Need help with young people and subs????

[Keif' Richards]

I'm pretty offended you didn't call me first @Iceman1216. What's the point in having the phone number of one of History's greatest junkies if you won't use it? Sidebar, my phone is cracked and a replacement is in the mail. Anyways....................

I was already preparing for one of my signature diatribes, long, winding, 90% of which is me being a jackass, but I'm gonna try to be succint here.

Maintenance is a miracle, plain and simple. It comes in many shades. Some folks use maintenance as a means of stepping down in a more relaxed fashion to complete abstinence. This will often entail a few months of usage and then an attempt at abstinence.

Here is an analogy. Let's say you have trouble sleeping. It's a big issue for you and you're trying to get it under control. There are undoubtedly many factors that have led to your insomnia, some are idiopathic and some are due to things out of your control and some that are in your control. You investigate what others are doing to deal with their issue of insomnia. You find that the following things are all important in getting healthy sleep and maintaining healthy sleep habits in turn.

- Laying down at the same time every night

- Not watching TV/being on the computer

- Avoiding Caffeine

- Using supplements like Melatonin prior to lying down

So, what is going to best enable your success? Presenting a United Front and doing all of these things at just the right time, religiously. You don't drink coffee til nine, do Facebook til ten, then pop a melatonin at 11 and hope to be well rested by your alarm at 6. Does this not make perfect sense?

In my experience, sobriety is just like this. We all are well aware of what can be done to help us maintain stability and stay on the right track.

- Support groups. This can be whatever the hell works for you. For me, 12-step meetings have always been great. Perhaps therapy. Whatever... accountability. Support. Fellowship with others who have similar goals.

- Exercise and proper diet (I know, I know, I even laughed a little bit myself when I typed these words)

- Non drug-related pursuits like work, family, friends

- Staying away from people, places and things that are not conducive to keeping clean. For a lot of us starting out, this translates into EVERYTHING THAT YOU CURRENTLY KNOW AND DO.

- Medication, including maintenance

My main point is this: Maintenance is not a silver bullet and I have never met a single soul for whom I can truly say otherwise. There is a large subset of people in treatment who believed this and now just use the fact that their Opioid habit is checked off to use their money and time on other drugs.

I talk a lot about the recent rise of Methamphetamine in my home area of Boston/New England. I know many people who are on the clinic who are now hopelessly addicted to Meth and also heavily dependent upon Methadone.

Maintenance is a miracle, really. The answer to your question Mike is, yes, it can be like magic, but only if someone is willing to make all of the necessary changes in their life. It doesn't solve the problem. It doesn't truly fix anything. But, it allows you time to figure out every single other thing besides Opioids in your life that you're doing wrong. Once you feel you've fixed these things, then you can attempt to withdraw from maintenance.

I also believe that many people will never get off maintenance successfully and are better off on it and I think the stigma of chronic maintenance is detrimental to the self-esteem of many people.

 

[Opi_Kid_Rock]

Hi guys, I am working with a young man ( 18 ) and he is taking 16 mgs of subs already ? Is there any known problems with being young and taking subs?
he really thinks that they are his get out of jail free card?

I do understand that much better than Dirty 30s

I am not against 12-step but I prefer to use a wide range of knowledge to treat addiction. I think the main factor for the kid is his mindset towards getting clean. That is, is he contemplating getting clean at the moment or is he not at that stage yet(stages of recovery). If the kid is not even thinking about getting clean then by taking any commanding tone or dragging him to meetings isn’t going to help but may even be counterproductive. If he is not thinking about getting clean, then the best we can do is to communicate unconditional support and compassion and for us to be used as a resource for him when he IS ready to get clean. No pushy words directed to him about sobriety, always ‘unconditional positive regard.’

 

[Las Veghost grower]

I raised my sisters kids, all three of them (my sister is the oldest kid, then my brother, then me). I was 15 and in high school when she had her first. She ended up having 3, all by different fathers, and all while getting as fucked up as possible. She had to get her tubes tied to stop procreating. This is not a disputable fact. I actually raised them. She fucked all of my friends too, all of them. She really has no credibility with me with this sobriety bullshit.

