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News - G use on the rise

Cowboy Mac

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Originally posted by surrealthoughts
cowbow mac the quote from the lyceaum was from someone who purchased a industrial grade 44 gallon drum and drank it continously over many months. naturally i have many problems with such an 'experiment'.
the article also gives no reasons for toxicity other than a similar chemical structure to anti-freeze (which can have no bearing on toxicity.)

The lyceaum link was an example of an anecdotal experience which holds true for many users of 1,4b. If you think that everyone is being sold AR grade 1,4b you are probably in for a suprise as AR grade chemicals are much more expensive than an industrial grade - this is what I can only assume is the more common on the street by logic. phase_dancer provided some good links, and anyone who has had GHB compared to 1,4b will give similar anecdotal reports that prolonged use of 1,4b will give more worrying side effects than those produced from GHB use.
 

buck_reed

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As a contributor to this article, we essentially were speaking about GHB and it's precursor chemicals as a single entity.

Anecdotally, those of us who are managing GHB overdoses and intoxications on the street belieeve that GBL and 1-4B are increasingly the substances being used, both because of the cheap prices reported by bystandards and patients and the unpredicatable relationships between dosages and effects (unconscious on 2ml of GHB? I think someone's probabaly given you and industrial solvent pal...)

Regardless of the exact chemical involved, the clinical effects of GHB, GBL and 1-4B are essentially identical. The management is also the same. Without blood toxicology there is no way to tell what it was when we are managing overdoses and intoxications in the field, nor does it really matter for the initial firt aid care.

The research into GBL and 1-4B is very minimal and scetchy at this stage, largely because event hospital emergency departments can;t tell the difference without significant testing. The study cohorts of 1-4B and GBL overdoses are normally only in the dozens at best so we don;t have really solid data on the effects of these drugs.

What is alarming, as my collegue Paul Dillon pointed out, is the increasing use of the drug. Two years ago GHB was also exclusively an inner city gay drug, now it shows up at straight under 18's functions in the west. (I think Katoomba Hospital had their first case the other day...)

The young straight community had only a minimum of knowledge about this drug and the result is a new breed of users who are putting themselves at risk with poor information and inappropriate overdose management (speed, crystal meth and ice cubes are not the answer kids...)

I hope GHB discussion continues, because we have a unique opportunity to get ahead of this issue before it becomes a more serious issues causing knee jerk reactions by government and law enforcement.

Cheers,

Buck
 

phase_dancer

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Thanks for the info buck_reed

I believe the knee jerk reaction from governments has already occurred in the case of GBL, although many may think further restrictions could be applied with 1,4B. I doubt very much this would be feasible as vast amounts are used in industry every day.

The same applies to GBL. Although it is now more tightly restricted than before, this chemical is contained in many formulations used in everything from farming to plastics. I wouldn't mind betting some is being brought into Australia under this guise.


I've read several papers describing the metabolism of 1,4 and GBL, as well as reports saying the presence of GHB in blood can be ascertained if tests are done within a couple of hours of administration.

My question is:

With Std hospital analyses procedures, can the presence of 1,4B or intermediate metabolites be detected so as to discern it from a dose of GHB? I realise GBL is fairly quickly metabolised into GHB, but 1,4B is a bit slower so I was thinking that maybe it's presence would be detectable for longer.
 

Cowboy Mac

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buck_reed: I understand what your saying from a medical treatment perspective as far as GHB/GBL/1,4b being the same when treating an overdose, but from a user perspective they are very different feelings. I personally don't agree with your assumption that GBL is commonly sold on the street as GBL is widely recognised as a illicit precursor and due to the simple conversion from GBL to GHB, i think anyone going to the effort of obtaining GBL would convert it to GHB. People have had to move to 1,4b as it is less tightly regulated both in industry and by law as GBL, which makes it seem clear why it would be more common than GBL.
 

buck_reed

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To address a few points:

1) I agree that the 1,4-B Experience and the GHB experience may well be different for users. My comments were solely that when presented with the overdose phase, all three drugs appear almost identical in their clinical effects.

2) My comments re: precursor chemicals being sold as GHB come from both conversations with other paramedics and AOD workers as well as recent observations regarding clinical effect and dosages, My last 4 "GHB" overdoses were all people who had consumed less than 6ml with no reported use of alcohol AND were purchsed at cheap prices. Le4ss than 6ml is not normally a dose of GHB which, in my experience, is likely to cause profound unconsciousness.

3) I don't think the government's reaction to GBL and 1,4-B has been truly knee jerk yet. Remember, these are known industial chemicals with industrial applications. The precursors are not yet illegal, but are now regulated. 1,4-B is a floor cleaning solvent and there are people with industrial cleaning companies with substanial quanities of it. These now need to be registered and tracked. This seems reasonable as while it may be the right of a consenting adult to put these chemicals on their body, I think noone would want a litre of this stuff to show up at the local high school disco. THAT sort of incident would bring a governmental and law enforcement reaction which would certainly cause many people some headache.

I am pleased that the discussion on this topic has been open and balanced so far.

I can't emphasise enough how little information there is on these drug, especially outside the user community. Many of us are working hard to try and educate those in the law enforcement, health and counselling areas, to realistically balance the risks of these drugs, and users need to be a part of this as well. Ambos and police finding people dragging their clearly unconscious mates into the backs of vans and telling health professionals they don't know what they are doing (which admittedly sometimes they don't) will not illicit sympathetic responses from government services. This sort of things was the basis for the infamous (and now hopefully recended) "ARQ rule" between the NSW Ambulance Service and NSW Police which was in place late last year.
 

BigTrancer

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Le4ss than 6ml is not normally a dose of GHB which, in my experience, is likely to cause profound unconsciousness.
This is entirely dependent upon the concentration of the solution of GHB... or 1,4B.

BigTrancer :)
 

Cowboy Mac

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buck_reed said:
My last 4 "GHB" overdoses were all people who had consumed less than 6ml with no reported use of alcohol AND were purchased at cheap prices. Le4ss than 6ml is not normally a dose of GHB which, in my experience, is likely to cause profound unconsciousness
As BT touched on GHB, GBL and 1,4b can all be doses less than 6ml dependant on the dilution factor and it isn’t wise to assume it is a specific substance based on the active dose. GHB is usually more than 6ml dose because during the synthesis it is diluted to be at a more manageable volume per dose. It is possible for a GHB dose to be in a very small volume, especially if converted to a powder form it could conceivably be in the few ml range. Of course when you are treating the overdose symptoms it matters little what chemical they actually took.

Anyone who is able to source GBL and convert it to GHB I would hope would be someone of higher intelligence than your regular idiotic g dealer and would therefore follow the recommended dilution and dying procedures to make the final product safer and less conducive to overdose.
 
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