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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

NEWS : 15.5.09 - Police put drug-drivers on notice: you will be caught!

Irresponsibility is not worthy of criminal penalties. That's not justice.

Perhaps it's morally acceptable to use as a modifier being totally mashed/stoned/tweaked/drowsy as a part of the sentencing decision process. But unless they otherwise violate traffic or criminal law, it's absolutely ridiculous that driving under the influence of alcohol or other drugs should be prohibited or punishable.

Drug drivers who otherwise break the law should just have more severe fines or penalties for the violation of that law. The drug or drunk driving itself shouldn't be illegal at all.

You're a fucking idiot. Would it be alright if instead of driving, our hypothetical drunk, drugged-up friend was walking around a busy pedestrian area with a loaded gun, waving and pointing it around, shooting it into the sky? Hey, he's not harming anyone, it would be absolutely ridiculous to punish him just for being a bit irresponsible like that, right?

P.S. I hope a drunk driver hits you and puts you in a wheelchair for the rest of your life.
 
You gota be fucking kidding me? Drunk's behind the wheel are a danger to everyone on the road and people walking past. Me thinks you might be just trying to justify your own bad habbits?

I hope every drunk and drug driver gets nailed by the coppers. It's for their own good and everyone elses.

I don't even drink alcohol. I just have a problem with laws against risk, instead of laws against harm. Being a danger to others doesn't hurt anyone until there's an actual accident.
 
What is the detection period of THC in such a test?

I'm still baffeled as to how this kind of testing:

a) Proves the driver was actually under the influence, and did not just have trace amounts.

b) Proves intent to drive under the influence - drugs in your system doesn't mean you were willing to ingest them!
 
proves you have thc in system from like 12-24 hrs ago ...

they then take you for blood tests to determine when you last smoked ..

but the problem is a chronic user ... say someone who smokes half a gram before going to bed would still fail the roadside test but not be under the influence ....

then going to court to fight that can be costly and most people just pay the fine and get on with things ... 3 months loss of license ... $600 fine or something ..

Police should test you and then say you have thc in your system and aslong as your eyes aren't bloodshot and you dont seem stoned you should get a warning ...

Drinking lots of alcohol night before and stop at 12am ... go to sleep wake up at 9 or 10 am get behind the wheel feeling fine , get rbt and your over ... again not fair ... but atleast with alcohol you can eat a big breakfast before driving and alcohol is reduced in system. A shame same thing dont work for drugs ...

this is why i not happy because I smoke alot in the afternoon but I will not drive , next day I am fine but its in my system ... its unaustralian to be fined for this ..
 
but atleast with alcohol eat a big breakfast before driving and alcohol is reduced in system.

This isn't true, all that having a big brekky is doing is taking more time before driving.

Time is the only thing that will aid with sobriety.
 
I've never been tested. What does it actually involve?

Are the aforementioned drugs the only things they test for?
 
breatho for alcohol and a swab in your mouth for saliva to test for drugs
 
Yep its just a swab, I got caught not that long ago. I wasnt under the influence at the time but had a big mix the night before.

This is where the system fails.
 
Police don't care... you use drugs and you're the scum of the earth, doesn't matter if you're under the influence at the time or absolutely fine with just residual traces left. No way would they want to make things 'fair' for drug users.
 
I wonder if the test is just for residue left by the intake of drugs or something else?

Maybe this is a signal for the resurgence of ecstasy plugging xD
 
nah - even if stick it up your rear, i am sure your saliva will still become equally affected (and your blood, of course) as it would have if snorted or swallowed. drugs, however they get into the system, will register.

apparently red plax mouthwash and vinegar can destroy trace amounts. if you swig it beforehand... only hearsay though :p
 
I don't think the swabs are overly effective either, i have known a few people who have been on something earlier in the night and had been swabbed yet came up negative to drugs. Perhaps drugs like marijuana are more effective to the swabs then certain powders.
 
I think the only fair way would be to have a test that can tell if you have consumed something in say last 12 hours hypothetically. After 12 hours you are usually unaffected by most things unless you have a lot or too much!
 
