Harm Reduction My doc wants to prescribe suboxone for alcohol and Kratom, should I do it?

[Wilson Wilson]

Problem is when you do get sober off opiates there is a flat and grey period of life where you can't necessarily enjoy or be excited by things. Subs help with that feeling, but whenever I am clean trust me I don't feel good. I feel accomplished, but the cravings sometimes are ridiculous and ahedonia--inability to enjoy things is what makes me want to relapse. People only talk about physical withdrawals or worry about those, but sometimes the PAWs are worse by some means. God damn dude. Kratom might be less severe in this regard.

Very true, the PAWS can easily be worse in the long-term than the initial week long withdrawal. When I got off oxy it was like two months of not being able to feel anything. Even when I was with my girlfriend I felt nothing, no happiness no love no horniness nothing. I had to make her understand it's the withdrawals making me like that.

Thankfully for me the PAWS did only last a couple months and I'm all back to normal now and honestly I feel much happier than I was during my oxy habit so it was worth it in the end. But for some people PAWS can last longer and that's a struggle.

You're certainly a lot more likely to get PAWS coming off bupe than kratom, and also PAWS are more likely to occur with longer habits and also with relapses. Each time you quit and start again, quitting gets more and more difficult. It used to be when I quit oxy my normal self rushed back and I actually felt good despite the physical withdrawals. But last time the PAWS hit me and it was just pure depressing.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

i think it depends if you are miserable on the kratom or not.

i was addicted to full-agonist opiates for over 10 years. PST, heroin, oxy, dilaudid, opana, all of em. i tried suboxone for 3 months then quit and went back to opiates because i couldn't stand never feeling a buzz. for that reason i upped the drinking while on subs and went from 6 beers a day to 20+, and kept up the drinking at that level when i started using opiates again.

only got clean cause i went to jail and ended up on probation, primarily because of alcohol.

when i tried kratom it was about a year ago and after 6 months totally sober. it worked well for about 2 months at giving me the opiate buzz i still craved.

now i'm up to 70+ grams a day, and i too am considering going on subs. the kratom is too much money, and for me the withdrawal is just as bad - if not worse! - as PST or dope or any other opiate. kratom has stopped having any benefit. it is pretty miserable at this level. more miserable then when i was only using subs. i used to say 'im not high, just not sick' on opiates, but at least you got that little bit of satisfaction.. not at all with kratom.

but this is just me, and i'm simply offering a viewpoint i havent read yet in this thread.

should you switch? i tend to think not, but if the kratom is actually making you miserable, maybe. if it is not making you miserable, and you just "feel like a break" i tend to agree that bupe isn't going to help things in the long run. if i go back on subs, probation will send me back to drug counseling, and i dont need/care for the weekly speech, and i think itll kill the shot at being let off early...

wish i just stayed sober.... but fuck, thats pretty miserable too!

Hey buddy. I remember you said you live next to a seed tea resource lol! Why don't you just use seed tea again?

I think there are definitely folks out there who beneftit from a life-long opiate addiction and can handle it. I'm just wondering why you switched from kratom to seed tea when someone with your tolerance would never have to ideally worry about an overdose.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Ok, but please respond to this;

I have heard some people say that they got HORRENDOUS Suboxone withdrawal and used KRATOM TO GET OFF OF SUBOXONE.

And i think that either way, i'm not sure that either kratom or suboxone is THAT much stronger than the other and i'd be switching from one opioid, partial agonist or not, to another, and that the only reason it helps with kratom wd, IF IT DOES, is because it's an opioid.

Yes, the other reason is the naloxone, but that effect in a blocker i can get from naltrexone while still breaking any opioid dependency, and yes, it would not help with cravings, but that's just the nature of the beast that only an opioid, partial or not, will help with opioid cravings, though there seems to be SOME evidence that naltrexone could help cravings, my doctor thinks it may not fully help with them in the same way as suboxone,but it doesn't seem worth.

Let me ask your honest opinion, and i'll number my questions throughout this thread;

1--do you really think that kratom is actually MORE DANGEROUS with more negative side effects than kratom, and do you REALLY think that switching from kratom to suboxone is not, AT BEST, just a SMALL step down which simply prolongs addiction to opioid in general based on brain receptors in much the same way that just tapering kratom would?

And PLEASE don't feel you have to agree with the doctor cause she's a doctor and you are mod and feel you have to, cause i am thinking that may be why you are doing it, and it's why it makes me more hesitant to take moderators' opinions as seriously as knowledgable posters, because they don't represent bluelight like you do and don't have to feel responsible if they say they don't trust a doctor's advice.

She's willing to prescribe REGULAR dose naltrexone, which is probably the option i'll take over suboxone as it sounds both safer and means i'm ACTUALLY getting off opioids and not just switching to another, which MIGHT not be any safer or less addictive, or at best just MODERATELY SO, but she is unwilling to try ultra low dose naltrexone, or at least she SAYS she'll think about it but i don't know.

It pisses me off cause i've read that ULDN is in phase 3 clinical trials and shows promise as being BETTER FOR DRUG CRAVINGS THAN HIGH DOSE NALTREXONE, and has off label use as an antidepressant, and yet, many people have found that they can take their opioid, whether kratom or heroin or whatever, and still get high, BUT also have their cravings reduced for their opioid, tolerance and side effects and addictive potential and wd effects of their opioid being reduced all at the same time.

That sounds win/win to me, as i could take ULDN and hopefully NOT give in to taking kratom, but if i do and it still works and potentiates it as some suggest, it would STILL help me not want to use kratom as much while reducing tolerance and side effects to kratom.

BUT...this hasn't been 100 percent proven, it's just been in phase 3 trials but there are TONS of personal anecdotes online to suggest ULDN MIGHT do all these things and is virtually a different drug from full dose naltrexone which sounds in inferior in every way EXCEPT that if you really want a 100 percent full blocker full dose is better so it has it's place which is why if she won't offer ULDN and my choice is full dose nal. or subs i think i'll deal with the kratom cravings and go with the safer option that leaves me NOT addicted to ANY kind of opioid, partial or not, and blocks me from drinking or even taking kratom, which yes, I do TEMPORARILY WANT TO BE BLOCKED FROM DRINKING OR TAKING KRATOM, BUT NOT FOREVER.

I just want to chemically induce TEMPORARY abstinence, starting with AT LEAST a month, and then trying for probably 3 and continuing from there, but i almost definitely WILL drink and use kratom again, but i want a long period of sobriety first and to introduce myself to the world of drug blockers and learn to use them to, again, be able to chemically induce either abstinence or moderation, but then not take them if i don't want to and then i can use kratom or booze, but i still want to be 100 percent clean for at least a month at first and then hopefully 3 months or more.