I have never even really met my brother’s kids, because I am not in AA and I am not free from chemical. Someone that is on “chemical” (yes he actually says “chemical”), cannot be part of his family’s life unless they are 3 years clean from “chemical” through the 12 step program.

My mother had me in the 12 step program since I was nine. I knew it was a cult back then too.

The worst part is now she’s 4 and insanely smart for her age, I’d like to think the way I raise her has something to do with her being so down to earth at such a young age, but anyway it’s when she asks for “mama” and I have to constantly tell her oh she’s at work, she started preschool a couple months ago and I think all the other kids talking about their mom n dad is kinda messin with her, it’s tough to watch sometimes

 

[dragonix]

I belonged to a Cub Scouts cult once was never molested I heard Boy Scout molestations are on the rise?

I also heard opiates are one of the go to escapes for sexual trauma experienced at a young age

I went to a self help group once at a meeting in an outpatient clinic run by an older guy on Suboxone he didn't make it seem like it was temporarily he needed it for his pain and to stay off opiates

 

[Iceman1216]

I have never met my nieces and nephews because my brother requires me to be completely sober (NO CHEMICAL) for three years in AA. That sucks! People take AA way too seriously, and act and do things that cult members do. I’m a big harm reduction/ recovery help person (as you know)! I was forced to go to Alanon/Alateen growing up. AA is a fucking cult!

Dude that is Fucking Harsh!!
I got sober and clean in the 1980 in NYC, and No one I have ever met was that big of an AA natzi ?? But I can believe that they exist!!
So sorry for your dysfunctional family situation!! What does your brother think that if someone is Not in AA/NA they will cast a spell on people and have them drink and use???

The Whole program is ATTRACTION not PROMOTION!!
Again sorry for the sour taste in your mouth, for it

 

[Iceman1216]

I am not against 12-step but I prefer to use a wide range of knowledge to treat addiction. I think the main factor for the kid is his mindset towards getting clean. That is, is he contemplating getting clean at the moment or is he not at that stage yet(stages of recovery). If the kid is not even thinking about getting clean then by taking any commanding tone or dragging him to meetings isn’t going to help but may even be counterproductive. If he is not thinking about getting clean, then the best we can do is to communicate unconditional support and compassion and for us to be used as a resource for him when he IS ready to get clean. No pushy words directed to him about sobriety, always ‘unconditional positive regard.’

He has been asked to attend 12 step meeting or go to rehab ( by his parents) I walked in to a meeting and he was sitting ther. After a couple of meeting he asked for a ride home and we started talking!
he wants all the bad shit to stop that is happening in his life due to drugs and alcohol.
ODs-arrested-sick etc.
I have advised him to take the 90 day (very high end rehab his parents are offering), but he thinks that his life will be over??
I know the truth is he is Not at a bottom yet to get his attention?? I hope that his is not another Od and death

 

[deficiT]

There are a lot of benefits to maintenance. The only thing I'd advise is to not put the idea in his head that he "can't be sober" if he's taking Suboxone. I have heard this line from some AAs I know, and I don't really appreciate it. One dude, that I otherwise really respect, wouldn't even take someone on as a sponsee if they're using Suboxone. I think that's bullshit.

That said, most people in AA are far more reasonable than people make them out to be. There are some hard asses you might meet, but you can always just go to a different meeting, or talk to others if you don't appreciate the crowd somewhere. I really only go to a couple meetings a week, and talk to my sponsor once a week maybe. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

 

[Keif' Richards]

I have never met my nieces and nephews because my brother requires me to be completely sober (NO CHEMICAL) for three years in AA. That sucks! People take AA way too seriously, and act and do things that cult members do. I’m a big harm reduction/ recovery help person (as you know)! I was forced to go to Alanon/Alateen growing up. AA is a fucking cult!

What the fuck? People are fucking ridiculous. Drug use is not a condition that automatically precludes being around respectable humankind. This makes my stomach turn. It's not about drugs, it's about the behavior. Yes, if you literally cannot stop smoking Meth for ten seconds and are talking to your little fam about aliens and government drones in their toothbrushes and shit, yes, I understand, but even then, it should be a pretty basic understanding. To deprive one of their own family in the absence of abuse or serious harm is ridiculous.

