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My therapist dropped me cause I couldn't say I'll quit all drugs forever

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Mycophile

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I feel pretty bleak right now and needed to see what some fellow addicts think of this instead of just a therapist.

Let me say that the title isn't 100% the whole situation, but it's a big part of it.

I have a lot of problems right now like multiple substance abuse issues but I also have generalized anxiety disorder, depression, OCD, and some other things that would take more time to explain.

I have a lot of time on my hands and I'm not working over the summer and I'm so depressed that I just get fucked up too much and I know the best thing for me would truly be to quit drugs and alcohol forever but it's hard for me to literally say "I will NEVER use ANY drug EVER again or EVER have a sip of alcohol again starting today RIGHT FUCKING NOW".

Is anyone else with me that that would be hard to say?

And when I ask that question, it's better if the people who answer whether or not it would be hard are people who probably do realize that they have drug issues that make other mental health issues they have worse.

The thing is...I have stopped certain drugs for periods of time...Kratom for a year, weed for 988 days LOL (I counted), alcohol only for 3 months once but a few months here and there, etc.

I am able to say things like "I'll stop doing X drug for X amount of time" and I don't ALWAYS succeed, but sometimes I do.

I am able to say "I am going to stop doing this drug or that drug now or soon within the next few weeks, and then go as long as I can", and I am often able to go a while.

But I have not ever been able to say "I will quit all drugs forever right fucking now."

Because to me to say that just makes me freak the fuck out!! I feel I have a BETTER chance of success if I say "I am NOT saying this has to be FOREVER...but I know it is better if I DO quit forever....but because that's too hard to say, I am just going to say I will go as long as I can."

In fact, SOMETIMES I feel it is easier to stop using a drug if I say "I CAN use this drug EVENTUALLY again...just NOT NOW OR ANYTIME SOON."

It's a lot easier for me to stop something if when I start to crave it I tell myself it's not forever...and then it might end up being forever...but telling myself that makes me flip out and want to get high or drunk!!"


So, can someone else who has drug issues and mental issues tell me: am I crazy? am I wrong?

This therapist told me that that "I am wrong to say that I won't quit forever, that the only way to stop using drugs is to say FOREVER."

I think it isn't necessary to say you are quitting drugs "forever" to quit, and that some people are able to stop just by saying they'll go as long as they can.


I know drugs make my problems worse, but then this therapist told me, not only that he wouldn't see me again cause I wouldn't quit all drugs right now, but because "you have more than one major problem in your life right now, and I don't think I can help you cause I am just used to helping people who have one major issue at a time."

Am I crazy or is that a psychologist ADMITTING that he is VERY limited in his ability to help people?!!

What kind of people with REAL problems only have ONE single issue at a time??!!


It's like, imagine some guy goes to see a therapist and he has a drinking problem, a divorce, a daughter who won't talk to him, PTSD from fighting in a war and obsessive compulsive disorder, and doctors like this motherfucker would say "sorry, you have too many problems, I can't help you."

And I know that I should quit all drugs for as long as possible, and that my best chance for happiness in life is to quit all drugs forever (except MAYBE psychedelics) because they mess with my life too much and I already have a lot of issues to deal with to the extent that making them worse is just ridiculous....but I DON'T believe that to quit drugs you HAVE to use the word "forever."

This guy says you DO have to say that word.

I feel let down by this guy and kind of insulted being told I am too messed up for him to deal with me.

I figure the only people who can relate to this are addicts, so please guys, let me know what you think.

Thanks.
 
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sonicwhite

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Awe man, I’m so so so sorry. I have MDD W PSYCHOTIC FEATURES, OCD, PTSD, GAD.

The doc asked me am I using now? I said no, I don’t consider Kratom a drug.

I figured if I told him they wouldn’t help me w gabapentin.

Gabapentin is being clamped down because of the internet, I get it tho I truly do.


I see a therapist sometime after I get back from Virginia.