And let me ask you the following questions;

2--do you think that taking kratom and/or drinking while on suboxone is dangerous?

I need to know, because if the subs DON'T help so much with cravings that i mess up and do either i don't want to be in danger, and according to my doctor drinking and kratom aren't dangerous on naltrexone but would just block it, while i read that drinking on suboxone could be VERY dangerous, even lethal, and they aren't sure about kratom with subs, but that that also could be dangerous, and might potentiate eachother the suboxone might NOT block the kratom as kratom is atypical, so i think i should assume that that mix is also dangerous.

3--Do you really believe that being addicted to a medicinal dose of suboxone, and the WD effects of getting off of it, would be significantly lighter and easier to come off of than LOW dose kratom IF i could taper down?

Let me also stress; I TAKE KLONOPIN, and my doctor already made me more aware than i was of how much the klonopin has helped in the past with kratom wd and probably MILD alcohol withdrawal also, so i have that to combat many of the negative effects.

4--Do you know for sure that suboxone would actually block me from getting high on kratom?

Because some accounts of people on the internet say they HAVE combined suboxone with kratom and not only did the suboxone NOT block the kratom but THEY POTENTIATED EACHOTHER.

5--Could I not potentially end up continuing to take Kratom and be addicted to BOTH suboxone AND Kratom and be in a worse spot, or even switch to subs but have the WD when tapering off the subs not be at least close to as bad, if not equal or even worse than coming off of kratom?

I mean, I have gone through kratom WD about 30 times but the difference is I always used to use it like 3-4 days a week and the worst i ever had been was taking kratom for about 10 days in a row, and now i have taken it 2-3 times a day every day in a row for almost 3 months so yes, i know it will be much worse and probably last longer than it has before BUT I have 12 days off of work and nothing at all to do with klonopin to help me, and if somehow i mess up and take a little i can ease it up, but i'd rather cold turkey so it's over in 12 days. The longest kratom wd has ever lasted was 5 days total--3 days of acute wd and 2 days of PAWS....so I am assuming this time to be smart that maybe the acute WD could last twice as long and be 6 days with PAWS being twice as long at 4....a total of 10 days MAX, most likely less than that, and probably the kratom WD will be 2 if not 3 times worse than before, but i mean, it would probably just kind of be like having the flu for a week and then over right?

6--If i use suboxone, am i not, in a way, just prolonging my opioid addiction, and AT BEST moving to something that might be ONLY SLIGHTLY less addictive? ASIDE from helping with cravings and any partial blocking effects, is it not quite likely that coming off of suboxone could not be the same level of discomfort as coming off of a much lower level kratom addiction than the one i have, and is this not what most opioid users call ''piggy backing'', where i use suboxone to counter kratom wd and then the suboxone takes on the remainder of the kratom addiction and the previous kratom addiction adds to the sub addiction when it comes to getting off of that?

Many people addicted to worse opiates like heroin or oxy say that when they switch to kratom to get off of it then the kratom wd is horrendous because it's like they are coming off of BOTH the kratom and the previous opioid, but let me stress I HAVE NO PREVIOUS OPIOID ADDICTION, ONLY KRATOM, so that seems to be just switching and maybe making things worse.

7--And suboxone can possibly cause respiratory depression if you take too much, so how is it safer than kratom?!!

8--In reality, what is the difference between my switching to suboxone rather than tapering kratom as far as help with the WD symptoms?

Yes, i know it MIGHT be a partial blocker, but again, accounts say getting high on kratom and even drunk on suboxone MIGHT be possible but just dangerous, and sure, it would help with cravings, but it just seems a bad idea AND i would be tempted to try to take more subs to get high which i don't want to do and I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT HIGH DOSE SUBS BEING ABUSED IS WORSE THAN TAKING AS MUCH KRATOM AS YOU WANT. Subxone can cause respiratory depression if abused but kratom can't.

I can't wrap my head around the fact that she admitted she was afraid to give me ultra low dose naltrexone because she knows i might eventually take it with kratom because i have heard that it can reduce side effects and wd from kratom while simultaneously reducing cravings for it BUT SHE IS WILLING TO PRESCRIBE A DRUG WHICH CAN BE ABUSED ON ITS OWN, UNLIKE ULDN, AND WHICH ALSO CAN POSSIBLY BE COMBINED WITH KRATOM AND MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT ALSO POTENTIATE IT BUT ALSO BE VERY DANGEROUS.

She is just afraid to go outside of protocal and prescribe microdoses OF THE SAME DRUG, naltrexone, that she is willing to prescribe in higher doses, but will recommend a drug that is actually some people's drug of choice in suboxone.


So finally...

9--Considering all this, DO YOU THINK I AM BETTER OFF GOING WITH REGULAR/HIGH DOSE NALTREXONE TO ACHIEVE TEMPORARY SOBRIETY, EVEN IF MAYBE IT DOESN'T END UP WORKING AS WELL FOR CRAVINGS AS SUBOXONE, RATHER THAN TAKING SUBOXONE?

I know i can get through kratom WD in 12 days with klonopin and lots of sleep, and then i will not be addicted to ANY opioid, partial or otherwise, then take naltrexone to block me from drinking or taking kratom for as long as i want, and then if i want to use kratom or drink again i can go a few days without the nalterexone, use kratom or drink, then wait a few more days to be 100 percent sure i am not dependent on kratom, and then go right back to naltrexone that way and have had a period of fun and go back to chemically induced absitence.

It unforunately might not help as well with the cravings for everything as suboxone, but that's only cause suboxone is itself a partial opioid, and i would actually be sober and not addicted to any kind of opioid.

The hypocrisy in medicine ASTOUNDS ME, that they are all for a chemical like suboxone, which while it CAN be safe, WHEN ABUSED is FAR more dangerous than Kratom, and they are also willing to prescribe HIGH dose naltrexone, but they are terrified of how bad kratom must be and will not prescribe microdoses that are hundreds to THOUSANDS of times weaker of the same drug they are pushing, naltrexone, cause those doses aren't yet fully approved.

I bet you ANY DAY OF THE WEAK that both kratom and ultra low dose naltrexone are safer across the board than kratom and full-high dose naltrexone.

1. I wouldn't lie. You get a cheaper product with a constant dose.

2. Safe to not use any drugs (save caffeine/nicotine). Perhaps some teas you cna use.

3. Taper very slowly. But I don't think you have to, necessarily. You could be on suboxone your whole life, likely.

4. It should.

5. No, you just take the sub. It will make you even out more so, but it works this way just on its own.

6. You would be ending the addiction, and starting ORT. Just use the sub. You would be able to actually work through your problems through therapy.

