Gabapentinoids Need help tapering off baclofen after substituting from phenibut

[Sciencechic1]

Going to try keep this as short at as possible. I had been addicted to phenibut for over about a year. Then this March just gone, I had experienced an accidental overdose that lasted for about a week. I had managed to get hold of the R enantiomer type which is about 2-3 times stronger. I had to rapidly reduce, and l I was left with a flat emotionless feeling that has never left me since and I experienced depersonalisation on a daily basis whilst on the lower dose of phen at about 7.3g.

I had sought help with a psychiatrist and he suggested switching straight over to baclofen... It was rather messy I dosed 20mg 4x a day and decided to add an extra 10mg at night as my muscles were spasming and twitching and depersonalisation experienced daily. Depersonalisation seemed to happen at same time every day at about lunch time?

It has been a little over two weeks since and I feel a little more normal than I have been but I am still not 100% - I am about 40% myself. After the first week, the doc recommended I drop 20mg as he thought 90mg was too much... I was experiencing side effects to the baclofen as well. I felt crap, fatigued, lack of concentration, poor cognition unable to function, twitches, shallow breathing, felt very cold, tinnitus felt weak for the past two weeks solid basically and feeling completely off from 90mg - 70mg. Then about 7 days after the 20mg drop I started feeling a bit better but I was still experiencing twitching, feeling really sleepy and shallow breathing but the depersonalisation disappeared! I feel mildly flat, I am able to feel slightly sad and slightly happy. Doc advised to reduce the dose 5mg everyday from the Thursday (7th day from 20mg drop)... Is this not too fast? So today I should be on 50mg down from 70mg last week. I felt the best yesterday in ages....but....

Today I woke up with heart fluctuating, tinnitus, photosensitivity, my hands and feet sweat, I feel mildly nauseous and my stomach cramps just after I take the bac. Doc says this is a side effect? I also get cold and my feet pinch or feel constricted at around 3 hours after taking baclofen. I had been experiencing this the whole time though whilst I have been on baclofen. The problem I have is I do not know whether to see this as a sign of withdrawal or side effects to the baclofen? Either way I do not feel well, and I notice I feel slightly irritable today with a mild headache, and this weird slight vice feeling around my head. I have been experiencing that vice feeling around my head intermittently these last few months but it is less severe now and not sure what that is? Doc seems to think I am on too much baclofen. However, I am worried I caused some kind of receptor death and my body is unable to function properly without the baclofen. I also really want to be off it but I can't cope with experiencing any further psychological issues again. I noticed my sleep the last two nights has been quite light, however I am sleeping. I am in absolute hell and I am not sure what is wrong here too much baclofen, or withdrawal? I am noticing that I have a lot more energy these last few days but I am not sure if its recovery from 20mg drop the week prior or feeling better from dropping 15mg these last 3 days? Muscle twitching has become less since dropping further 15mg as well or it could be from recovering from 20mg drop. I know it takes a couple of days before you notice withdrawal from bac.

I would rather come off this as safely as possible and as quick as possible if it is too much. It is hard for me to discern how I feel as I am quite flat... the only thing that goes haywire is my mind and body. I can't feel anxiety.

 

[Jekyl Anhydride]

Hi and Welcome to BL Sc1

Phenibut is a much stronger VDCC or Voltage Dependent Calcium Channel blocker than it is a GABA-B agonist. Baclofen is just the opposite, but should help quite a bit. I would imagine there's a far from complete cross tolerance between the two and some of these effects during the transition might be bothersome for awhile as your body readjusts to the lack of Phenibut.

I think the most important thing to use as a metric for your improvement is the getting slightly better every day or so. The loss of depersonalization is a big step in the right direction and any noticeable improvement over the coming days/ weeks is a sign things are progressing.

First & foremost I would follow the advice of your psychiatrist but if things aren't improving you might discuss short term, concomitant Gabapentin use as well. With your Doctor's blessing, smaller drops of Baclofen might also smooth things out a bit unless you are determined to make this as short as possible. Baclofen WD is usually accompanied by anxiety as well as spasm issues so determining if it's lingering Phenibut WD or Baclofen not covering enough symtoms will be difficult. I can understand the impatience of wanting this to be over but extra time might be beneficial if things begin to worsen with baclofen drops.

 

[Aeon Psyche]

magnesium is your best frriend to counteract the withdrawl of muscle relaxers.