But, yes ppl w MI have several poly things going on. I remember when I had a therapist in 09. I told her about my Pure O OCD fears that I was going to hurt children, her condescending remarks and asking me have I ever hurt a child insulted me badly, then the theme changed to scrupulousity.


Oh well. I say just hang in there, keep your head up, you’re in my prayers!
 

Mycophile

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Awe man, I’m so so so sorry. I have MDD W PSYCHOTIC FEATURES, OCD, PTSD, GAD.

The doc asked me am I using now? I said no, I don’t consider Kratom a drug.

I figured if I told him they wouldn’t help me w gabapentin.

Gabapentin is being clamped down because of the internet, I get it tho I truly do.


I see a therapist sometime after I get back from Virginia.

But, yes ppl w MI have several poly things going on. I remember when I had a therapist in 09. I told her about my Pure O OCD fears that I was going to hurt children, her condescending remarks and asking me have I ever hurt a child insulted me badly, then the theme changed to scrupulousity.


Oh well. I say just hang in there, keep your head up, you’re in my prayers!
Thanks.

Now I just think this therapist was pathetic.

Honestly, it wasn't necessarily cause I didn't say I could commit to quitting all drugs forever that he dropped me, but actually, because he said I had more than one "major issue in my life" and he "usually only helps people who have one major problem" LOL.

I told a friend of mine who is a therapist that he said that and she said that that was ridiculous. I mean, I have drug problems, anxiety, OCD and depression and some other life issues, and my friend was like "that's ridiculous. Who goes to a therapist and only has ONE big problem in their life? Who has drug problems but ZERO other issues that made them start having problems with drugs?"

She's like "most people who have anxiety or depression also have the other and most people with drug issues also have some mental health issues and if this doctor can only help people who have one major problem then he's not a very good therapist."

I agree 100%. I think the guy was pretty pathetic to have said that and I bet he'd have been embarrassed if another psychologist heard him say that he "only helps people who have one problem in their lives."

That's basically advertising yourself as not very good at being a psychologist.


But the thing about drugs that I want to question you guys about is this:

Do you think if someone is going to be successful at quitting drugs, assuming they want to, that they literally have to say "I am going to quit drugs forever", or do you think some people who quit drugs do it instead by saying "I am just going to go as long as I can without using drugs or alcohol, but I don't know if it will be forever, but if I fall off the wagon I'll just get back on"??

Do you think that the only people who are successful at quitting drugs or alcohol are those who proclaim and state outloud "yes, I am quitting all drugs FOREVER"??


Cause the thing is, I am realizing more and more that I am a bad addict and REALLY need to stop all drugs and alcohol for as long as physically possible if I'm going to make the other necessary improvements in my life that I need to make.

I've come around to admitting I need to go to NA or a 12-step program and that I probably should have used the summer for a 30 day rehab when I had off of work but I can't now cause my job is starting up again soon.

I'm out of control with my substance use with numerous substances, mostly alcohol, Kratom and Dexadrine/Adderall, and sometimes a couple other things, and it's fucking me up badly.

But it's just that I can't yet bring myself to say "I am going to quit ALL DRUGS FOREVER" you know??

That's a hard thing to say, especially cause I really like certain drugs LOL.

In the past I have succeeded in taking long breaks from certain drugs, like a year off from Kratom and almost 3 years off from weed, by telling myself "look, you CAN do this drug again EVENTUALLY, but just not for a long time", and then when I freak out that I want the drug I tell myself that and I calm down and I end up going longer and longer without the drug.

But people like this therapist believe that a person literally CANNOT quit drugs by doing that. That you can't say "I'm going as long as I can without drugs, but I don't know how long, MAYBE forever, and maybe NOT forever" and they say you cannot say "I'm quitting for a long time, but NOT forever" simply as a way to trick your mind into making it easier to go without at that moment that you are craving the drug.


I told him I disagree, and that I think there are probably a lot of addicts who have gotten clean by saying "I don't know if I will be able to quit drugs forever, but I am just going to go as long as I can, and if I fall off the wagon I'll get back on."

