Harm Reduction My doc wants to prescribe suboxone for alcohol and Kratom, should I do it?

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

A warning: alcohol withdrawal can be fatal and Suboxone will do nothing for alcohol withdrawal.

 

[Mycophile]

A warning: alcohol withdrawal can be fatal and Suboxone will do nothing for alcohol withdrawal.

You are right, but I'm on Klonopin, so my doctor thinks that will make me ok.

Plus, I've never really BEEN AWARE of experiencing alcohol WD, at least nothing worse than some cravings and mild depression, but again, that's probably because i take Klonopin and it would have been worse had i not, and also i know that my kratom wd in the past would have been worse was i not on klonopin and that's probably why i've never gotten restless leg syndrome while in kratom wd.

And i mean, i'm not gonna deny it, i am an alcoholic, but i'm not on the level of a lot of people like my brother and his friend who would drink like a half a bottle to a bottle or more of whisky a day and wake up and drink in the morning etc.

I drink a bottle of wine about 4-5 days a week, only at night and not during the day, so it's bad, but as far as how bad alcoholics go, even if i wasn't on klonopin i don't think i'd have fatal wds just very uncomfortable ones.

Being on klonopin is really why i think i should be able to deal with both kratom, dexadrine, and mild alcohol wd at once, though it doesn't help with dex wd i don't think.

i could take the suboxone taper she wants me to, but everyone seems to say it's a bad idea, and with 11 days off and nothing to do, it's just gonna be really really uncomfortable, but not in any way dangerous while on klonopin, even all 3 drugs at once.

No one dies from kratom or dexadrine wd, and i don't think anyone on klonopin dies of alcohol wd.

My guess is i'd end up ok if i took the suboxone taper since it would be really quick and she says i'll be fine, but i don't know why i want to find out if i can do it without suboxone.

What bugs me is that kratom and dexadrine wd feel similar to me and i won't necessarily know which i'm feeling or even when i'm over one vs the other, whereas if i was on suboxone i'd know i was only feeling the dex wd.

The part of me that doesn't want to feel like absolute shit wants to take the suboxone, but again, i want to give a shot for a few days without and see if i can handle it.

i think if i don't and give in immediately part of me will wonder later on if i could have handled it myself.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

You are right, but I'm on Klonopin, so my doctor thinks that will make me ok.

Plus, I've never really BEEN AWARE of experiencing alcohol WD, at least nothing worse than some cravings and mild depression, but again, that's probably because i take Klonopin and it would have been worse had i not, and also i know that my kratom wd in the past would have been worse was i not on klonopin and that's probably why i've never gotten restless leg syndrome while in kratom wd.

And i mean, i'm not gonna deny it, i am an alcoholic, but i'm not on the level of a lot of people like my brother and his friend who would drink like a half a bottle to a bottle or more of whisky a day and wake up and drink in the morning etc.

I drink a bottle of wine about 4-5 days a week, only at night and not during the day, so it's bad, but as far as how bad alcoholics go, even if i wasn't on klonopin i don't think i'd have fatal wds just very uncomfortable ones.

Being on klonopin is really why i think i should be able to deal with both kratom, dexadrine, and mild alcohol wd at once, though it doesn't help with dex wd i don't think.

i could take the suboxone taper she wants me to, but everyone seems to say it's a bad idea.

My guess is i'd end up ok since it would be really quick and she says i'll be fine, but i don't know why i want to find out if i can do it without suboxone.

What bugs me is that kratom and dexadrine wd feel similar to me and i won't necessarily know which i'm feeling or even when i'm over one vs the other, whereas if i was on suboxone i'd know i was only feeling the dex wd.

The part of me that doesn't want to feel like absolute shit wants to take the suboxone, but again, i want to give a shot for a few days without and see if i can handle it.

i think if i don't and give in immediately part of me will wonder later on if i could have handled it myself.

Oh, you probably wouldn't get withdrawal from that small an amount either without the Klonopin.
I don't understand why you would need an opioid as strong as Suboxone just for Kratom, though. That's like prescribing Oxycodone for codeine addiction. Just moving you onto something WAY more powerful and addictive.

 

[Mycophile]

Oh, you probably wouldn't get withdrawal from that small an amount either without the Klonopin.
I don't understand why you would need an opioid as strong as Suboxone just for Kratom, though. That's like prescribing Oxycodone for codeine addiction. Just moving you onto something WAY more powerful and addictive.

Exactly, and i know i don't need suboxone and it's both that and pride and to show this doctor that kratom is a mild drug that's milder than suboxone that makes me not want to give in, and to see if i can handle it myself.

Everyone here is telling me that suboxone is far stronger than kratom and that i'll become more dependent on opioids if i take the suboxone and i think they are right.