7. Sub stops you from being too high, and from being too low. Your respiratory system won't falter.

8. If you taper form sub, you cna do it as slow or fast as you want. Bottom line is it's safe, you know what you're getting, and it will enable you to work through problems that you covered up with drug abuse/addiction. Price is another factor.

9. That's a specific question that I can't answer.

Get a foot in the door. Start working the system if you can. It helps people.

 

[Xorkoth]

It boils down to one thing, really. Are you trying to get clean from opiates? Or are you trying to not be compelled to do kratom and alcohol? Because suboxone withdrawal is FAR worse than kratom withdrawal. If you're trying to get off, being prescribed sub for kratom addiction is like being prescribed heroin for hydrocodone addiction. For me, sub is WAY better of an opiate than kratom, once you're past the initial stages where you get great effects from kratom (I find kratom becomes hard to get a good high from after abusing it for a while). It's going to be SO much easier to get off kratom.

That said, if you're just trying to get off the cycle of abusing short-acting drugs, and don't care about being on a different opiate indefinitely, sub could provide you a lot of stability in preventing you from wanting to do opiates (and possibly drink too). However, I really can't help but feel like it's a terrible idea. And if you want to get off completely, then it's definitely a terrible idea.

 

[Mycophile]

It boils down to one thing, really. Are you trying to get clean from opiates? Or are you trying to not be compelled to do kratom and alcohol? Because suboxone withdrawal is FAR worse than kratom withdrawal. If you're trying to get off, being prescribed sub for kratom addiction is like being prescribed heroin for hydrocodone addiction. For me, sub is WAY better of an opiate than kratom, once you're past the initial stages where you get great effects from kratom (I find kratom becomes hard to get a good high from after abusing it for a while). It's going to be SO much easier to get off kratom.

That said, if you're just trying to get off the cycle of abusing short-acting drugs, and don't care about being on a different opiate indefinitely, sub could provide you a lot of stability in preventing you from wanting to do opiates (and possibly drink too). However, I really can't help but feel like it's a terrible idea. And if you want to get off completely, then it's definitely a terrible idea.

This is how I feel now. I told my doctor that i believe suboxone to be a stronger drug than kratom and not a step in the right direction, but she does not believe me and says she has already treated many kratom addicts with suboxone, which i think sounds insane. She says she'd give me a subolocade with IM naltrexone so it would not be possible for me to abuse the suboxone, but i still think it's nuts.

What i want is only to initially first get over my physical dependence to kratom, and also dexadrine, and start with at least a full month of no kratom, alcohol, dexadrine or other drugs. Then i'd probably try for a 2nd month, hopefully a 3rd, and try to go as long as i can without everything, but NOT with the intention of never using kratom, alcohol or anything i want EVER AGAIN in my life. i cannot imagine that, but at the same time, moderation is not possible for me, unless chemically induced, which is why i'm interested in naltrexone, but much more so ultra low dose than full dose, which she won't give me out of fear i'll mix it with kratom, as if that is somehow more dangerous than my being on suboxone. i know she's a doctor and i'm not, but i'm not unintelligent and i don't see this as the way to go.

My thing is that i feel out of control right now so i am dead set on being completely sober from everything for, like i said, a series of months. I can't imagine a whole year, but i'd go as long as i could and then i'd see how i feel. i don't want to ever go back to drinking as much as i am or even using as much kratom or dex as i do, despite kraotm being safe, i still feel it and all these drugs and drinking all negatively effect my quality of life, even if somehow they didn't effect my health so badly, which the drinking most definitely does.

So i want to use a drug, mainly naltrexone, to be able to chemically induce abstainance so i can be drug free as long as i want, and then if i want to use again then i can, and ideally i would like help with my cravings and depression, because i have depression anyone, and it gets worse when in any kind of wd, but my doctor isn't so sure that naltrexone will work for the cravings, which is why she is suggesting suboxone cause it will. But OF COURSE suboxone will help with the cravings, cause it's a freakin opiate, partial agonist or not.

And is it in fact true that kratom is also a partial agonist like suboxone?

That's why i am more interested in ultra low dose naltrexone, because some studies say that you can use and still get effects off kratom at the same time, and not only that, but have it POTENTIATE IT, but at the same time, have it lower your kratom tolerance down to like 2 grams, lessen side effects, and essentially make the kratom wd almost none existent so you can stop kratom if you want, but also reduce cravings to kratom and alcohol and work as a mood booster.

However, ULDN is not as well studied as full dose naltrexone and so my doctor won't prescribe and some of this information MIGHT NOT be true, and most of all, she sees it as an addict wanting to just use a potentiator to take kratom more safely, but that's NOT really how it is, i would STILL want to go without drinking and kratom and everything for AT LEAST a few months before id even consider trying to mix ULDN with kratom and see how it went, and being into harm reduction and not the ''you need to be drug free model'', i see no reason why ultra low dose naltrexone with kratom should be considered a horrible choice.

MY DOCTOR EVEN ADMITTED SHE COULD NOT SEE HOW ULTRA LOW DOSE NALTEXONE, EVEN MIXED WITH KRATOM AND/OR ALCOHOL WOULD BE DANGEROUS, THAT IT MIGHT BLOCK THEM OR MIGHT NOT, BUT STILL WOULDN'T BE DANGEROUS, BUT SHE REFUSED TO PRESCRIBE IT BECAUSE SHE THINKS I'LL JUST BE ''ABUSING IT''.

I just think that that's being a drug nazi, especially when considering she'll give me a drug that is so much stronger than ultra low dose naltrexone in suboxone, but that's the way these doctors are, and she's nicer than most, but still, i think she's wrong.


I just like the idea that with naltrexone of any kind i can have control over whether or not i abstain or moderate with drinking or kratom, and then stop if i want to use again. i want to be sober for a while, and then decide after that if i still want to be sober, but i know i need a lengthy period of sobriety and don't believe i can do it without a drug blocker of some kind, and so that's why i am seeing her. I went to her entirely to get ultra low dose naltrexone, but i had a feeling that she would refuse and only prescribe regular dose, and i was right.

Let me ask you a question though; do you think the idea of taking regular dose naltrexone, then going off it if i wanted to get effects from drinking or taking kratom, then abstaining from the kratom long enough to go back to the naltrexone again, and playing with it in that way would be dangerous, and have you ever heard of anyone who's done it?

My doctor says she has had other addicts do this, and of course she sees that as abusing naltrexone, but i don't care.

I asked her if i were to want to get effects from kratom or drinking how long i'd have to stop taking the naltrexone, she said a few days. Then i asked if i am off the naltrexone and taking kratom again and getting effects from it, how long would i have to abstain from kratom to safely go back to naltrexone again to induce another period of abstainance, seeing as you can't start naltrexone while dependent on an opioid or you'll go into precipitated withdrawals, and she said i'd just have to be sure that i was not at all dependent on kratom.

