News - WA's Deadly ecstasy risk - Sunday Times 18/9/05(**New: response from journo**)

[trevorpaddenburg]

G'day guys. Trevor here - the bloke who wrote the Sunday Times story. Thanks for the feedback and the criticism. You're definitely right - more research wouldn't go astray, although this is not always possible when you have some pretty tight deadlines. That's why I rely on the so-called experts and the police... people who are quoted in the story. It's not me making up the stuff about MDEA... it's come from the head chemist in the WA Chemistry Centre.

Anyway, I'd like to get it right in future stories and the best sources are you, the people who write to forums like this. So tell me what the real issues are... Do you guys have concerns with what's in a pill? Is it all a beat-up by the police and the media? Are new batches becoming available all the time? Is it a bit of a gamble when a new type of pill arrives? Are their copy cat brands that mimic a good quality pill but are actually crap? Is everyone pilling at major festivals? Are big quantities available in WA?

You guys are writing in anonymously so there's no danger of being tracked down. Sure, it might give me an idea for a story and naturally I would have to throw a comment from the police in the yarn to balance it. But here's a chance to drive media content if you want to have a say. I'm a young guy, I'm not an anti-drugs campaigner out to push that barrow. So tell me what you reckon...

 

[Stuart]

i think this would be a push for the Sunday times..
maybe a article on harm reduction. it could possibly be a radical and extreme view (from all the conservatives out there) but how the problem is not going away and we want testing and lab analysis of what we are taking.. we do not want to get sick or possibly die!

Real issues - harm reduction, and the risk we take when we go out that we could get a criminal record for just one pill on us and rely mess our lives up! the government in WA has decriminalised marijuana - something many experts. (i use the term experts lightly) believe can be much more serious than MDMA
new batch's come out all the time. just check pillreports.com

Is everyone pilling at major festivals?

i do not want to go on the record of answering that question.

Is it a bit of a gamble when a new type of pill arrives?

it is a gamble with ANY street drug u have. it's a gamble with prescription medicine! that's why we test our pills, check pillreports.com and ask other people who have tried them.. we are even known to refuse to take pills on the grounds that they have failed a reagent test or they have made people sick.

Are big quantities available in WA?

i think the answer would be yes... just like any state in Australia. but i doubt any of us would be able to acquire them very easy.

Are their copy cat brands that mimic a good quality pill but are actually crap?

definitely, it's the same with anything in the business world that becomes profitable. take a ipod for example, there is now many copy cat ipods out there.. many are crap.
same with Von dutch clothing.. there is more fakes out there than genuine.
at the end of the day the chemists/importers are just in it to make money


Please see what you can do about an article on harm reduction, some time or another the government is going to have to accept the harm reduction model (like most of Europe has!) we will continue to take the risk (one statistically compared to alcohol, smoking, speeding) is not likely to kill us (by no means am i saying it never will) but we want to be looked after.

/end rant

 

[Stuart]

Using the standard reagents I doubt you could tell any difference. P_d or CBM may be able to correct this.

hence why some in the dud batch (mitzi's) where showing a positive reaction for MDXX but you where unable to feel anything of them?

 

[Phonic]

G'day guys. Trevor here - the bloke who wrote the Sunday Times story. Thanks for the feedback and the criticism. You're definitely right - more research wouldn't go astray, although this is not always possible when you have some pretty tight deadlines. That's why I rely on the so-called experts and the police... people who are quoted in the story. It's not me making up the stuff about MDEA... it's come from the head chemist in the WA Chemistry Centre.

Anyway, I'd like to get it right in future stories and the best sources are you, the people who write to forums like this. So tell me what the real issues are... Do you guys have concerns with what's in a pill? Is it all a beat-up by the police and the media? Are new batches becoming available all the time? Is it a bit of a gamble when a new type of pill arrives? Are their copy cat brands that mimic a good quality pill but are actually crap? Is everyone pilling at major festivals? Are big quantities available in WA?