I mean, maybe i would not become more dependent since she says she'd just do a REALLY quick suboxone detox, but i told her that we all think kratom is a weaker opioid than suboxone and she of course doesn't believe me because no one knows anything about kratom.

She says she has weaned multiple people off kratom using suboxone though which REALLY confuses me.

Let me ask you if you think this theory could be correct; I have heard that if you are dependent on a stronger opiate like heroin or oxy or whatever and switch to kratom that the other addiction piggy picks and you stay dependent on the stronger drug so that when you come off of kratom you get severe withdrawals that are way worse than normal kratom wd because you are really withdrawing from the stronger drug, and usually people who go to see these doctors for subs are on heroin or other stronger opiates, so my guess is these people were heavy opiate users who were using kratom to help them with their opiate but it probably wasn't strong enough so they wanted suboxone cause it's stronger, and maybe that's why she thinks kratom is worse than it is, because what she was seeing was hard opiate wd from someone who was on kratom also.

Do you think that's likely, and can you see any other reason why it could be a good idea to get a suboxone taper for kratom?

I would NOT be seeing her for just kratom if not also for alcohol and dexadrine, and because i want naltrexone to stop me from drinking and using kratom for as long as i decide to take it.

Do you think even if i just did the really quick suboxone taper that she's suggesting that i'd STILL end off worse than before?

She's saying that it will be no problem, but were i not ALSO dependent on dex, which subs doesn't even help with, i wouldn't even consider it i don't think.

So i am pretty sure i still want to see if i can resist taking the suboxone for at least a few days and just see how i feel, but what bothers me is that for me kratom and dexadrine wd feel similar, both causing massive fatigue, but i have never gone through them before, so this time i may not know how much of one or the other i've overcome for a long time, and i like to know what i'm experiencing.

Then if somehow i feel like shit and give in and ask her for subs, which i don't want to do, maybe i'd actually have already been over the kratom wd but not the dex, and have mistaken one for the other, and then take the subs and make myself worse since i was already over it.

That bugs me that that could happen.

Or the other way, cause I THINK she said before she puts me on naltrexone she'll do a piss test to see if the kratom is out of my system so it's safe to take naltrexone, cause you HAVE to be off opiates to take it or it will put you into much much worse withdrawals, but i'd be afraid if she didn't and was just basing it on how i felt that maybe i'd think i was over the kratom wd but i wasn't and was really only over the dex wd and she put me on it and then i had a severe reaction. But I THINK she won't do that just based on how i feel.

I don't know, do you think there's any way i could be more sure of which i was experiencing or experiencing more of, the kratom or dex withdrawal?

And do you think this doctors wanting to put me on subs is just out of pure ignorance of kratom?

She means well and says she just doesn't want me to have to deal with discomfort, but i don't see how putting someone on a stronger drug is a good idea...even just a short taper.

I kind of feel in a position where i want to stand up for kratom and prove to her that it's not as bad as she thinks because of the situation out there with all these doctors and politicians wanting to make it illegal, so it's kind of a point of pride for me, but i can't deny that i know the subs would make me feel better and im not looking forward to feeling like complete shit.

What do you think?

Do you think my plan of at least TRYING to deal with it for a few days and THEN consider if i really want subs is better than just getting on it right now like she wants me to?

I'm talking to her tomorrow and she's really pushing the suboxone hard, again, she means well, but i could just taper kratom for the discomfort, which i'm not planning on doing since i have 11 days off so i want to try to cold turkey and be over it faster, but i will take small amounts if i can't resist and feel too bad.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

Exactly, and i know i don't need suboxone and it's both that and pride and to show this doctor that kratom is a mild drug that's milder than suboxone that makes me not want to give in, and to see if i can handle it myself.

Everyone here is telling me that suboxone is far stronger than kratom and that i'll become more dependent on opioids if i take the suboxone and i think they are right.

I mean, maybe i would not become more dependent since she says she'd just do a REALLY quick suboxone detox, but i told her that we all think kratom is a weaker opioid than suboxone and she of course doesn't believe me because no one knows anything about kratom.

She says she has weaned multiple people off kratom using suboxone though which REALLY confuses me.

Let me ask you if you think this theory could be correct; I have heard that if you are dependent on a stronger opiate like heroin or oxy or whatever and switch to kratom that the other addiction piggy picks and you stay dependent on the stronger drug so that when you come off of kratom you get severe withdrawals that are way worse than normal kratom wd because you are really withdrawing from the stronger drug, and usually people who go to see these doctors for subs are on heroin or other stronger opiates, so my guess is these people were heavy opiate users who were using kratom to help them with their opiate but it probably wasn't strong enough so they wanted suboxone cause it's stronger, and maybe that's why she thinks kratom is worse than it is, because what she was seeing was hard opiate wd from someone who was on kratom also.

Do you think that's likely, and can you see any other reason why it could be a good idea to get a suboxone taper for kratom?