So, i mean, it seems like the risk would be going back to naltrexone after getting off and using kratom, that i might still be dependent on the kratom and not aware of it and take naltrexone too soon and get precipitated kratom wd, and i don't know if that would be dangerous, as kratom wd is really not a lethal thing, but it would probably feel like a living hell.

I take klonopin though, which i hadn't realized before is what makes my kratom wd and possible mild alcohol wd much less.

So, lets say that i did stop taking naltrexone, took kratom again, and thought i was over the dependence and fucked up and took naltrexone and it put me into precipitated withdrawal, how dangerous would that be?

Would precipitated kratom withdrawal induced by naltrecxone be a really dangerous or lethal situation, or would it just feel like the worst possible kratom wd you could have coming on you all at once and take a while to get over, either tell the naltrexone wore off or the kratom was out of your system?

Is this idea of, admitedly, playing around with going back and forth between naltrexone induced abstainance to stopping to use a little kratom and drink a little, then time everything right and go back to naltrexone again, as i'm sure it is what i'm likely to eventually do, a really really dangerous idea, or would it mostly just be extremely uncomfortable but not super dangerous?

Again, this is why i want ultra low dose naltrexone and not full dose, cause supposedly it acts very differently and possibly helps more with cravings and depression than full dose but you still might be able to take kratom on it, but it might in fact make taking kratom safer with lower tolerance and side effects, IF in fact the info i read is true, which it might not be.

That way, i would not ever have to stop taking the ultra low dose naltrexone, STILL get lowered drug cravings, alcohol would still work but be less pleasurable so i would not want to drink as badly but i still COULD, i could use kratom but probably wouldn't want to that much, so it would be win/win, but no, she won't prescribe it.

She DID say that I could learn to make my own ultra low dose naltrexone from the pills but doesn't recommend it. I said ''yeah, but if i did that i wouldnt have a doctor to help me get the dose right'' and she said 'that's right'', as if to say ''and that's why you shouldn't do it''.....but that's fucked up cause the way i see is that if someone is going to do something anyone it should be a doctor's responsibility to use the information they have to help the patient use the drug or drug combo in the safest way possible. That's harm reduction after all.

But doctors don't see it that way. They see it as ''if I help you and there's side effects and the drug or drug combo is not approved, as ultra low dose naltrexone isn't yet, then i'm legally liable'', and ''if you are afraid of doing it cause you won't have a doctor's help then you might not do it.''

But then again, maybe i WILL use the combo anyway regardless of her advice, and it could be dangerous ONLY because i wouldn't use the combo correctly or get the dosage right, which maybe i WOULD be able to do with her help.

But again, doctors don't care what you want or if you want to get high more safely. They see ''getting high more safely'', or helping a patient do that, as enabling an addict and being legally liable. I say it's giving the person freedom to choose what they put in their body and helping them do what they are already going to do in the safest way possible and not judging them for it.

It's unavoidable that it will always be addicts vs addiction doctors, even though they say they want to help us, their help begins and ends with whatever they think is safest both for the patient and makes them not legally liable should something go wrong.

They don't care about us having freedom to choose what we put in our bodies, and want us to choose between being a drug user who is unhealthy or a sober person who is healthy.

They can't imagine helping a drug user to continue using, or at least having the option, while DOING IT MORE SAFELY...no, that is not an option that is allowed.

So let me know what you think.

I already told her that i don't think i want suboxone but i still want it on the table. I told her i want all options available, from the naltrexone pills to naltrecxone IM shot to suboxone pills and sublocade shot.

But, she wants me to get the naltrexone IM shot as she says it is what helps me get the dosage best over the pills and, here's the kicker she doesn't want me to be able to have the choice to stop taking the naltrexone pills if i want to drink or use kratom, which i can't do if i get the shot.

But I said i want to start with the pills and see if the work and only get the shot if i decide to so that way if i want to stop taking the pills i can, and that sure, i want them to call suboxone in to the pharamcy and i can pick it up if i want, but i am pretty dead set on not taking it. I just think it's good to have the option, but i think its a very bad idea like you do and doubt ill do it.

I hope she doesn't get even MORE strict and tell me she won't even give me the naltrexone pills cause she thinks i might stop taking them and will only let me get the shot.

If she does that then i will probably take the shot the first time, which lasts a month, but if after that she won't prescribe the naltrexone pills i will probably try to find a new doctor who will, almost definitely i would sooner or later as i dont' want my choice to drink or take kratom determined for the rest of my life, i only want to have the option TO CHOOSE TO TAKE A MEDICATION WHICH WILL FORCE ME TO BE SOBER.

I mean, when you are in this position of liking drugs, but knowing you need to stop for a while and can't moderate and can't abstain without help, then doesn't the option of a pill that induces chemical abstainance seem like a great option to have?

I think it sounds great that if i want to be sober for any length of time i can take something that will make me be sober, but i only need to stop taking it for a few days if i want to use kratom or drink again, but i don't know how dangerous going back and forth will be if i do it, and again, i feel that IF in fact ULDN works the way some people think it might, that it's crazy i'm not allowed to take A MUCH LOWER DOSE OF A MEDICATION SHE'S ALREADY WILLING TO PRESCRIBE.

But, then again, you don't need a prescription to buy naltrexone, and i'm not sure you even need one to buy ultra low dose naltrecxone, but i'm afraid to use the dark web because i am the least computer literate person ever lol. But maybe i can buy ultra low dose naltrexone on the clear net and not even be at risk.

Do you know if you can buy ultra low dose naltrexone on the clear net legally, and do you think it would be hard to figure out how to make my own ultra low dose naltrexone from the full dose she gives me and get the dose right, consider i know NOTHING about chemistry?

Please let me know your thoughts, cause i think we are pretty like minded when it comes to this stuff.

 

[Mycophile]

OP the main question I would ask is do you want to quit the opiates and alcohol?

If you want to quit for yourself then you should be able to manage a taper. But you need to be sure you want to quit, don't expect some kind of magic bullet to do it for you. If you don't truly wanna quit then even if you manage to stop taking kratom and booze in the short-term, you will relapse quickly anyway.

But if you do want to quit then set out a taper plan and stick to it. Imo you really don't need subs for such a mild habit. Kratom is much easier to taper from than bupe. And your clonazepam script will cover your alcohol withdrawal. So you should be set with what you have, no need to start out on a much stronger opioid.

That's my opinion anyway. I tapered from an oxy habit with no help from bupe, but if someone else thought they needed bupe to get off oxy I wouldn't advise against it, oxy is a harsh mistress. But if someone is only taking kratom I honestly think jumping to bupe is only climbing up the opioid ladder and will make things much harder in the long-term.