You guys are writing in anonymously so there's no danger of being tracked down. Sure, it might give me an idea for a story and naturally I would have to throw a comment from the police in the yarn to balance it. But here's a chance to drive media content if you want to have a say. I'm a young guy, I'm not an anti-drugs campaigner out to push that barrow. So tell me what you reckon...

I'm affraid you won't get answers to allot of your questions as not only is trust in any media low, but some of the question are counter productive to what most people on sites like this want. Now as stated by stuart an article on harm reduction will get you allot of support adn information.

Enjoy your stay. :D

 

[trevorpaddenburg]

Harm reduction along the lines of testing and lab analysis could be a good angle... I take it a lot of people have their own testing kits. Are these readily available? From where? Are they reliable?

Do you guys want to see something formal in place with the government or some organisation where you can get an official test done on a pill with no strings attached? How would this work? I saw another posting on a system in the US i think, but this involved sacrificing a pill and paying a hefty fee for the test as well. Would that work in Oz or is there a better way?

 

[fcuking_in_heaven]

Test kits are readily available from 'speacialist' stores around the countyr or you can purchase them on the net through harm reduction sites. However these kits are not accurate enough to tell us whats in our pills. Thats why we'd like to see a government backed pill testing facility, preferably GC/MS capable. We could safely know exactly what we're taking (or not, in the case of adulterated pills) and make an informed decision.

fcuk in hevaen

 

[potato]

OK, first of all I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are who you say you are, and not a troll.

phase_dancer or else some of the Enlighten crew would be best at answering your questions regarding pill testing. Try www.enlighten-hr.org for contact info.

I guess the biggest issue people on this forum have with articles such as the one above is the innaccuracies and sensationalism regarding pill adulterants.

If the paper take take an angle to make an adulterant sound worse than it is, it will. For example, referring to Ketamine as animal tranquilizer, when it has a long and productive history of use as an anaesthetic in humans. Another example would be 'cough medicine' - I can only assume that refers to DXM, which is indeed present in some decongestants, but also has significant other effects.

I understand the problem of having to communicate what these adulterants actually are in a way that is meaningful to the public - hence describing them in terms the public is already familiar with, such as 'pesticides' or 'animal incontinence medication', but sometimes it gets a bit much.


What is far more worrying is the presence of by-products of the reaction processes in pills. Many of these by products are not well known or documented, and the range of compounds that may be present is limited only by the many different reaction routes that may be used.

The 'lawyers and labourers' that buy pills obviously dont want these adulterants in their pills, but a lot of what you describe, whilst they may cause an unpleasant experience or not be what the person wanted (ie MDMA), are not actually that harmful. Ketamine, DXM, and many other adulterants are chemicals with documented medical applications and are not particularly harmful.

(Incidentally, does anyone know what compound they'd be referring to with the animal incontinence meds?)

Fair enough you are getting a lot of this information from what you view as reliable sources, but clearly they are not when they claim such things as MDEA 'could well be carcinogenic' when there is no supporting evidence in the scientific community.

As a journo you'd obviously be very aware of the biases and agendas present within different groups. Perhaps take what some of these groups are saying (including us of course ) with a grain or 10 of salt in future.

 

[Strawberry_lovemuffin]

trevor I just updated the thread title and hope that sparks some more replies for you [edit: I see potato has replied... cool].

We are NOT all so jaded we won't communicate with the media: there are many people here who will answer your questions and provide some thought-provoking topic ideas I'm sure. I personally can't see how we can ever possibly expect to get our opinions across without opening up some kind of dialogue with the media - *especially* popular mass media! - in spite of whatever issues there are with trust, accuracy and bias. It just has to be done, or more lies and misconceptions will flourish.

 

[phase_dancer]

It's not me making up the stuff about MDEA... it's come from the head chemist in the WA Chemistry Centre.

Could you ask your source for a scientific reference to support this claim?

I have done a fairly broad search after reading your article and can find no mention of MDEA being reported as carcinogenic. The metabolic pathways established by various researchers don't indicate any metabolite that may be considered carcinogenic, at least in relation to the references I've been able to find.


While you're at it, perhaps the Chemist could also explain by what mechanism/s MDEA is formed as a side reaction product to MDMA synthesis.