I would NOT be seeing her for just kratom if not also for alcohol and dexadrine, and because i want naltrexone to stop me from drinking and using kratom for as long as i decide to take it.

Do you think even if i just did the really quick suboxone taper that she's suggesting that i'd STILL end off worse than before?

She's saying that it will be no problem, but were i not ALSO dependent on dex, which subs doesn't even help with, i wouldn't even consider it i don't think.

So i am pretty sure i still want to see if i can resist taking the suboxone for at least a few days and just see how i feel, but what bothers me is that for me kratom and dexadrine wd feel similar, both causing massive fatigue, but i have never gone through them before, so this time i may not know how much of one or the other i've overcome for a long time, and i like to know what i'm experiencing.

Then if somehow i feel like shit and give in and ask her for subs, which i don't want to do, maybe i'd actually have already been over the kratom wd but not the dex, and have mistaken one for the other, and then take the subs and make myself worse since i was already over it.

That bugs me that that could happen.

Or the other way, cause I THINK she said before she puts me on naltrexone she'll do a piss test to see if the kratom is out of my system so it's safe to take naltrexone, cause you HAVE to be off opiates to take it or it will put you into much much worse withdrawals, but i'd be afraid if she didn't and was just basing it on how i felt that maybe i'd think i was over the kratom wd but i wasn't and was really only over the dex wd and she put me on it and then i had a severe reaction. But I THINK she won't do that just based on how i feel.

I don't know, do you think there's any way i could be more sure of which i was experiencing or experiencing more of, the kratom or dex withdrawal?

And do you think this doctors wanting to put me on subs is just out of pure ignorance of kratom?

She means well and says she just doesn't want me to have to deal with discomfort, but i don't see how putting someone on a stronger drug is a good idea...even just a short taper.

I kind of feel in a position where i want to stand up for kratom and prove to her that it's not as bad as she thinks because of the situation out there with all these doctors and politicians wanting to make it illegal, so it's kind of a point of pride for me, but i can't deny that i know the subs would make me feel better and im not looking forward to feeling like complete shit.

What do you think?

Do you think my plan of at least TRYING to deal with it for a few days and THEN consider if i really want subs is better than just getting on it right now like she wants me to?

I'm talking to her tomorrow and she's really pushing the suboxone hard, again, she means well, but i could just taper kratom for the discomfort, which i'm not planning on doing since i have 11 days off so i want to try to cold turkey and be over it faster, but i will take small amounts if i can't resist and feel too bad.

The simplest thing to do is just gradually taper off the Kratom. Maybe start by reducing it by 10% and see how you feel.

 

[Mycophile]

The simplest thing to do is just gradually taper off the Kratom. Maybe start by reducing it by 10% and see how you feel.

I know, i'm going for cold turkey cause i have 11 days off, but if i slip up ill take the smallest amount possible, and in that way i'll eventually no longer be dependent on kratom, then start taking naltrexone so the high is blocked and stay on it as long as possible and see how long i can go without any kratom or any drinking.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

So...the deal is she only wants me to do short term sub detox and NOT maintainance and says this will just make me comfortable while in kratom wd and NOT dependent on suboxone.

This makes a lot more sense.

I think this is fine assuming you actually want to get off kratom. It will make withdrawing easier and you won't become dependent on the subs.

What you need to ask yourself is how likely are you to relapse afterwards? If you are serious about getting off opioids this should help you, but if not, the subs won't magically change that. So what I'm basically saying is the rest is down to you after the taper.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Ah okay sorry. I've been writing a paper and these posts are quite long so it's hard for me to read all of them

I too have anxiety and have self-medicated with kratom/adderall. It does help, but at certain points they both create their own forms of anxiety and far worse than whatever I've felt naturally. Have you told your doctor about your anxiety yet? I don't know if you've posted this somewhere above but it might be important especially so she understands you more as a patient. I could tell you have some form of meticulous over-thinking. Try to go with one route of treatment at a time before you decide to switch gears and just stick with the initial one. Truth be told, I can't answer what the best way to get off these substances is and neither can a medical professional after a certain degree. We don't know your body biologically, and kratom isn't often documented in the medical world/known about as much as other substances.

However--I would say that indefinitely out of these substances booze is the absolutely worst one in terms of social and physical ramifications. I would prioritize not drinking again no matter what happens. Short term sub treatment is the best way to handle this then imo. Forget the naltrexone for a second--we don't even know if that will work quite yet. Some find suboxone to be very easy to get off of while others find it immensely difficult. That is why it's best to be on short term as you wanted. Your anxiety might make you do some self-medicating during the process of sub treatment and I just don't think it's going to be healthy to constantly be thinking about the best way to be clean will be at any given time. If your mind is racing at a million miles per minute you're going to botch the process by trying to constantly think of a "better way" to handle your situation while undergoing treatment with this doctor. Just listen to her and ask her if you have any other questions--I think it would help to tell her about your anxiety though so she can understand more about what's happening. I think even gabapentin or low dose could help you with the PAWs (for sure) and some of your anxiousness.