To clarify about withdrawal, the people who say it's easy are often those who use it for a week to taper off a stronger opioid like H or oxy and therefore never actually become dependent on it. If you take bupe as maintenance and build dependence on it, withdrawals are likely to be rough, certainly rougher than kratom.

Yeah, from all of the things you guys say I believe that suboxone is stronger than kratom and that i'd be making a bad decision to use it but I told my doctor this and she of course doesn't agree.

She actually says she has used suboxone to help, in her words ''many Kratom addicts''!!

How could this possibly be true?!!

Maybe she just made their habit worse and still weaned them off subs without knowing, or my guess, is that many of the people she saw who were using kratom were probably just using it to wean off hard opiates like heroin or oxy or methadone and so probably were not really even over their hard-opiate withdrawals at all and just looking to stabalize on something that didn't require so much redosing or thinking like kratom, and so perhaps their feeling better in the end was only because the suboxone helped with their heroin or hard opiate withdrawal, making it FEEL as if the suboxone was milder than the kratom because they were really still addicted to their hard opiate.

Could that be the case and why kratom users would have asked her for suboxone and why she'd think that kratom is a stronger substance?

Afterall, I have heard that when you switch from one opiate to another you basically just take that last opiate addiction with you as it piggy backs along and so maybe you are kind of doing better on the kratom but not over the hard drug withdrawals.

In fact, and this is a new guess of mine, but i would assume that these kratom users she weaned off with suboxone probably wanted suboxone BECAUSE THE SUBOXONE IS STRONGER THAN KRATOM AND THE SUBOXONE WAS NOT HELPING THEIR HEROIN OR HARD DRUG ADDICTION ENOUGH.

Do you think that could be the scenario and why she has helped kratom users off it with suboxone and thinks kratom is worse, because the scenario is really that these people were still in hard opiate withdrawal and that's what she was seeing and thinking it was caused by the kratom, without actually knowing it wasn't?

I mean, we all know that USUALLY kratom users are not going to go to a doctor like this for a kratom addiction alone, and i wouldn't be there for kratom alone either, and it's usually heroin and hard drug users who she'd be seeing who would come to her, and those people would have tried to use kratom very likely.

Seems plausible right, considering that if my only issue was kratom and not also alcohol and dexadrine i would DEFINITELY NOT have gone to see her. That would not be necessary.

I've gotten off kratom many times, but never while anywhere near as dependent as i am this time, and i've gotten off dexadrine too, but never both of them at once along with alcohol, though i don't think i am really addicted to booze.

But as far as asking me if i want to quit alcohol and kratom, it's like this;

I DO NOT want to quit kratom or alcohol FOREVER. NO WAY.

BUT...I can't moderate with either, or dexadrine, or much of anything, and all of it is really messing me up.

So i read about both regular dose and ultra low dose naltrexone, and while i am much more interested in ULDN than full dose, she won't prescribe it, which i think is dumb.

But anyway...I'm thinking ''I can't moderate, and I don't want to quit drugs and drinking forever, but what could work better to FORCE me to have a long period of sobriety other than a drug i can take that makes it so i can't get high or drunk?''

I know i don't want to never use drugs or drink again, but I know it's ESSENTIAL right now that I stop all drugs and drinking for AT LEAST 6 months.

I want to start with a month, then the next goal would be 3, and then after that 6. I think 9 would be amazing, and if i pulled off a year, which i don't even know i'd want, then that would be incredible.

How i will feel after however much time i take off drugs and drinking is what i'll have to see, but i think i'll like it a lot cause I have allowed myself to get very unhealthy, very overweight from the drinking, and to top it all off, i have high cholesterol that i need to address, which i can't address because the doctor thinks that it would probably go down to safe levels if i could lose 40lbs, but i can't cause i cant stop drinking.

So with several months to a year if possible clean i will start doing the physical therapy exercises i have to do for my neck and knee injuries from brazilian jiu-jitsu, which is another way i have become very unhealthy by not being physically active for MONTHS or doing these exercises that are necessary for my neck and knees to stay strong.

So i figure i'll get on the naltrexone and abstain from all drinking and drugs as long as i can and go back to doing as much physical therapy and dieting as i can, and my exercises involve a lot of weight and kettlebell lifting so i'll get strong again, and my cholesterol will go down and i'll lose weight and my sleep quality will improve and i'll feel great again.

At that point i would hope i would not allow myself to go back to drinking or kratom, but i would probably want to be able to SOMETIMES.

I just like the idea that with naltrexone of any kind i can have control over whether or not i abstain or moderate with drinking or kratom, and then stop if i want to use again. i want to be sober for a while, and then decide after that if i still want to be sober, but i know i need a lengthy period of sobriety and don't believe i can do it without a drug blocker of some kind, and so that's why i am seeing her. I went to her entirely to get ultra low dose naltrexone, but i had a feeling that she would refuse and only prescribe regular dose, and i was right.

Let me ask you a question though; do you think the idea of taking regular dose naltrexone, then going off it if i wanted to get effects from drinking or taking kratom, then abstaining from the kratom long enough to go back to the naltrexone again, and playing with it in that way would be dangerous, and have you ever heard of anyone who's done it?

My doctor says she has had other addicts do this, and of course she sees that as abusing naltrexone, but i don't care.

I asked her if i were to want to get effects from kratom or drinking how long i'd have to stop taking the naltrexone, she said a few days. Then i asked if i am off the naltrexone and taking kratom again and getting effects from it, how long would i have to abstain from kratom to safely go back to naltrexone again to induce another period of abstainance, seeing as you can't start naltrexone while dependent on an opioid or you'll go into precipitated withdrawals, and she said i'd just have to be sure that i was not at all dependent on kratom.

So, i mean, it seems like the risk would be going back to naltrexone after getting off and using kratom, that i might still be dependent on the kratom and not aware of it and take naltrexone too soon and get precipitated kratom wd, and i don't know if that would be dangerous, as kratom wd is really not a lethal thing, but it would probably feel like a living hell.

I take klonopin though, which i hadn't realized before is what makes my kratom wd and possible mild alcohol wd much less.

So, lets say that i did stop taking naltrexone, took kratom again, and thought i was over the dependence and fucked up and took naltrexone and it put me into precipitated withdrawal, how dangerous would that be?

Would precipitated kratom withdrawal induced by naltrecxone be a really dangerous or lethal situation, or would it just feel like the worst possible kratom wd you could have coming on you all at once and take a while to get over, either tell the naltrexone wore off or the kratom was out of your system?

Is this idea of, admitedly, playing around with going back and forth between naltrexone induced abstainance to stopping to use a little kratom and drink a little, then time everything right and go back to naltrexone again, as i'm sure it is what i'm likely to eventually do, a really really dangerous idea, or would it mostly just be extremely uncomfortable but not super dangerous?

