bet is to use cannabis (or some other anti-emetic)
 

fizzacyst

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^ Off Topic: Does bromocriptine have any medical use? I can think of only one reason for having it.
 

fastandbulbous

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Medical bromocriptine

It's sometimes used to treat cluster migranes, but I think it's like methylsergide, in that it's a "last resort" drug for that condition. It's also been used in the past for Parkinson's disease
 

cellvia

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i defatted and then did alcohol extraction. i experienced no nausea whatsoever and was blessed with one of the most pleasent, euphoric trips ive ever had. the body feeling was far superior to LSD, and the mental was calm, the visuals were there but not as pronounced as acid. i felt my heart bonds loosening and a sphere of warmth surrounding it about 6 feet in diameter.
 

BilZ0r

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bromocriptine can be used in pitiuitary disorders, which you get hyperprolactinemia.

Meanwhile, the debate about whether or the nausea is due to hallucinogenic alkaloids is an interesting debate, but I don't think there is much hard evidence out there to back any of it up.

I'm curious cellvia, did you acidify the solution before you defatted it?
 

fastandbulbous

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Not a big leap

No evidence that I can find of studies of nausea associated with morning glory/HBWR ingestion, but as very closely related compounds like methylsergide (ie assorted N-substituted lysergamides) are known to cause nausea when used clinically (and to be hallucinogenic when used in doses beyond theraputic range), I don't think it's so big a leap in activity that you can't say that the ergoline alkaloids would be responsible for a fair amount of the nausea after consuming HBWR/morning glory.

I'm not saying that there aren't other compounds that may add to the nausea, just that most of it will come from the actual hallucingenic compounds
 

freddurgan

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cellvia said:
i defatted and then did alcohol extraction. i experienced no nausea whatsoever and was blessed with one of the most pleasent, euphoric trips ive ever had. the body feeling was far superior to LSD, and the mental was calm, the visuals were there but not as pronounced as acid. i felt my heart bonds loosening and a sphere of warmth surrounding it about 6 feet in diameter.
Ok, questions.

1.) What is defat?
2.) The alcohol extraction. The only extraction method besides the acid/base extraction (which I'm not going to try) that I know if is this one. Tell me if it's what you're talking about

a.) Use a non-polar solvent such as petroleum ether (Naptha) to extract *something* from the seeds. What does the non-polar solvent extract? Also, which non-polar solvent should I use? Can I just use alcohol? 190 proof golden grain?

b.) One all the *stuff* is extracted, you use a POLAR solvent to extract what's left of the seeds, which should be the LSA.

Question - which polar solvent? Would water work? I'd like to buy as little as possible, and preferably use as few toxic things as possible. Water is pretty safe ;)

c.) you collect the polar solvent, dispose of the seeds, and let the polar solvent evaporate, leaving you with a yellow gunk which is mostly LSA.

Is that right?

Any clarification as to what the non-polar solvent actually extracts?

Thanks guys - this is a nice forum. Friendly, helpful replies all around.
 

fizzacyst

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Originally posted by freddurgan
Ok, questions.



1.) What is defat?


A step to remove fats, oils, and waxes from the mixture. You acidify the water. This will cause the basic alkaloids to migrate into the water. Then you add a non-polar solvent to dissolve the fats, waxes, etc. You then dispose of this solvent in an evironmentally sound matter, or clean it up and re-use it.


a.) Use a non-polar solvent such as petroleum ether (Naptha) to extract *something* from the seeds. What does the non-polar solvent extract? Also, which non-polar solvent should I use? Can I just use alcohol? 190 proof golden grain?


The non-polar solvent will extract the basic alkaloids. Alcohol is not ideal if you are supposed to use a np solvent. Methanol/ethanol is somewhat polar, and is probably better than water for what you'd be doing.. but is certainly not really ideal.


b.) One all the *stuff* is extracted, you use a POLAR solvent to extract what's left of the seeds, which should be the LSA.

Question - which polar solvent? Would water work? I'd like to buy as little as possible, and preferably use as few toxic things as possible. Water is pretty safe ;)


Water is a good polar solvent. I don't know what this guy is talking about though. If you soak everything in a NP solvent, it will take out the alkaloids. If you were to then try to extract the plant matter with water, you would just get nasty water. No goods.


c.) you collect the polar solvent, dispose of the seeds, and let the polar solvent evaporate, leaving you with a yellow gunk which is mostly LSA.

Is that right?


Depends on what you are doing. If you just used acidic water to extract, yeah.


Any clarification as to what the non-polar solvent actually extracts?

Thanks guys - this is a nice forum. Friendly, helpful replies all around.


The nonpolar solvent will extract the alkaloids (molecules with nitrogen).

Bear in mind there is very little drug in these seeds to begin with. You're going to lose a fair amount when you do this if you have these questions, as well. When you get done, its probably still going to make you nauseated. Maybe to a lesser degree, but you get no guarantee. The drug itself probably causes a lot of it.

Welcome to Bluelight.
 
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BilZ0r

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You don't necasarily have to acidify the solution to defat it.

And I wouldn't say that methanol or ethanol count as non-polar solvents.
 

freddurgan

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So...I'm a little confused.

I don't want to soak everything in a np solvent? Will it take out everything?

It seems like all this is kind of pointless, and water extraction is the way to go.

Last time I did 9 seeds, mashed up and put in a water/lemon juice mixture for 5 days, strained and drank. Very potent, but I got pretty sick.

I guess I'll just try a 5 seed water/lemon juice extraction, cause there is just too much conflicting information I'm getting.
 

fizzacyst

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I'm not saying they are non-polar. They are somwhere in between, really. But Ive had much better success for crude extractions with them than plain water. But no, don't mix them with (more) water trying to use them as a nonpolar solvent or anything.

freddurgan: I don't know if id leave fruit juice sitting around for 5 days before drinking it.
 

Limpet Chicken

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Remember, the lysergic acid derivatives aren't what you could call too stable, unlike the phenylthylamines, many tryptamines are delicate little things and need careful treatment in their handling, LSD is very sensitive to light and an inert gas blanket is used during its manufacture, I would recomend at very least working in a darkened room when preparing LSA.

Recrystallise at least five times, preferably more, and do so with great care if you wish to prepare LSA, IMHO it is a pretty foul substance suitable only as a possible precursor for LSD.

Would dichloromethane perhaps prove a suitable solvent, its pretty aggressive in extracting the goods, then careful acidification/basification in hexane, then recrystallising several times from a low BP solvent, DCM or diethyl ether would be good as they are both pretty volatile.

Take great care when using ether, either buy it pure or distill from absolute ethanol and concentrated sulfuric acid through a long retort to keep the distillate away from the heat source.

Do not store ether that you distill for any length of time as it is prone to formation of highly explosive and unstable peroxides, commercial ethers like diethyl, isopropyl and THF are usually sold mixed with a very small percentage of peroxidation inhibiting chemicals to prevent formation of aforementioned exploding nastiness.
 

cellvia

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all i did is:

grind and soak in naphta for a short period (defat)

filter out the mush and let it dry COMPLETELY

soak this in alcohol for long period (extraction)

filter out solids

i didnt have to acidify or basify and there was definitely no nausea, and i took about 35 seeds worth cause i initially thought the stuff wasnt working... i didnt realize how slow the come up was til then. but yeah any nausea would come from improper extraction. meaning either you didnt let the naphtha evaporate compltely from the seed or you ingested some of the poison thats initially on the outer shell
 

BilZ0r

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So you didn't even really defat... if you had defatted, you would have soaked seeds in naptha, filtered and thrown out the naptha.

Still, thanks for the info.
 
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