 

[Mycophile]

This makes a lot more sense.

I think this is fine assuming you actually want to get off kratom. It will make withdrawing easier and you won't become dependent on the subs.

What you need to ask yourself is how likely are you to relapse afterwards? If you are serious about getting off opioids this should help you, but if not, the subs won't magically change that. So what I'm basically saying is the rest is down to you after the taper.

Yeah. I've already told her i want to try to break my kratom dependency without it and will only give in if i feel i have to, and i still think most here seem to be saying that even a short sub taper is stronger than kratom and i'd rather not do it.

Do you still think that even a short sub-detox-taper is stronger in terms of the opioid effect than kratom?

So, I'm starting the day after tomorrow with no kratom, dexadrine, alcohol or any drugs other than prescribed ones for as long as possible to get to the point where i am not dependent on kratom so i have little enough in my system to start naltrexone and then as long as i take that i cant drink or use kratom and i can choose to be sober as long as i want.

If somehow i slip up and take a little kratom to feel better, which hopefully i wont, i'll take as low doses as possible, as infrequently and spread out as possible till the depedency is gone, and only give in to the subs if i feel i just can't tolerate it, but really i just don't think that should be necessary.

Then once on the naltrexone i'll just stay sober as long as i can and see how i feel.

I'll start exercising as much as possible and dieting and i know my body will thank me, ESPECIALLY as far as sleep quality and energy since my sleep is so bad, and once i've been clean a while i'll have a better perspective and see what i want to do.

 

[Mycophile]

Ah okay sorry. I've been writing a paper and these posts are quite long so it's hard for me to read all of them

I too have anxiety and have self-medicated with kratom/adderall. It does help, but at certain points they both create their own forms of anxiety and far worse than whatever I've felt naturally. Have you told your doctor about your anxiety yet? I don't know if you've posted this somewhere above but it might be important especially so she understands you more as a patient. I could tell you have some form of meticulous over-thinking. Try to go with one route of treatment at a time before you decide to switch gears and just stick with the initial one. Truth be told, I can't answer what the best way to get off these substances is and neither can a medical professional after a certain degree. We don't know your body biologically, and kratom isn't often documented in the medical world/known about as much as other substances.

However--I would say that indefinitely out of these substances booze is the absolutely worst one in terms of social and physical ramifications. I would prioritize not drinking again no matter what happens. Short term sub treatment is the best way to handle this then imo. Forget the naltrexone for a second--we don't even know if that will work quite yet. Some find suboxone to be very easy to get off of while others find it immensely difficult. That is why it's best to be on short term as you wanted. Your anxiety might make you do some self-medicating during the process of sub treatment and I just don't think it's going to be healthy to constantly be thinking about the best way to be clean will be at any given time. If your mind is racing at a million miles per minute you're going to botch the process by trying to constantly think of a "better way" to handle your situation while undergoing treatment with this doctor. Just listen to her and ask her if you have any other questions--I think it would help to tell her about your anxiety though so she can understand more about what's happening. I think even gabapentin or low dose could help you with the PAWs (for sure) and some of your anxiousness.

Well, as i've mentioned i have pretty much decided, at least what i am going to attempt to do to start with, which is NOT take subs unless i feel so miserable i have no choice, which i see as unlikely, stop kratom, dex and alcohol, and as soon as the kratom is out of my system and it's safe to take naltrexone i will and then i can't drink or take kratom for as long as i take it because it blocks them.

Let me ask you; why did you say; ''forget the naltrexone--we don't even know if that will work quite yet''?

That is and has always been ONE HUNDRED PERCENT OF THE REASON WHY I EVER WENT TO SEE A DOCTOR AT ALL, because i know that if i take that i can't drink or use kratom while on it, and it is the core of why i believe i can be sober longer than ever before.

Why would you think it wouldn't work?

We KNOW FOR A FACT that naltrexone DOES work to completely stop people from getting high on opiates or getting drunk, so there's no question there, and if there was i would not have seen a doctor.

Of course, if you go back and look at my posts you'll see endless comments about why i want ULTRA LOW DOSE naltrexone and NOT high dose, but my doctor won't prescribe it.

I can however, possibly figure out how to make my own from her full dose pills, and will probably try eventually for reasons i dont' want to explain again, or i may be able to find a way to get it prescribed from someone else or buy it.

I think its' SUPER fucked up she'll prescribe high dose naltrexone like 100 times STRONGER than the dose i want and suboxone but not that, but i'm not even going to get into that again.

I am going to resist suboxone unless i feel i have no choice, and if i gave in it would be a SUPER quick on and off detox, but i don't want to do it and don't plan to.