He thinks that if you don't literally use the word "FOREVER" in terms of quitting, that you CAN'T get clean.


Do you guys agree or disagree with him?

Do you think people can get clean by saying "I don't know if I'm quitting all drugs FOREVER, just that I'll stop for as long as I can and take it day by day"??


Cause obviously for addicts the idea of quitting all drugs FOREVER is a pretty hard concept!!

I feel like you are potentially setting yourself up for failure by saying that if you are someone who craves drugs often because it is hard to wrap your mind around the idea of "forever" and probably makes a lot of addicts want to relapse that much more.

Cause I'm starting to really realize I HAVE to get clean badly, REALLY soon, from all drugs and alcohol, for as long as possible...BUT...I still don't want to say "I am quitting all drugs FOREVER and will NEVER EVER take a sip of beer again, have a grain of Kratom again, take a toke of weed again, from this day forth."

I told the therapist "I mean, at AA and NA they say 'one day at a time'" and he responded "they say that, but they mean 'one day at a time' AFTER deciding they are quitting all drugs and alcohol FOREVER."


That doesn't make sense to me, and seems like it's not one day at a time at all if you say "forever".


So, do you guys think it's really important whether or not you say the word "forever" in terms of getting clean, or do you think some people are able to get clean just by saying "I'll stop as long as I can but I'm not going to say how long"??
 

mal3volent

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To be honest, as far as the quitting forever question, I can see where both of you are coming from.

Your therapist is concerned because, most of the time when a person is truly ready to get sober, they do say I'm quitting forever. The "rock bottom" you always hear referenced leaves us with the inability to conceive of a future where we can coexist with drugs/alcohol in a healthy way. Our brains need to see it as a black and white life or death scenario in order for us to have a chance at succeeding.

In the back of your mind and in the back of your therapist's mind, you both know relapsing is an unavoidable part of the process. But regardless of that, most people have the goal to quit forever. Or at the very least that's the thought they project to themselves and those around them.

I see it from your angle too, you are simply being honest about your feelings and thoughts. Some might say you're establishing realistic goals. Or maybe trying to save yourself the disappointment of failing.

In ANY case, I think it was very wrong of your therapist to DROP you over this philosophical difference. A therapist's job is not to indoctrinate you with their own way of thinking. Sure they can try to lead you in a certain direction, but to abandon you completely...I can't wrap my mind around that.

Maybe it's for the best that you find someone new?
 

freesolo123

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Its not possible to treat mental health problems properly while the patient is using and its impossible to get a real diagnosis given the effects drugs have on our mental well-being.
 

mal3volent

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Its not possible to treat mental health problems properly while the patient is using and its impossible to get a real diagnosis given the effects drugs have on our mental well-being.
The disagreement wasn't over quitting now it was over the willingness to say he wouldn't ever use again at any point in the future.

At least that's how I understood it.
 

ageingpartyfiend

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Not much to say here except that your 'therapist' is a fucking joke and a disgrace to their profession.

What was their therapeutic orientation? (Humanistic? Behavioral? Cognitive? Psychodynamic? Integrative?). Just asking out of interest - bottom line is get a decent one that respects human beings instead
 

Phobos

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I have a lot of time on my hands and I'm not working over the summer and I'm so depressed that I just get fucked up too much and I know the best thing for me would truly be to quit drugs and alcohol forever but it's hard for me to literally say "I will NEVER use ANY drug EVER again or EVER have a sip of alcohol again starting today RIGHT FUCKING NOW".

Is anyone else with me that that would be hard to say?
I believe you are misinterpreting the words of your therapist, and he is misinterpreting yours.
What I mean is, you seem to be convinced that you by saying those words, will be bound to act following their meaning.
That is not what your therapist wants, he wants to see you wanting to do that, even if you will fail 100 times before you get there.
 

White_Rose

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Exactly Phobos. Everyone fails at first, but one needs to have goals. Perhaps if the OP would explain that quitting all drugs is your long term goal and at present you need to concentrate on quitting your DOC.
 