Also, what I really want is ultra low dose naltrexone which you can supposedly take WHILE ON KRATOM AND OPIOIDS, and which helps with withdrawal but also cravings, but she won't prescribe it, only full dose, but it's legal to buy naltrexone, not sure if could find ultra low dose online though.

So do you know if it would be really hard to learn to turn the high dose naltrexone she gives me into ultra low dose and get the dose right?

Cause that's what i want to do.

 

[Mycophile]

Problem is when you do get sober off opiates there is a flat and grey period of life where you can't necessarily enjoy or be excited by things. Subs help with that feeling, but whenever I am clean trust me I don't feel good. I feel accomplished, but the cravings sometimes are ridiculous and ahedonia--inability to enjoy things is what makes me want to relapse. People only talk about physical withdrawals or worry about those, but sometimes the PAWs are worse by some means. God damn dude. Kratom might be less severe in this regard.

That's what i am so worried about, and that's why she is suggesting suboxone, but we all seem to agree that that is worse so i don't think i should take it.

I know it will be bad, but do you think that going clean off kratom, dexadrine and alcohol is going to bad as bad as what you've experienced with harder drugs, and even if not, how bad do you think it will be and how long do you think it will last?

That's why I want ultra low dose naltrexone and not high dose, but she won't prescribe it, because supposedly you can take kratom and opioids while on it but it also helps with cravings and produces endorphins to help with the withdrawal in a way that the high dose doesn't, but she won't let me have it and i'm pissed about it.

I know it's legal to buy naltrexone online and there are instructions to make ultra low dose naltrexone from the high dose pills she gives me, but do you think it would be hard to figure it out and get the dose right

I mean, that's also why i want oral naltrexone pills, even at the high dose, and not the shot, cause that way if the PAWS is unbearable i can stop taking the naltrexone for a few days and the kratom euphoria would come back and i could take it, but then i could only go back to the naltrexone if i wasn't dependent on kratom, so i'd have to get off again.

Do you think that PAWS is necessarily an inevitability?

Could I possibly NOT get PAWS or at least not have it last that long?

I mean, you don't suggest suboxone, so really, what option do i have other than dealing with the possible PAWS?

Is there anything else i could take that wouldn't be a worse drug that would help and are you sure that the naltrexone won't help with that ?

 

[Mycophile]

Very true, the PAWS can easily be worse in the long-term than the initial week long withdrawal. When I got off oxy it was like two months of not being able to feel anything. Even when I was with my girlfriend I felt nothing, no happiness no love no horniness nothing. I had to make her understand it's the withdrawals making me like that.

Thankfully for me the PAWS did only last a couple months and I'm all back to normal now and honestly I feel much happier than I was during my oxy habit so it was worth it in the end. But for some people PAWS can last longer and that's a struggle.

You're certainly a lot more likely to get PAWS coming off bupe than kratom, and also PAWS are more likely to occur with longer habits and also with relapses. Each time you quit and start again, quitting gets more and more difficult. It used to be when I quit oxy my normal self rushed back and I actually felt good despite the physical withdrawals. But last time the PAWS hit me and it was just pure depressing.

Yeah I know and I'm worried about it but I believe you guys are right that i shouldn't use bupe so what other option do i have?

Is there anything else I could take that could help, and do PAWS always necessarily happen, or at least when they do, are they always necessarily unbearable or do they always last really long?

And please see my other much longer post where I explained that i would like the option of going on and off the naltrexone when i want to be able to induce sobriety for a while and then use again if i want and as to how dangerous you think that is, and also whether or not you think it would be hard to learn to make ultra low dose naltrexone from higher dose pills.

That's what i want and what i think would help from anecdotes i've read, and i might then not even have to stop kratom, just use it WITH kratom and SUPPOSEDLY, according to some people, though not proven, it works better to relieve cravings than high dose and allows you to get effects from kratom/opiates but reduces side effects and tolerance, but this doctor knows i want to use it that way so she won't prescribe it, but she'll fucking prescribe something that will probably make my withdrawals worse and that you can get high off which pisses me off.

Do you have any idea as to how one might make ultra low dose naltrexone from high dose and get the dose right and whether or not it would be hard for someone who never even took chemistry in school?

I know i read on reddit that people have done it, and that's what i want to do, but how i would i don't know.

The fact that this doctor won't prescribe it infuriates me, and i have heard that there are places in new york city near me that do prescribe it, so i will probably see if i can go see them and get it, but i don't know how likely it is anyone will give it to me because it's very experimental treatment, even despite the fact that my doctor said she doesn't see it as dangerous, she's too freakin afraid to be experimental and let me try it cause she thinks something could go wrong. Meanwhile, she's not afraid of the possibility of making me more addicted to opioids with suboxone. The hypocrisy astounds me, and she's nice too, but obviously stuck in the loop that no doctor can get out of of being willing to prescribe what a patient wants if it's experimental and she's afraid she could get sued.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

That's what i am so worried about, and that's why she is suggesting suboxone, but we all seem to agree that that is worse so i don't think i should take it.

I know it will be bad, but do you think that going clean off kratom, dexadrine and alcohol is going to bad as bad as what you've experienced with harder drugs, and even if not, how bad do you think it will be and how long do you think it will last?

That's why I want ultra low dose naltrexone and not high dose, but she won't prescribe it, because supposedly you can take kratom and opioids while on it but it also helps with cravings and produces endorphins to help with the withdrawal in a way that the high dose doesn't, but she won't let me have it and i'm pissed about it.

I know it's legal to buy naltrexone online and there are instructions to make ultra low dose naltrexone from the high dose pills she gives me, but do you think it would be hard to figure it out and get the dose right

I mean, that's also why i want oral naltrexone pills, even at the high dose, and not the shot, cause that way if the PAWS is unbearable i can stop taking the naltrexone for a few days and the kratom euphoria would come back and i could take it, but then i could only go back to the naltrexone if i wasn't dependent on kratom, so i'd have to get off again.

Do you think that PAWS is necessarily an inevitability?

Could I possibly NOT get PAWS or at least not have it last that long?

I mean, you don't suggest suboxone, so really, what option do i have other than dealing with the possible PAWS?

Is there anything else i could take that wouldn't be a worse drug that would help and are you sure that the naltrexone won't help with that ?