And yes, my doctor knows about my anxiety and depression.

I take klonopin which will help with anxiety and also kratom and alcohol wd so i don't need gabapentin, though i have become interested in it at times.

I wish a medication worked better for my issues than klonopin and lexapro though.

Kratom works better than either, and i believe the combo of that with ultra low dose naltrexone could turn it into a super medication reducing kratom's side effects, but again, this is something i'm too tired to repeat anymore hahaha.

That's my temporary plan though, and i'm starting the day after tomorrow.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Yeah. I've already told her i want to try to break my kratom dependency without it and will only give in if i feel i have to, and i still think most here seem to be saying that even a short sub taper is stronger than kratom and i'd rather not do it.

Do you still think that even a short sub-detox-taper is stronger in terms of the opioid effect than kratom?

I think this is smart on your part.

Bupe is stronger than kratom full stop. But if it's used to taper rapidly over a week you will not become dependent on it and it can help you get off other opioids quickly.

That said, it is still overkill for kratom as others have said, and tapering kratom itself is the simplest solution. I think keeping bupe only as a last resort for tapering is a good idea.

 

[Mycophile]

I think this is smart on your part.

Bupe is stronger than kratom full stop. But if it's used to taper rapidly over a week you will not become dependent on it and it can help you get off other opioids quickly.

That said, it is still overkill for kratom as others have said, and tapering kratom itself is the simplest solution. I think keeping bupe only as a last resort for tapering is a good idea.

It actually really bothers me that this doctor thinks that kratom is stronger than bupe and that's part of my pride trying to convince her it's not because of all the hate Kratom's been getting with everyone trying to make it illegal.

She says she's tapered many people off Kratom using bupe and that her colleagues do the same!!

How do you think this could be possible that she's done it without making the situation worse or becoming aware that Kratom is a weaker opioid than bupe?!!

I have a couple theories which are the following;

1--Maybe those people were taking kratom EXTRACTS and not bupe, but let me ask you, do you think even the absolute WORST habit with the absolute STRONGEST Kratom extracts out there is stronger than bupe?

2--And/or---I've heard that when someone is dependent on another opioid and switch to another, even if it's weaker, that their receptors somehow take their habit with them, so that many times heroin or oxy or whatever kind of hard opioid users will use kratom to try to relieve withdrawal and then when they try to quit kratom they actually go into not just kratom withdrawal but whatever opioid they were on before

Do you know if this is true?

If so, my guess is these people that her and her colleagues have ''tapered off kratom'' were ACTUALLY being tapered off of not just kratom but most importantly another much harder opiate, and possibly also kratom EXACTS that are stronger than the plain leaf i take, and the withdrawals she was seeing them have were from their hard opioids so she thinks that that is how bad kratom WD is but it isn't.

Cause MOST people who go to these doctors for suboxone or whatever else DO NOT go for just kratom WD, and that's not why i'm there. I'm there for BOTH alcohol and kratom, because I wanted naltrexone from the start and i know that it works for both so that was enough of a reason. I DEFINITELY would NOT be there if i only had a kratom addiction...I MIGHT be there is i had only an alcohol problem....im not sure, it might have to be worse than mine.....it's definitely the combo that makes me want the naltrexone and i wouldn't ask for it for kratom alone as i have stopped kratom for a year on my own before.

It just really surprises me that she and other doctors she knows would have weened MULTIPLE kratom-heads off of kratom using suboxone like she says because it's just so much damn stronger.

What do you think of my theory?

 

[Wilson Wilson]

I cannot imagine any kratom extract that is more potent than bupe. Maybe some of those synthetic versions of the active ingredients in kratom (often sold as "enhanced kratom") could be oxy level, but even oxy itself is technically less potent per mg than bupe. I think she hasn't got her facts straight. Which is to be expected really when kratom is not a pharma drug nor a common illicit drug, it's quite obscure and most doctors really know very little if anything about it.

Your theory about most kratom addicts using it to come off stronger opiates is a good one. Those people may very well benefit from bupe if the kratom is not quite tickling their opiate cravings.

As I said using bupe strictly for a taper is not necessarily a bad thing. But it should be kept as a last resort when tapering kratom itself is clearly the simplest solution.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

I had a friend who was forced to receive the naltrexone (shot form). After almost a year of being on it, his family and doctor decided he was in the clear because he had adjusted to being totally sober and it really did seem like he was over the opiate lifestyle. Furthermore, he went to AA meetings on a very frequent basis.