Mr.Deeds

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It sounds like your psychologist is asking you to do the impossible. Even if you said "Yes I'll stop forever.", from his experience with other patients he would know that this is an unrealistic expectation and wouldn't believe you whether or not you actually did stop.
As far as him telling you that you have too many "problems" for him to handle, he is openly admitting he is an underqualified psychologist. Dont listen to single word an underqualified "professional" says.

Get a new one Myco, there are much better options than that shitty guy. He obviously (well he actually told you haha) doesnt know what hes doing when it comes to treating patients.

Stay strong and sending good thoughts,
Mr. Deeds

P.S.
You should try to quit the drugs, but take it at your own pace. Focus on the one that is most problematic in your life, which I think is the kratom from your previous posts. After that you should evaluate how you feel and then decide what to do next.
 
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ageingpartyfiend

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I believe you are misinterpreting the words of your therapist, and he is misinterpreting yours.
What I mean is, you seem to be convinced that you by saying those words, will be bound to act following their meaning.
That is not what your therapist wants, he wants to see you wanting to do that, even if you will fail 100 times before you get there.
What the therapist does or does not want is irrelevant, or at least it should be

Again, get yourself a decent therapist who can work with you unconditionally (which is in itself a cornerstone of most psycotherapy models)
 

PtahTek

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if i see a therapist they wanna make me get clean... we doing ourselves a disfavor and are missing life. wtf? am i a skinny-pig? lol
fuck that
imma junky and gonna stay one
never say never as it sets me up for failure/disillusionment/disappointment/self-loathing
i do not hide it but am discreet
i wont lie about it if asked (unless u da popo)
i choose if and when
sometimes i fuck up
i get better shit from the streets and dont have to hear a bunch of psychobabble and kowtow to get em.
this does not fit their program so yeah... they gonna cut a MF off.
shit....
 

Mycophile

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Change your shrink dude,has a point about drugs not helping Mental Health.But your shrink dropping your because of drug use is lame as fuck,they almost go hand in hand.Completely understand where your coming from.New Doc best of luck.(y)
I'm getting a new one.

I mean I actually misspoke as that isn't the real reason he dropped me, even though what he said about drug use and addiction in general is what I wanted to talk about here.

He dropped me cause he said I "had too many problems and he's used to only helping people with one major issue in their lives" lol.

My friend who is a very good therapist said that that was really ridiculous and that the fact that he said that about himself speaks volumes about how he is probably not a very good psychologist as usually most people who go to see shrinks have more than one major problem in their lives. I think he was pretty stupid and I"m glad he told me early on that he couldn't be of help to me so now I won't waste any more time with him.
 

Mycophile

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Its not possible to treat mental health problems properly while the patient is using and its impossible to get a real diagnosis given the effects drugs have on our mental well-being.
Well I will admit that it is hard to treat someone who is making their issues worse with drug use.

I don't think I'd use the word "impossible" but what you are saying makes sense.

I don't need a diagnosis as I already know what I am diagnosed with, which is a bunch of things, mainly generalized anxiety disorder, some social anxiety, depression and OCD.

I don't need someone to tell me "what my diagnosis is", just to help me with my shit lol.
 

Mycophile

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To be honest, as far as the quitting forever question, I can see where both of you are coming from.

Your therapist is concerned because, most of the time when a person is truly ready to get sober, they do say I'm quitting forever. The "rock bottom" you always hear referenced leaves us with the inability to conceive of a future where we can coexist with drugs/alcohol in a healthy way. Our brains need to see it as a black and white life or death scenario in order for us to have a chance at succeeding.

In the back of your mind and in the back of your therapist's mind, you both know relapsing is an unavoidable part of the process. But regardless of that, most people have the goal to quit forever. Or at the very least that's the thought they project to themselves and those around them.