I'm a little sleep deprived from writing a paper and other things right now but I'll try to answer my opinion on the subject. I think that you're a meticulous person from how you post and you think a lot about factors and probably like being in control. The more you think about it the more the withdrawal will be apparent. I think of opiate withdrawal as a bad acid trip--you just try to get to the next point no matter how bad it gets and remember that it's temporary and will eventually be over. Provided, for you personally I don't think it will be that bad. I won't lie to you--you will feel some anxiety, depression, and fatigue (physically and mentally). You're going to be uncomfortable and feel grief no matter what method you use or tools but kratom effects are not as pronounced or as long-lasting as the half life of kratom seems shorter than oxy undoubtedly. The problem I see down the line is that you might want to self-diagnose the mental factor with something like booze, hence why I think you should quit one substance at a time.

The hardest part in my opinion is figuring out how to adjust to life without the buzz. Kratom high isn't as addictive as stronger opiates (I'm pretty adamant on this claim), so this factor won't be so overwhelming. However, you will most definitely want to start taking it again and have cravings I can be sure of that. Its really monotonous to go about your day over and over and feel like something about your life is missing. It's synonymous to breaking up with someone you really love in my opinion who is an abusive partner. So to summarize it up, you'll feel uncomfortable indefinitely and might struggle with adjusting to the non-opiate life but physically and mentally it won't be as severe as what most people have gone through. I can't even imagine what heroin withdrawal is like. Keep reminding yourself that it's temporary and eventually the happiness and total comfort does really come back. It's easy to forget that you're not going to feel so crappy ALL THE TIME. That's why I think opiate withdrawal is synonymous to a bad psychedelic trip. Sometimes it feels like an eternity when it's really just your mind playing tricks on you. Remember why you're doing it at all points. Even kratom is just a dead end and opiate habits just always keep progressing and getting worse and worse. I think it's better to get out as soon as you can. I can tell you from personal experience, it can be unpredictable to quit and relapsing can be part of the process. Make sure if you do relapse to not go back into your old habits as if you only use for a day or two then return to the sober life you at least won't be using again like you were in the past.

The withdrawal hits you in waves. It's super crazy in that regard. Some moments you'll feel totally 100% normal and then the next hour you could be having a panic attack or feel ghastly. Some days were great even during the PAWS period... other ways were potentially the worst in my life. It's very unpredictable for everyone imo. I think the PAWs for kratom may only be a month or two at most. For me after 2 years of daily use I was still feeling a little bit down and anxious after 5 months but that is a bit longer than most people experience. By that time however, I started eating kratom to feel totally normal again for better and for worse.

 

[xivixive]

Hey buddy. I remember you said you live next to a seed tea resource lol! Why don't you just use seed tea again?

I think there are definitely folks out there who beneftit from a life-long opiate addiction and can handle it. I'm just wondering why you switched from kratom to seed tea when someone with your tolerance would never have to ideally worry about an overdose.

i got arrested several times in 3 years, each mostly to blame on alcohol. the last time caught a felony and sentenced to 6 months jail / 5 years probation / drug counseling. the drug counselor nor probation officer were impressed by my ability to get morphine over the counter. so it was in my system without a prescription. which is a violation of drug counseling. and if i dont comply with counseling that is a probation violation. if i violate probation i go to prison for 2 years.

so... no more seeds

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Yeah, from all of the things you guys say I believe that suboxone is stronger than kratom and that i'd be making a bad decision to use it but I told my doctor this and she of course doesn't agree.

She actually says she has used suboxone to help, in her words ''many Kratom addicts''!!

How could this possibly be true?!!

Well it's certainly possible she has prescribed subs to many kratom addicts. Whether that counts as "helping" is subjective and I'd argue in most cases it probably does more harm than good in the long-term, assuming you are talking about maintenance and not a short-term taper.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

i got arrested several times in 3 years, each mostly to blame on alcohol. the last time caught a felony and sentenced to 6 months jail / 5 years probation / drug counseling. the drug counselor nor probation officer were impressed by my ability to get morphine over the counter. so it was in my system without a prescription. which is a violation of drug counseling. and if i dont comply with counseling that is a probation violation. if i violate probation i go to prison for 2 years.

so... no more seeds

I'm so sorry man. I disagree with society forcing people into sobriety especially when they've become so acquainted to substances over the years. But at the end of the day the government has so much power over us and inevitably sometimes we have to conform or be decimated by the legal system lol

I'm glad you're trying to change your lifestyle though to pass those unreasonable demands. I bet they were pretty shocked to even find out seed tea exists. "Not impressed" lol. Sorry something about that made me laugh. I'm sure they were highly suspicious it and wouldn't have believed you about poppy seeds containing morphine content.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Why will she prescribe full dose naltrexone and suboxone but not ultra low dose naltrexone?

To touch the subject again a bit more clear

'dr's don' t prescribe what you want or need. They prescribe what they believe is necessary'

 

[Mycophile]

To touch the subject again a bit more clear

'dr's don' t prescribe what you want or need. They prescribe what they believe is necessary'

Yeah, I know that's how they work, although i don't think anyone should have say over what anyone puts or doesn't put in their body.

Obviously this is the way it works, but if you think it's morally right that they or anyone should be able to make these decisions for us, and should we choose to make what they deem a ''less healthy choice'', not use their medical knowledge to help us proceed in the safest way possible with what we have already decided to do so that we do ourselves as little damage as possible with their help, then we are on opposite sides of the fence and have nothing to talk about. I think that's what harm reduction should be about ''I'm not able to deny you what you want, i won't suggest what i think isn't right, but if you are going to do it anyway then i won't stop you, i'll help you to do use what you are already going to use in the safest way possible because it is wrong for me to control what you put in your body or not help you to the extent that i can.

They are only willing to help you IN THE WAY THEY WANT with whatever meds THEY ARE WILLING TO PRESCRIBE, just like society is only willing to let you not be arrested for using their legal drugs like alcohol and cigarettes, and not allow you to use the drugs you prefer. Those get you thrown in a cell.

There's the way things work and the way different people think they SHOULD work, but we don't live a world that caters to our needs, and the doctors and the laws they are subject to unfortunately have control over us, which i think is really messed up.

What's more is that ultra low dose naltrexone is even by her own admission not dangerous, and just a much much lower dosage of the same medication she's already willing to prescribe.

So if you don't think things should be different then good for you, as it will certainly make it easier for you to be satisfied with this crappy world we live in than it is for me.

Do you really believe it wouldn't be better if we had the choice of drugs we wanted and our choice of treatments and if we could have doctors help us to use whatever we have decided on in the safest way possible, rather than having complete control over us?

Do you think that all the drugs that are illegal should remain illegal?

I think it's all part of the same system. The system that says certain drugs will get your thrown in jail is the same system that says doctors can only prescribe you what they want and only help you avoid harming yourself if you use their protocol. How anyone would not be in support of both legalized drugs and doctors helping you to use whatever you choose to in the safest way possible but still be posting on this forum is beyond me.

Usually people like that don't post on forums like this that are usually all about cognitive liberty.