As soon as he was taken off it he relapsed. I think it's more about defeating internal cravings than it is to take external options unless you can be on it for extremely long term. How long someone is willing to keep you on it is not something to my knowledge. I just think people are looking for a quick-fix when it comes to opiate addiction especially. There really isn't any. It's just a long taxing process and no matter what method you use to free yourself in the end and people do return after a decade of being sober at times. Overcoming opiate addiction is more about being able to defeat yourself from my experience. It is soul-crushing, humiliating, and hopeless at times but the most important thing is to pick yourself back up and keep trying. You only lose the game totally if you relapse and then give in to returning to old habits. So if you do end up being treated with naltrexone, NEVER think that it's impossible that you one day return if you're no longer on it. Sobriety can be really quite unpredictable and you really have no idea where it will take you or whether you might fail one day.

PS just a note--even if you do use the subs infrequently they'll still have a blocking property and I'm not sure if you'll be able to feel kratom at all but this depends on a number of factors-just FYI in case this surprises you if you don't feel kratom at all.

 

[negrogesic]

Damn, I drink the equivalent of a bottle of wine a night, every night, and don't consider myself an alcoholic (though i do think i drink to much).

Also, that doctor is a fool. In no circumstance should you start on buprenorphine for a kratom addiction, particularly a low level one like the one you are describing.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

^I agree so much. However, I'm impressed she even knows what kratom is. My mother worked at a detox unit and sometimes on occasion people come in to withdraw from high dose kratom believe it or not. The nurses/doctors tending to patients situations often have to ask other colleagues what that means. I feel like this doctor you have OP has heard that it's an opiate or some kind of opiate but has no idea of the strengths of its effects.

I didn't mean to misconstrue what I'm trying to say. Naltrexone is a good option for you especially because it's also beneficial to alcoholics. But right now your doctor is insisting that you be treated in a conflicting way as to how you feel you should be treated. I suggest finding a different doctor if possible who shares a similar viewpoint as you on how to handle the situation--or just follow this one's orders if not. It doesn't sound like she's willing to compromise too much at this point in time.

Anyway... your situation stresses you out a bit and I understand that, but I cannot emphasize enough how fortunate you are to be hooked on kratom as opposed to stronger opiates. The withdrawal is shorter and less mentally taxing (the brain tends to rely on real opiates more for mood control and endorphins). Kratom withdrawal for me is a grumpy mood/sleeping 15 hours a day (no joke)/what I would describe as a glow of anxiety. The anxiety from opiates feels almost as if it's physical, and there's a feeling of physical discomfort throughout your body and you just know something is not quite right. I just think that in the long run the hardest part is that once you get off kratom you can return in the future. Even with naltrexone you'd need to be on it for a very long time or risk relapsing, because for sure you're going to crave it again. Any treatment regardless will take some effort on your part and won't remove any mental consequences of adjusting to life without it. You're going to miss the buzz trust me--but the cravings aren't like oxy/heroin where you'd do anything to get your hands on it when the switch turns off in my opinion. I totally am consumed by oxy cravings the longer I go without it. I've relapsed for 1-2 days many times to just make the voice shut up. Still, you're going to have to do some internal searching as anyone has to when they're looking to enter sobriety. It's hard no matter what DOC. I've said about all I have to on this subject so I'm gonna head out. GL op Merry christmas all.

 

[Xorkoth]

I was becoming dependent on kratom a few months ago. I obtained some bupe, thinking I'd take it every 2 days for maybe 3 times, and skip the kratom withdrawal. it works, I'd take 2mg of bupe and it would get me WAY higher than kratom ever has, really awesome high, similarly stimulating and motivating too. The problem was I liked it and kept taking it, only every 3 days, but after a month or so, I found I was dependent on bupe which is a far worse withdrawal than kratom, it lasts 3-4 times as long as is worse in absically every way. I recently finally got through that, it was pretty bad for a while, and I wasn't even taking it daily.

So if you think you have the willpower to actually stick to the plan and not keep using bupe, it's a good option. You will NOT need to take it daily, you can take it every other day, bupe lasts for a long time. I feel like doctors prescribe WAY too high a dose for bupe and they also prescribe it daily. If you're just trying to switch to long-term maintenance, then daily makes sense, but for use in tapering/bypass other opiate withdrawal, it's a bad idea and you should take the absolute minimum amount you can get away with, for as short a time as possible. Honestly as little as 500ug of bupe would take away my withdrawals complete, 2mg got me high as hell and was very recreational.

 

[RecklessWOT]

I just have to work on typing less because that's why people don't want to read my shit, but i have serious problems with being long winded, and when i'm on dex or any drugs it gets worse.

Otherwise, i'm asking the kind of reasonable questions this forum is made for; entirely based in harm reduction, drugs related to aiding with addictions while in treatment with both a doctor and social worker etc...it's like the number one kind of thread you'd want to show someone to prove that this forum isn't just for people talking about how to get high lol.

I have always been long winded myself, don't worry I read the whole post.