Maybe you can't babysit or be responsible for a 3 day disney trip. I get that, but no contact with family stipulated in such a way sounds to me like there's someone looking perfect on a high-horse, atop a golden pedestal of morality. Goddamn, my grandmother is a teetotaler and had to be practially carried out of my cousin's wedding reception. Things happen and people make mistakes. I say, good behavior is rewarded and that is how life works. Maintain stability, get some visits in, display you're okay to be around the kids and the cycle continues until you are labelled a full-fledged adult.

My cousin is a dentist. She is as sparkly as a person can be. She could be a total bitch. We have frank discussions about my drug use and even this teflon dentist cousin of mine would never not let ler kids climb all over me a couple times per week. If you're curious, check out my review of Paw Patrol in the film thread.

 

[Keif' Richards]

I'm pretty sure you can't train a dog to sit for 3 days just by telling him he can have 3 days worth of treats at the end. Someone making these demands has no knowledge of human or animal kind and how brains learn and respond to stimuli. Dick.

 

[Las Veghost grower]

What the fuck? People are fucking ridiculous. Drug use is not a condition that automatically precludes being around respectable humankind. This makes my stomach turn. It's not about drugs, it's about the behavior. Yes, if you literally cannot stop smoking Meth for ten seconds and are talking to your little fam about aliens and government drones in their toothbrushes and shit, yes, I understand, but even then, it should be a pretty basic understanding. To deprive one of their own family in the absence of abuse or serious harm is ridiculous.

Maybe you can't babysit or be responsible for a 3 day disney trip. I get that, but no contact with family stipulated in such a way sounds to me like there's someone looking perfect on a high-horse, atop a golden pedestal of morality. Goddamn, my grandmother is a teetotaler and had to be practially carried out of my cousin's wedding reception. Things happen and people make mistakes. I say, good behavior is rewarded and that is how life works. Maintain stability, get some visits in, display you're okay to be around the kids and the cycle continues until you are labelled a full-fledged adult.

My cousin is a dentist. She is as sparkly as a person can be. She could be a total bitch. We have frank discussions about my drug use and even this teflon dentist cousin of mine would never not let ler kids climb all over me a couple times per week. If you're curious, check out my review of Paw Patrol in the film thread.

The new paw patrol movie was really good !, what’s fucking stupid beyond stupid is the paw patrol movie toy set dosent come with liberty, that’s my nieces new favorite pup(use to be marshal) and they don’t even sell her toy in the movie toy set, beyond dumb…but my favorite movie that my niece makes me watch 1000 times is Ralph breaks the internet, tangled is really good too and the Frozen movies arnt that bad either, I actually like frozen ha

 

[Las Veghost grower]

It’s either AA or nothing with him. I chose nothing and still managed to get sober. It wasn’t my decision to not know his kids. It was his decision to exclude me and I honored that. I had nothing to do with his life either. He lived in Boston and I lived in Cincinnati. He moved to Cincinnati a couple of years ago and said his family would have absolutely nothing to do with me unless I was in AA. It’s tough love AA all day with my family. It’s a fucking shame.

I would say if you know their birthdays still send them gifts, it’s not their fault and eventually when they get older they will prolly want a relationship with you anyway

 

[Las Veghost grower]

I really hope so? None of this is my decision.