Methylamine or nitromethane (insitu MA production) is employed during the reductive amination process to produce MDMA and in that light I concede that if "hobby shop" sources of nitromethane were used, and if that contained any small amount of nitroethane, then a relative amount of MDEA would be produced.

However, I believe that sourcing nitromethane via model shops would not be practical in most circumstances. As another over the counter source for nitromethane exists, and the quantities sold would normally be in the order of 1 liter or greater, it's deemed likely that nitromethane used for insitu formation of methylamine would be sourced via this means. To my knowledge, this product does not contain appreciable amounts of nitroethane.

The other usual clandestine methods of methylamine production begin with either ammonium chloride and formaldehyde, or if difficult to obtain, then from hexamine. I'm not aware of ethylamine being reported as an impurity in this process.


Perhaps the good chemist was referring to safrole as a possible impurity that is [listed as] carcinogenic? In which case I agree that there is potential for liver cancer.



Thanks for replying to the criticism trevorpaddenburg. Most journalists don't seem to bother with any form of direct followup.

 

[Cowboy Mac]

Harm reduction along the lines of testing and lab analysis could be a good angle... I take it a lot of people have their own testing kits. Are these readily available? From where? Are they reliable?

Do you guys want to see something formal in place with the government or some organisation where you can get an official test done on a pill with no strings attached? How would this work? I saw another posting on a system in the US i think, but this involved sacrificing a pill and paying a hefty fee for the test as well. Would that work in Oz or is there a better way?

I suggest you get in contact with us, Enlighten. We have been conducting on site reagent testing for five years in Victoria, and three years in SA. You can find our contact details on our website. If you havn't heard of us by now then you will surely hear about us from the Club Health conference. In fact I suggest everyone keep there ears and eyes peeled for news on the 29th/30th of this month.

 

[swifty]

It's hardly a shock that the sunday times comes out with a load of bollox and twaddle...

It's bascially the print media version of TodayTonight.... I actually thought it was a comic strip....

 

[potato]

P_D why dont you email Colin Priddis and ask him directly to clarify the information he's provided? I was going to do it myself but you seem much more familiar with the literature and I dont have access to journal articles (or lack thereof ) regarding carcinogenicity of MDEA.

His contact details are:

Colin Priddis ([email protected])
Illicit Drugs
Phone: +61 8 9222 3052 Fax: +61 8 9325 7767
Location:
Chemistry Centre (WA)
125 Hay Street
East Perth
Western Australia
6004

Let me know if you email him, otherwise I definitely will seek further info.

 

[phase_dancer]

Harm reduction along the lines of testing and lab analysis could be a good angle... I take it a lot of people have their own testing kits. Are these readily available? From where?

Yes, many posters on this board own their own kits. I can say that these kits are generally considered readily available, both from online sources and from certain retail outlets.

Are they reliable?

Testing kits are somewhat limited as an analytical method. They are classified as presumptive tests, which, as stated in the accompanying literature, can give an indication only of the possible presence of a range of compounds. They cannot identify impurities from side reactions of a synthesis, nor can they adequately identify combinations of drugs. However, when several reagents are employed, mixtures can often be indicated.

Advice accompanying the kits states that they should not be used as conclusive evidence, and any results should be further confirmed by an analytical chemist, employing more sophisticated forms of analysis.

These test kits, termed spot test reagents are based on formulations published in forensic and analytical literature.

Do you guys want to see something formal in place with the government or some organisation where you can get an official test done on a pill with no strings attached? How would this work? I saw another posting on a system in the US i think, but this involved sacrificing a pill and paying a hefty fee for the test as well. Would that work in Oz or is there a better way?

Yes, I think I speak for most Bluelighters and harm reduction supporters in saying that Government sponsored testing is needed. However, there is quite a lot of red tape involved in establishing such a testing center, and cost is another problem.

As sending prohibited substances through the mail (Aus post) is a criminal offense, the only other practical method of submitting a tablet would be through amnesty bins at allocated drop off points.

This subject has received considerable discussion on this board. Try the search engine and limit searches to this forum.