I see it from your angle too, you are simply being honest about your feelings and thoughts. Some might say you're establishing realistic goals. Or maybe trying to save yourself the disappointment of failing.

In ANY case, I think it was very wrong of your therapist to DROP you over this philosophical difference. A therapist's job is not to indoctrinate you with their own way of thinking. Sure they can try to lead you in a certain direction, but to abandon you completely...I can't wrap my mind around that.

Maybe it's for the best that you find someone new?
Again, even though that is the title of my thread, I misspoke in that that isn't the reason he dropped me, but rather because he thought I had too many issues to the effect that he just didn't think he could help me, but what I want to talk about is this disagreement and what other addicts think about these different ways about thinking about quitting or potentially quitting drugs.

I am just wondering if you and other people think that in order to quit drugs it is 100% necessary that the person think and speak along the lines of being 100% sure that their goal is to quit any and all drugs forever.

You seem to not be saying you necessarily think it is a set-in-stone imperative but that that is usually how people who get clean think and speak...am I right about that??

I mean, I just can't bring myself to say that I necessarily want to quit any and all drugs forever, and I also don't necessarily believe I can, and I also don't believe that it is a 100% imperative to quit that a person say they are certain they are quitting forever, whereas he's saying it is.

Honestly, while I don't really WANT TO HAVE to quit all drugs forever, and truth be told I don't actually want to quit all drugs forever, I do know it is necessary for me to stop most if not all drugs as soon as possible for as long as possible.

I just can't bring myself to say "FOREVER"...and I think if I tried to say it i'd just freak myself out and not even be able to bring myself to take a short break from substances.

I mean, the way I see it, there are 3 different approaches or ways you can take with quitting or temporarily quitting drugs, other than of course, trying to moderate, and they are the following (though if anyone thinks there's another approach they can say so):

1) like the therapist said, saying that you are quitting all drugs forever right now

2) saying that you DON'T KNOW if you will be quitting all drugs forever, or for how long you will stop, just that you should stop, and admit that yes, it would be best if it were forever, but that you aren't going to say forever, and you also aren't going to say NOT forever, or how long at all you will be stopping, just that you are going to stop and see how long you can go

3) saying specifically that you are going to take a break of a certain length from either certain substances or all substances...and USUALLY when I have done this I will say I'm not necessarily ONLY quitting for that length of time (lets say a year), but that I am quitting FOR AT LEAST THAT LONG...maybe longer, maybe forever, maybe not...but that that is the bare minimum for how long you are quitting.


I really tend to prefer either 2 or 3, but the question is whether or not WHAT YOU SAY AND THINK ABOUT HOW LONG YOUR ARE QUITTING REALLY MATTERS AS FAR AS YOUR RESULTS.

I can say that I have taken all 3 approaches before, and that none of them has led to me quitting the substance in question forever, but that when I have said "forever" I quit for longer periods of time than when I said "just for a year" for example, or that I am not sure how long I am quitting.

Here are my past experiments with these lines of thinking:


Exhibit A) With weed, I used to smoke WAY too much, and I wanted to take a break that was a year, and when I got to a year I decided to go longer and went 412 days.

Exhibit B) Then later I said "I am quitting weed FOREVER", (and I really meant it at the time) and I went 988 days.


Exhibit A) With Kratom once I said I am quitting for 3 months, and I did.

Exhibit B) with Kratom once I said "I am not sure how long I am quitting, but I SHOULD quit forever, and hopefully I can quit forever" and I went almost 6 months.

Exhibit C) with Kratom at one point I said "I am quitting forever" (and meant it at the time) and I quit for almost a year...11 months and a few weeks.


So in all cases, none of what I say about how long I was quitting weed or Kratom resulted in my NEVER using them again, but when I said "forever" with weed and Kratom I went longer than when I said I was only taking a break of a certain length or that I wasn't sure if I was quitting forever or not.


To me, these results do seem to indicate I have more success going longer without a substance when I actually say "forever", but none of them meant that I actually did quit forever.