In response to your previous questions- suboxone is much worse for you and would be harder to get off of. Kratom is not even technically an opioid, it just has some similarities. IIRC it's more closely related to coffee than any real opiate. Yes I think your doctor is misguided and way overdoing it with the meds. If you feel that way too then trust yourself, it's about YOUR comfort level and what YOU want to do, this isn't court ordered is it? Then tell the doc to pound sand. If they force the high dose stuff on you, take it upon yourself to just take less than what they're prescribing, break the pills in half or whatever. Make it work.

If you want to go cold turkey though and you really doubt your abilities to even try to cut back, then you may need subs. I think slowly tapering off is your easiest bet, you literally won't notice it if go slow enough. You said you're on like 23 grams a day? Every time you dose, just take like 1/2 gram less than you normally would, then a gram, etc. Same with the wine, start buying a brand of wine that has a slightly lower AVB than the one you normally buy. Then once you get that down pat, maybe buy smaller bottles, or pour the first glass out before you dive in so that there is physically less to drink. You said you drink one bottle 4-5 nights a week which means that you go 2-3 days a week without any, so it sounds like you DO have some self control whether you want to believe it or not. Seriously, one bottle of wine is like a 6 pack of light beer. It's good that you want to cut back, but at that level it's not like you're getting seizures and DTs if you skip a night. Give yourself some credit, whether you want to believe it or not you are already controlling yourself, it is possible (maybe with some help from an outside source but definitely not chemical intervention like subs) to tone it back more even if it is a slow process.. Have some self respect.

Sorry if I sound harsh to you, but I take this personally because I have spent YEARS cutting down on my drinking, was poisoning myself with over a liter of vodka/whiskey every single day of the week, and that was largely the byproduct of quitting real opiates. By the time I got myself down to where you are I already felt pretty fucking accomplished. At this point I consider myself sober and am happy staying right where I am for the rest of my life- I drink about 3 nights a week (a handful of beers/shots on weekends and usually 2-3 beers one night during the week) and once in a blue moon I take a few grams of Kratom when I really get the itch. It is not affecting my personal life or my health, and I am excelling in my career. I need to spend the rest of my life paying attention and making sure that I don't slip back into my old ways, but I did it for myself and my family. If you want to quit, if you really actually want it that bad then don't sell yourself short. Yeah it's hard work, yeah it's uncomfortable at times, but don't give me that "oh it's impossible to control myself I am helpless" victim BS, just look yourself in the eye in the mirror and say "hey I'm not worthless" then choose to not pick up the bottle. Your arm isn't gonna fall off if you don't put the wine in your shopping cart. You'll have cravings sure, and that's all they are. The day you sleep walk your ass to the liquor store okay then I'll agree and say you're not in control. Until then, do yourself a favor and try your best. A few stumbles are okay, but don't give up on yourself so easily, it's shameful.

 

[Mycophile]

Damn, I drink the equivalent of a bottle of wine a night, every night, and don't consider myself an alcoholic (though i do think i drink to much).

Also, that doctor is a fool. In no circumstance should you start on buprenorphine for a kratom addiction, particularly a low level one like the one you are describing.

To be fair to her, i don't think that overall she's a fool, i just think like most doctors she knows almost nothing at all about kratom. She didn't even know that it is a partial agonist or even that it is a legal drug in my state lol.

She comes highly recommended by a really cool social worker i'm seeing who himself is a former drug addict and alcoholic, and i think she knows her stuff regarding lots of stuff, so lets not pretend it isn't possible for a doctor to not realize that kratom is FAR FAR weaker than bupe and still not be a good doctor otherwise.

I think she is, but no, i'm not taking bupe.

It's been 6 days and pretty much all the kratom wd symptoms are gone and i'm going to go on naltrexone within the next few days and see how i feel on it just so i have something i can take to the point where if i don't want to be able to drink or take kratom i really pretty much can't.

Sure, kratom is a weak drug, and yeah, by some people's standards 4-5 bottles of wine a week isn't being a hardcore alcoholic, but that, plus dexadrine too, and overall having a lifestyle that's come to revolve around nothing but these drugs and drinking for the most part other than just working however much i need to bare minimum to pay my bills and being overweight and needing to get back into shape means i need a long period of sobriety right now for sure.

I don't want to never use kratom or drink again, but if i go back to like i am now i will simply never be productive, so if i ever use it can't be a complete non-stop binge or lifestyle where i just drink and use kratom and dexadrine daily or even every other day.

There's doing things that are somewhat harmful but not DEADLY like i am, but at the same time, to the point where they prevent you from moving any further in life, and that's where i'm at, so i have to do it.

Hopefully the naltrexone agrees with me.