 

[phase_dancer]

P_D why dont you email Colin Priddis and ask him directly to clarify the information he's provided?

Done

[edit]

Well that was a quick reply....

From the email received:

The reference to MDEA as a carcinogen is a misquote. I had stated that MDEA is commonly seen in illicitly produced tablets and I had further said that many byproducts can be produced during illicit manufacturing processes and that the identity, toxicity and even carcinogenic nature of these is not completely understood.

Many thanks to Colin for responding so quickly

 

[trevorpaddenburg]

Colin is right when he says he didn't say MDEA or any other substance in pills was definitely carcinogenic. In fact in the original story he is quoted as saying it ''could well be carcinogenic'' and that "when you manufacture these drugs you get all sorts of by-products and (in many cases) what effect they have toxicologically just isn't known". And I assure you he was accurately quoted in those comments.

But yeah, for your info we do have to generalise a bit and sometimes sieze on the most newsworthy (or sensational!) aspect of a story because my editor is never going to publish a yarn that gets too scientific and doesn't keep the attention of the average reader. Anyway, will look into the pill testing side of things. Cheers for the replies

 

[xcidium]

So the title of the article
WA's Deadly ecstasy risk
Pills contain cancer chemicals
Is incorrect?? (incorrect as in, not true, or proven)?

 

[Cowboy Mac]

But yeah, for your info we do have to generalise a bit and sometimes sieze on the most newsworthy (or sensational!) aspect of a story because my editor is never going to publish a yarn that gets too scientific and doesn't keep the attention of the average reader.

You are doing your reader an injustice by not reporting the truth. This is the problem with the media, and everyone from the police to researchers acknowledge it. Misquotes continually cloud the real issues and the truth should not be manipulated and presented incorrectly for the sake of a sensationalised story. How do you feel about the mother that reads your story and now thinks their child is prone to cancer?

The real issue here is that it is not a controlled market, so what do we do about it to reduce potential harm? Has zero tolerance worked? What effect has the recent media campaign has on existing/future potential users? How about a government sponsored GC/MS program as other countries have demonstrated? Why not go to the effort to look at the research literature and see what kind of effect such measures have had on adulterated pills.

 

[drplatypus]

Pill testing

Hi Trevor
Good on you for taking an interest- it's more than most of your colleagues do! Many of the answers to your questions are regularly addressed in the pages of Bluelight. The evidence supporting pill-testing is difficult to refute, and the real story here is how the current government has managed to tie itself in knots trying to take a moral or law enforcement stand on what is essentially a health issue. If you are really interested in these issues, I suggest you contact either Johnboy, or Cowboy Mac, both of whom are presenting at the Club Health conference in Sydney next week. The world of drugs research is changing, and the Drug Warriors are about to be left behind....!

 

[Strawberry_lovemuffin]

You are doing your reader an injustice by not reporting the truth.

It appears to me then, that the problem lies with the editors, sub-editors and senior heirachy in the newsroom, not necessarily with the journalists. They are a product of the environment in which they earn their wage.

Still, it would be nice if some brave journos did try to get the truth told. Enough of them and it would be hard for the higher-ups to ignore. Trevor, what they are doing is understandable in terms of sales, but deplorable in terms of the journalistic code of conduct. Having worked as a journalist for 5 years myself I know all of the pressures you are facing, but don't bend more than you have to, mate.

The current approach is not working, and you guys have a serious responsibility towards us, because you speak directly to the gullible. More harm can be done than you know.

Kudos again for listening.

 

[fcuking_in_heaven]

trevor, maybe you could write an article on the international war on drugs and its huge failure. The current round of TV commercials supposedly showcasing everyday events in the lives of drug users has failed miserably. The only point it seems to have raised is that of pleasing the conservative voters of this country. The money spent on those plainly ridiculous ad's could have been better spent supporting enlighten, codeblue or dancesafe (sorry if i missed any other significant HR orgs). The government / conservatives / narrow minded people of this country need to realise that we're not going to stop taking drugs. The least they could do is make it as safe as possible for us.

fcuk i nheaven