 

[Sciencechic1]

Hi and Welcome to BL Sc1

Phenibut is a much stronger VDCC or Voltage Dependent Calcium Channel blocker than it is a GABA-B agonist. Baclofen is just the opposite, but should help quite a bit. I would imagine there's a far from complete cross tolerance between the two and some of these effects during the transition might be bothersome for awhile as your body readjusts to the lack of Phenibut.

I think the most important thing to use as a metric for your improvement is the getting slightly better every day or so. The loss of depersonalization is a big step in the right direction and any noticeable improvement over the coming days/ weeks is a sign things are progressing.

First & foremost I would follow the advice of your psychiatrist but if things aren't improving you might discuss short term, concomitant Gabapentin use as well. With your Doctor's blessing, smaller drops of Baclofen might also smooth things out a bit unless you are determined to make this as short as possible. Baclofen WD is usually accompanied by anxiety as well as spasm issues so determining if it's lingering Phenibut WD or Baclofen not covering enough symtoms will be difficult. I can understand the impatience of wanting this to be over but extra time might be beneficial if things begin to worsen with baclofen drops.

Oh thank you for your response. So what I am really experiencing is lingering phenibut withdrawal? Baclofen is just a gaba b agonist and phenibut VDCC more so than gaba b? I am also worried that as I had a massive tolerance to phenibut, I was experiencing pseudo withdrawal whilst on it and trying to taper was a nightmare! I might develop a tolerance to baclofen in no time and go through withdrawal whilst on the stuff? Is this possible? I am noticing that the higher the dose of baclofen the more muscle twitches I get? Or it might be coincidence as this happens every morning after I have had a few hours of no bac in my system and my morning dose is the highest dose?

Yesterday as I had the heart palpitations in the morning and felt a bit off, I bumped my dose of bac back up to previous dose by just 5mg so I took a total of 60mg. I added it in two separate 2.5mg increments in the evening and then this morning I woke up feeling off balance, wobbly and my head felt like it was bobbing about today. Then by early evening I felt stable balance wise but noticed feeling very nostalgic and emotional. Some emotions at last! I have not felt emotional in months so I welcome it. Is being off balance a sign of withdrawal or would this be from the baclofen? Just last wednesday I was on 70mg, I took 5mg off each day and then sat when I was on 55 I experienced the heart rate issue so I can't see how putting it up to 60 mg would have made me feel like that if I was already on higher before?

 

[Jekyl Anhydride]

At very high concentrations, phenibut reportedly also acts as an agonist of the GABAA receptor, which is the receptor responsible for the actions of the benzodiazepines, barbiturates, and alcohol.

This might be one issue as you were at fairly high doses for awhile. Baclofen won't activate gaba-A and is one issue of crossing over.

Phenibut also binds to and blocks α2δ subunit-containing VDCCs, similarly to gabapentin and pregabalin, and hence is a gabapentinoid. As such, based on the results of this study, phenibut would appear to have much greater potency in its interactions with α2δ subunit-containing VDCCs than with the GABAB receptor (between 5- to 10-fold).[9] For this reason, the actions of phenibut as a α2δ subunit-containing voltage-gated calcium channel blocker or gabapentinoid may be its true primary mechanism of action, and this may explain the differences between phenibut and its close relative baclofen (which, in contrast, has essentially insignificant activity as a gabapentinoid;, or a 26-fold difference in affinity)

I think this is the main issue in crossing over to baclofen, but like opioid replacement therapy the baclofen will be a BIG help in transitioning off a similar substance, phenibut. A tolerance will occur to baclofen and lingering phenibut tolerance will aid in this right off the bat but I think you wil find that stepping down off the baclofen won't be as bad as several grams of phenibut.

I do think 5mg cuts per day might be a bit fast with the symptoms you describe, adding more time or chopping 5mg tablets into halves like you have might aid in the taper if your psychiatrist will allow it. A slower taper I mean.

The rapid drop and your system adjusting to the loss of a VDCC is probably the cause of most of the troubles you described, but it will end. I would suggest a conservative dose of gabapentin as something to bring up to your doctor if these symptoms don't subside soon. Gabapentin is fairly benign with short term use as compared to the others as far as meds go and while it's not a gaba agonist it does lower glutamate levels which is a big part of the problem while in sedative/EtOH WD.