*sorry for derailing your thread iceman

That’s why I say send the gifts, gifts really mean a lot to kids…unless your gifts get tossed and not given to them at all they will wonder who you are and eventually seek you out when old enough, so just keep sending them every year, no card just a present …sorry Ice I’m done hijacking your thread

 

[Iceman1216]

It is all Helpful boys!!
i have learned A lot about why some people have such a hatred for 12 step programs!!
I got sober/clean in NYS 1,000s of meetings a week. Everything and anything you wanted in a meeting.
My first sponsor, took me to a few very sketchy groups ( learned to love them, we where all the same, just drunks trying to get well)

so very interesting to me.
Update, my boy had a very rough day today!!
Got himself fired, had alcohol in his backpack at work ( a real no no)
and he is not legal

 

[deficiT]

It is all Helpful boys!!
i have learned A lot about why some people have such a hatred for 12 step programs!!
I got sober/clean in NYS 1,000s of meetings a week. Everything and anything you wanted in a meeting.
My first sponsor, took me to a few very sketchy groups ( learned to love them, we where all the same, just drunks trying to get well)

so very interesting to me.
Update, my boy had a very rough day today!!
Got himself fired, had alcohol in his backpack at work ( a real no no)
and he is not legal

Oh damn, sounds like you got a good old fashioned troublemaker on your hands. There's only so much you can do to help someone, sometimes people have to fall pretty far to realize they need a hand up. I wish you the best in your endeavors to help fellow addicts/alcoholics

 

[OpiateKiller]

Hello my friend, Suboxone is definitely better than street drugs but unfortunately at 16 mg he’s deeply dependent and addicted to opioids and getting off that dose is a painful road. One I’ve done many times though.

Suboxone works best for a true addict when abstinence from all other substances occur. But for a true addict like myself, I found it to not be possible.

If he wants to drink and smoke and pop benzos clearly he’s not truly ready to change and be sober. Which is sad because many people die before they ever truly have the internal desire to get sober. I know I should have been dead long ago.

The “I’m on Suboxone so I’m sober” mentality is not some safety blanket. If he’s willing to take benzos and drink it’s a matter of time before he skips doses to take dirty 30s or worse heroin/fentanyl.

I mean at 18 to be at Suboxone I’d have to sadly say he likely will become a heroin addict. Not to be bleak or negative that’s just so young to be dependent on opioids.

I think you need to talk some sense into him and get him to stop any drug besides his Suboxone. But shit if I was 18 I wouldn’t listen. But he is showing up to meetings? Maybe deep down he does want a better life. Find his true self and pull it out of him!! I cold turkey WD off 8 mg of Suboxone and 140 mg of methadone so if I can do it anyone can.

Suboxone is not harmless, personally I had severe constipation which almost became a medical emergency. There are dangers to it.

 

[Opi_Kid_Rock]

Hello my friend, Suboxone is definitely better than street drugs but unfortunately at 16 mg he’s deeply dependent and addicted to opioids and getting off that dose is a painful road. One I’ve done many times though.

Suboxone works best for a true addict when abstinence from all other substances occur. But for a true addict like myself, I found it to not be possible.

If he wants to drink and smoke and pop benzos clearly he’s not truly ready to change and be sober. Which is sad because many people die before they ever truly have the internal desire to get sober. I know I should have been dead long ago.

The “I’m on Suboxone so I’m sober” mentality is not some safety blanket. If he’s willing to take benzos and drink it’s a matter of time before he skips doses to take dirty 30s or worse heroin/fentanyl.

I mean at 18 to be at Suboxone I’d have to sadly say he likely will become a heroin addict. Not to be bleak or negative that’s just so young to be dependent on opioids.

I think you need to talk some sense into him and get him to stop any drug besides his Suboxone. But shit if I was 18 I wouldn’t listen. But he is showing up to meetings? Maybe deep down he does want a better life. Find his true self and pull it out of him!! I cold turkey WD off 8 mg of Suboxone and 140 mg of methadone so if I can do it anyone can.

Suboxone is not harmless, personally I had severe constipation which almost became a medical emergency. There are dangers to it.

Going around telling addicts what you think they “should do” will push them further away. Don’t choose to be that person.

 

[Iceman1216]

I can not just walk away and what an other young person Die in my community!
I truly know that I canNOT GET HIM SOBER/clean!,
but I can be a power of example that it can be done, sand I am here to help.
if he dies , another body to walk over and cry a little more

 

[OpiateKiller]

Going around telling addicts what you think they “should do” will push them further away. Don’t choose to be that person.

If you've had enough of the devil's grasp and insidious nature of active drug addiction, you'll listen to what you "should do" because you're willing to go any lengths.