A TAC employee at one of those 'Vanessa' vans at a music festival told me that their official policy was to tell drivers to wait a minimum of 45 minutes before driving after consuming anything (Interestingly he had the same line for pills and weed which differs to my limited reading on the subject).
The unfortunate reality is that since drugs are illegal and there is no real right to consume them here there is little need for the police or other bodies to justify charging individuals for trace amounts. That said he did reassure me that they did only search for the active content of drugs so there must still be some effect taking place, even if only at a minute level
 
I suppose the issue for me with all the sensationalist media around roadside drug testing is that these measures don’t test for impairment. They merely test for the presence of the drug in question. That in itself does not mean an individual is impaired. To state the obvious, impairment effectively means an individual cannot perform the task at hand that they could do under normal circumstances. Bla bla bla, you know the drill.

In this situation, worst case scenario, the consequences of driving while impaired have the potential to kill. So the question could be asked if you have the presence of one of these 3 testable substances in your system does that mean you’re impaired? We know that there is a statistical relationship between the amount of alcohol consumed and the subsequent impairment levels one experiences as the amount of alcohol consumed increases. But this does not run true for the testable drugs in question: MDMA, Cannabis and methylamphetamine, impairment levels vary for each individual and from drug to drug.

To put it simply, if 4 people were busted in a roadside blitz, one for alcohol, one for MDMA, one for cannabis and one for meth. The individual with the blood alcohol reading is assessed by a fairly accurate school of science that we know works. There is a measurable cut off point of 0.05 (BAC), if you have an open license. If you’re under you’re fine if you’re over you’re busted.
The other three are guilty based solely on the presence of the substance, no measures, no cut offs and interestingly no differentiating between how each of these substances effect each individual relative to the other substances. You may be completely trashed or fine to drive, the test doesn’t measure for this either way.

On closer examination we have the various state governments making grand statements,

“Police put drug-drivers on notice: you will be caught!”, bla bla bla.

Stories wiped up by the various government media departments. To achieve what? If it was to reduce the incidence of drug related carnage on the road you have to question is this an effective strategy? When you consider;

“Since the introduction of RDT, 34,335 motorists have been screened for drug use – 757 tested positive for illicit substances”

It doesn’t take a statistical genius to ascertain that the numbers aren’t that good. Even I can calculate the numbers. (I’m flat out running a bath let alone a budget) The strike rate is dreadful. Particularly when you consider the costs of such a campaign.

If nothing has changed over the last few years, the police are still using the same saliva tests. I could be wrong. (Phase – Dancer, I think you would be up on the current science around this and possibly costs?)

A couple of years back the initial, in your car test cost $40 each. Do the numbers, @ $40 a hit, multiply by 34,335, this makes it roughly 1.3 million dollars for the first test alone. The second test, after you’ve tested positive on the first one is about $80. I can’t speculate on how many of these $80 tests would have been used. On top of this you have the costing on these operations, plus the costs of the precious drug buses. This is a multimillion dollar operation, to achieve what?

What we have are 750 individuals testing positive for the presence of a substance, not impairment. Remember this is not a scientifically sound, evidenced based initiative that definitively measures for impairment but an operation that pretends to be founded on good science. It’s amazing what good media teams can throw together. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Just tell the public it works and no questions asked. Outside of the issue of how many of those 750 individuals would not have been impaired, how many individuals beat the test when maybe they should have been prosecuted?

I know I’m asking a lot of questions that clearly don’t have answers and I must stipulate that I am completely opposed to people driving when they are impaired. The point I’m getting to is this, is it ethical to run such a campaign when it could be speculated that it’s a witch hunt? Does the prosecution of random individuals, act as a means to an end. Or is this effectively, The Drugs Misuse Act, through the back door, after all, they’re being busted for the presence of a substance and not impairment? Effectively for using illegal drugs?

I did try to do a Bluelight search on some local northern NSW research posted approx. around 2007 that answers a lot of the above questions about time frames after using etc. and when is it safe to drive. Couldn't find it though.

What i do rememeber is that with one test subject he had his morning joint and cuppa and was tested an hour later and tested negative. The same individual 2 days later, same routine, same cannabis, same morning cuppa and he tested positive up to if I remember correctely 4 hours later.

These guys did the testing: http://www.hempembassy.net/hempe/testaliva.html

I do know for a fact that the testers were not trashed, just the subjects.
 