But the other thing I have found, is that in both cases of weed and Kratom, during the times I said I was quitting "forever", what truly got me to go longer when I was craving them was actually telling myself on several occassions internally in my head "Listen, you CAN use it again, JUST NOT TODAY OK?"

In my experience, telling myself I could, even if it was a lie, made me stop freaking out and obsessing over wanting the substance because I thought I could eventually use it again, whereas thinking "forever" would usually make me start freaking out and dwelling on how hard it would be to stop forever.

Basically, delaying gratification is easier than saying you will NEVER allow yourself that gratification again.

And I don't think saying internally you will use it again necessarily means you DEFINITELY will...sometimes it can just help you to go longer.


Like, a different metaphor is that I have had knee and neck injuries from martial arts that I have to do regular physical therapy for, and there's a whole shit load of exercises I am supposed to do, but sometimes it's hard for me to do ALL of them.

For a while I would tell myself "I have to do EVERY SINGLE exercise today" and lots of the time then I wouldn't do any at all cause it just felt like too much you know?"


So then I started telling myself "I DON'T have to do every one, but it would be good if i did, but I am just going to start with 2 of them, and then when I am done with those 2 we'll see" and on MANY occassions I actually did do all or most of my exercises when I said I was probably only doing 2, cause once I was finished with those 2 I'd say to myself "ok, now just try one more, but you don't necessarily have to do more after that", and that would seem not too hard, and I'd keep going and finish them all.

Other times I would only do those 2 exercises, but I know in those situations that had I told myself I HAD to do ALL of them I would not have done any.


So in my experience, putting that kind of pressure on yourself to quit something FOREVER or to do EVERYTHING you are supposed to do on a given day RIGHT THEN result in inaction and failure.

I feel like I have more success with not setting my standards too high.

What do you guys think?
 

Mycophile

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Not much to say here except that your 'therapist' is a fucking joke and a disgrace to their profession.

What was their therapeutic orientation? (Humanistic? Behavioral? Cognitive? Psychodynamic? Integrative?). Just asking out of interest - bottom line is get a decent one that respects human beings instead
I don't know, but he had a whole long list of issues he says he treats on his internet page which made me choose him like: addictions, men's issues, depression, anxiety etc.

In the end, in his very own words, he meant that if more than one of those issues is actually a SERIOUS problem for you, then he is literally only capable of helping you with ONE of them at a time.

What a fucking joke.

And as I said, I talked to my friend who is a very good therapist about what he said and she agreed it was ridiculous.

She said "how many people with depression or anxiety don't also have the other?" "How many people with addictions don't have ANY depression or anxiety?"

And that he was being pretty ridiculous to expect his patients to only have one issue.

When he told me he couldn't handle my problems I said "well I mean, I'm not THAT bad as far as my problems go, considering some people have PTSD or more serious stuff like that."

And he said "Oh, i don't help people with PTSD either."

Basically, he just admitted to fucking being incompetent.

I'm interested to know if he'd admit to such limitations if a colleague or fellow psychologist were listening, because if so he would fucking embarrass himself in front of competent professionals who are willing and capable of helping people with more than one issue.

I bet he wouldn't admit to such incompetence and limitations if any other psychologist or mental health professional were listening.

Lets just say, if he was going for a job interview to become a psychologist, he would probably not get the job if he said "I am only good at helping people who have one major problem at a time."

If there were a job interview for such a thing and I was an employer I think at that point I'd be like "guess who's NOT getting hired if he is unable to help people with more than one problem at at time!" LOL
 

emkee_reinvented

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You stayed true to yourself that is (y) The way it sounds the therapist rather have someone lie to him then having a two way stream conversation.

Forever, is taking things out of the ordinary to the extreme end of the spectrum. I get the therapist's idea about getting away of drug's. Probably basic stuff for them, they don't aid when trying to resolve stuff. Althoug acid and shroom's are used among other's in therapy setting's, but these are the exception's.

But this is like basickly slamming the door shut in your mouth Mycophile.
 
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