It'll be an interesting experiment, and it'll keep me sober most likely long enough to get back in shape and gain some perspective on my situation and figure out what i want to do and if i want to drink or use kratom i can stop temporarily and go back to using it, but i know i need to be sober for a while and i feel this is the best way to ensure that i can do it since i'd be lying if i said i think at this point i can just moderate without something to stop me, but if i know that as long as i keep swallowing that pill that alcohol and kratom literally WILL NOT WORK, then if i can just keep taking it, which i know i can, or else i can get the shot that lasts a month, then i'm good for as long as i use it i think.

I figure it's a good tool to have in the repetoire of a person like me who likes substances, but also has trouble moderating and likes to be able to ensure he has long periods of sobriety, at the least from time to time, or who knows, maybe i pull it off for a few years. We'll just have to see.

 

[Mycophile]

I had a friend who was forced to receive the naltrexone (shot form). After almost a year of being on it, his family and doctor decided he was in the clear because he had adjusted to being totally sober and it really did seem like he was over the opiate lifestyle. Furthermore, he went to AA meetings on a very frequent basis.

As soon as he was taken off it he relapsed. I think it's more about defeating internal cravings than it is to take external options unless you can be on it for extremely long term. How long someone is willing to keep you on it is not something to my knowledge. I just think people are looking for a quick-fix when it comes to opiate addiction especially. There really isn't any. It's just a long taxing process and no matter what method you use to free yourself in the end and people do return after a decade of being sober at times. Overcoming opiate addiction is more about being able to defeat yourself from my experience. It is soul-crushing, humiliating, and hopeless at times but the most important thing is to pick yourself back up and keep trying. You only lose the game totally if you relapse and then give in to returning to old habits. So if you do end up being treated with naltrexone, NEVER think that it's impossible that you one day return if you're no longer on it. Sobriety can be really quite unpredictable and you really have no idea where it will take you or whether you might fail one day.

PS just a note--even if you do use the subs infrequently they'll still have a blocking property and I'm not sure if you'll be able to feel kratom at all but this depends on a number of factors-just FYI in case this surprises you if you don't feel kratom at all.

Well if you read my last few posts you'll see that i've decided on naltrexone and not subs and that i'm already over my kratom wd so i don't want to repeat most of it, and this doctor is imo not an idiot by any means, she is just unaware, like most doctors lets be honest, how weak kratom is.

But i think that as long as i take naltrexone, and i can probably take it as long as i want, i can stay clean, and if i want to stop and drink or use kratom i will stop long enough to do so and go back on it once it's safe, and i know this is something many people do; doing that ''drug math'' to figure out how long they have to stop taking the naltrexone to drink or use opioids and full their full effect, then how long they have to be off those drugs to safely go back to the nalterxone etc. I can't deny i bet i'll do it at some point and i hope i don't mess up and get sick...

But there's also something called Ultra Low Dose Naltrexone which is microdsoing naltrexone which supposedly has a very different effect from high dose, and so far this doctor is not willing to try it which pisses me off, but she says she'll consider it, and even if she doesn't i'm going to either find a way to buy it online or i can figure out how to make it myself from her full dose pills, though i don't know if id get the dose right.

SUPPOSEDLY, despite it being like 1/100th the dose of high dose naltrexone IT WORKS MUCH BETTER for cravings, but you can ALSO safely take an opioid while on it and get high, yet not crave the high....sounds too good to be true, but studies seem to support it but it's very fringe.

Then there's The Sinclair Method for alcohol, and i can't see why it wouldn't work for kratom as well WHERE YOU INTENTIONALLY AND ONLY TAKE NALTREXONE BEFORE DRINKING.

That might sound like playing with fire, but it has a 78 percent success ratio in Finland and is approved by doctors.

The idea is that we learn to crave drugs or alcohol by associating the use of the drug with the euphoria, but that if we REPEATEDLY take something that blocks the high WHILE taking the drug or drinking...SO LONG AS WE CAN DO IT SAFELY IS THE BIG QUESTION....that over time the brain stops associating the drug with pleasure because every time the person takes the drug or drink no pleasure is produced.

The method is gaining notoriety, and i may be willing to try it but i'd be a bit scared that i could fuck myself up from drinking or to a lesser extent taking kratom on it, and for some people drinking on naltrexone has gotten them sick, but for others the method has worked very well.

In theory, i definitely think it could work and that one reason that naltrexone may often not reduce cravings for long enough is that it isn't used in conjunction with the substance the person craves so the person's brain never learns to disconnect the action of taking the drug with the euphoria.

There's also several other drugs out there for different kinds of drug cravings my doctor said she'll try if the naltrexone doesn't work.

So for me, i think it holds promise as something to keep me sober for as long as i am willing to continue taking it.

Obviously you can fuck up any time you stop, and i don't plan MOST LIKELY on being sober forever, but i'll never say never.

I'd rather not want to use anything, but be able to if i can, which is why ultra low dose naltrexone is probably better, but anyway, i am going to do some experiments with both high and ultra low dose and see what happens.