I am unsure about other states, but as far as I am aware this applies to atleast WA. The police are not trying to say just because it is in your system, you are under the influence. They are saying that because it is in your system, there is the possibility you are under the influence, and given that it is harder to tell with drugs than alcohol (given the testing equipment they have), they are going to have to assume worst case scenario. Given what they are attempting to do, and the equipment at their disposal, this is the best approach. I am not trying to say this is what they should be doing, this is just what they are doing. It would be much better if people were only charged if they were actually intoxicated with the drug, and had lowered motor skills/reaction time, but effectively testing for this and all drugs is far too costly and time consuming to warrant doing it. Plus, unless you are the drug user, this seems like a perfectly reasonable approach, as DRUGS ARE BAD.

Furthermore, I believe that in WA atleast, and possibly in other states, there are different penalties for having it in your system and being under the influence. If you are very clearly fucked up, you will get the heavier charge, but even someone pretty messed could probably pass a sobriety test.

Also, having the drugs in your system doesn't mean you know they are in your system, that is true. However in many cases people ingest drugs knowingly, and having someone slip amps or e into your drink isn't exceptionally likely. Similarly, it would be possible for someone to feed you alcohol without you knowing, but that defense probably wouldn't stand up in court.

Edited to contribute to what Trickster said: There is no way for the police to accurately tell if you are currently intoxicated, or had the substance in the last 24 hours. However, as you said, *if* you were intoxicated, you have the potential to kill. If someone has a highly increased chance of killing or causing injury to themselves, it is necessary to remove them from the situation which allows them to do so.

it's absolutely ridiculous that driving under the influence of alcohol or other drugs should be prohibited or punishable.
No, it is perfectly reasonable. A car is a heavy piece of machinery capable of travelling at high speeds. They are very dangerous when operated incorrectly. Would you let a surgeon use a circular saw on your head during brain surgery if they were drunk? Would you go bungee jumping if the person who set up the equipment had been taking amphetamines/acid/any other intoxicating drug? Unless you are completely retarded, then no, you wouldn't. Why? Because you would be putting yourself at massive personal risk as a result of someones inappropriate substance use.

So then, why would you put others aswell as yourself at risk, by performing an inherently dangerous activity while intoxicated? There is no reason, and even stupidity is not justification.

(I can understand that people who are under the influence of drugs or alcohol will make the decision to drive as a result of being intoxicated, when they wouldn't have if they could be sober to make the decision. While it is never acceptable to put others at risk like that, it is a mistake which some of us make, and hopefully learn from. I am only saddened by people who think intoxicated driving is ok, or consistently put themselves in situations where they will end up driving while intoxicated, even if they think it is bad.)

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TO SUM IT UP: Yes, it is retarded that you could be charged for driving your car while you are not under the influence of drugs. However, given the large cost of trying to find people driving under the influence of drugs (as addressed by Trickster), minimising cost is important. They cost effective method the police have chosen does not discriminate between people who have the drug in their system and those who are under the influence. This is a trade off which they have to make to make the project viable.

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Thus, I pose the question to BLers. If the only method of breath testing was able to tell if someone had consumed alcohol in the past 24 hours, do you think it would be acceptable to let the person keep driving? You have no other information about their state aside from "They have consumed alcohol in the past 24 hours".
 
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So then, why would you put others aswell as yourself at risk, by performing an inherently dangerous activity while intoxicated? There is no reason, and even stupidity is not justification.

Killing and hurting people is already illegal. There should continue to be laws against that. When a drunk driver actually hits someone, they are arrested for actual crimes like reckless driving, vehicular manslaughter, assault with a deadly weapon, etc.

Taking risks should not be illegal. Only causing actual harm to real people in practice.
 
“We currently have three drug testing trucks available to us for intelligence-based deployment across NSW,”

In Victoria the drug testing vans a re strategically placed according to intelligence to maximise the amount of arrests for Drug Driving e.g. park outside of a rave. what I am wondering is whether this has harm reduction implications and how to get around them. I agree with many in this forum that drug driving has some inherent risks of harm not only to the driver but to others, but if parties or other venues are being targetted what other initiatives are put in place to ensure the punters can get home safely?
 
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