 

[Mycophile]

Well it's certainly possible she has prescribed subs to many kratom addicts. Whether that counts as "helping" is subjective and I'd argue in most cases it probably does more harm than good in the long-term, assuming you are talking about maintenance and not a short-term taper.

NOW she's telling me she wants to give me only a short term sub taper, but i had not been clear that that was what she wanted before, but i'm worried i've pissed her off to the point that perhaps she won't want anything to do with me anymore because she tried to text me today to help me but i was asleep and now she didn't respond to my message or text but i only just left them.

Do you think i should do a short term one week taper of suboxone like she's offering or is that a bad idea?

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

"Oh you need to get off kratom? Here is 18 grams of dilauded daily and please take this methadone for the sickness in between doses." Jk at least it wasn't like that.

Be patient OP. Questioning doctors is one way to quickly lose their desire to treat you. Even though I disagree with using subs for kratom use, it will at least help you get off what you're trying to escape. These aren't super potent drugs. You're not going to become incredibly dopesick so plz see the treatment out until the end or acquire a different doctor if this does not work out.

 

[Mycophile]

So...the deal is she only wants me to do short term sub detox and NOT maintainance and says this will just make me comfortable while in kratom wd and NOT dependent on suboxone.

Is this a better idea or do you think it's still a bad one and that i'll end up worse off than before?

And does suboxone help with alcohol and dexadrine WD, cause I'll be in dex WD and maybe only MINOR alcohol wd?

The prideful part of me wants to prove to her and myself that kratom wd isn't bad and I don't need suboxone.

I think I'm just going to try to cold turkey kratom if i can, and i slip up taking a little, like basically not a strict taper but not cold turkey, just skipping days when i can and if i mess up always taking lower doses than usually and preferably more spaced out and i won't be dependent anymore. I see there as being no difference between tapering one partial agonist in kratom that i'm used to vs tapering with another partial agonist, suboxoone, that i'm not.

I'm sure my doctor disagrees though.

What do you guys think?

Why switch to suboxone, especially since it MIGHT be stronger, and do a sub taper, rather than just doing a kratom taper?

 

[Mycophile]

"Oh you need to get off kratom? Here is 18 grams of dilauded daily and please take this methadone for the sickness in between doses." Jk at least it wasn't like that.

Be patient OP. Questioning doctors is one way to quickly lose their desire to treat you. Even though I disagree with using subs for kratom use, it will at least help you get off what you're trying to escape. These aren't super potent drugs. You're not going to become incredibly dopesick so plz see the treatment out until the end or acquire a different doctor if this does not work out.

What, you think tapreing kratom and then using naltrexone isn't ok and that i have to take her suggestion of using suboxone?

My brother doesn't think i should take suboxone either.

He's like ''dude, you've stopped kratom before, its' just that this time will be worse because you are more dependent, so don't decide ahead of time that it's going to be too much for you to handle and try to do it yourself, whether by tapering or cold turkey, and THEN if you can't do it consider suboxone, but at least try doing it yourself first.''

I want to do that cause i think suboxone might be stronger than kratom and want to prove to myself and my doctor that kratom isn't a big deal.

It's doctors like this who make up panels that are trying to ban kratom and i have klonopin to help me with both kratom and any mild booze wd.

So far i think this doctor sees me as a ''difficult patient'', but she texted me back and we are still on good terms.

I want the naltrexone she has to offer, though she is saying i should get a 30-day shot and i want oral pills and to decide on whether i want the shot later, but i don't want to decide i can't taper or even cold turkey kratom like i have before without even seeing if i can handle it.

That feels mentally weak to me.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

She has the right idea imo. I know you want to be on sub maintenance long term but it's only going to make you dependent on subs and that's not the easiest to get off of either. She's trying to minimize the damage so you come off it easy. It's up to you to decide when you're off the two substances if you return to kratom or not.

This is why I didn't think it was a god idea to get off of both alcohol, dexedrine, and kratom at the same time. You might not be able to discern which side effects are from what withdrawal. Imo, stims help the withdrawal feeling become less feelable. I'd go for getting off of drinking and kratom a priority imo... but dexedrine seems to be okay so far.

 

[Mycophile]

She has the right idea imo. I know you want to be on sub maintenance long term but it's only going to make you dependent on subs and that's not the easiest to get off of either. She's trying to minimize the damage so you come off it easy. It's up to you to decide when you're off the two substances if you return to kratom or not.

This is why I didn't think it was a god idea to get off of both alcohol, dexedrine, and kratom at the same time. You might not be able to discern which side effects are from what withdrawal. Imo, stims help the withdrawal feeling become less feelable. I'd go for getting off of drinking and kratom a priority imo... but dexedrine seems to be okay so far.

NO dude, i said not only do i NOT want to be on sub maintainence long term, i don't even want to take it at all and i'm probably not going to unless i literally can't tolerate the kratom wd and wean myself off myself.

I'm not sure if you are carefully reading my posts cause i've said that many times.

And i know what you mean about it being hard to stop all at once, but i'm still going to attempt to do that.

I can't take dexadrine and feel good on it unless i am also on kratom and even then sometimes dex makes me feel like shit.

I have generalized anxiety disorder and dexadrine makes it worse and i never should have started in the first place and kratom takes the edge off of it but no way am i going to take dexadrine without kratom and i can't do it because i've tried before and if i take the dex it makes me want to take kratom and also vice versa, if i take kratom i often, but not always, want dex. Drinking also makes me want both of them the next day for the hang over, so i have to stop all of them at once, and that's what i'm going to do, regardless of how hard it is, i don't feel i can do it any other way.

I also do NOT find that dexadrine makes my kratom wd easier. i once thought it would because my main kratom wd symptom is extreme fatigue so i figured a stim would help with that, in fact, that's the main reason i got on dexadrine in the first place, and then i found out that it makes me feel MUCH worse. It doesn't help with the fatigue i get from kratom wd, it just makes me super edgy and makes it all worse and then i want kratom to make that feeling go away.


And yeah, i have found that kratom wd and dexadrine wd often feel similar cause i get severe lethargy and depression from both so i could be confused about which one i am feeling at which time but i'm not sure that matters necessarily cause i think my doctor is going to run a drug test to see if i have kratom in my system before she puts me on naltrexone, which will block me from taking kratom or drinking, so even if i can't distinguish i think we'll find a way to know that i'm over the kratom wd enough for me to start the naltrexone.

The only concern i have is that since i think i'm going to try to taper or quit the kratom myself at first at least without taking subs that i could think that i am not able to tolerate the kratom wd and take a little to try to feel better and maybe it was really dex wd so i just prolonged the amount of time the kratom is in my system before i can start taking naltrexone, but regardless, i am pretty sure my doctor and i will figure out once i'm over the kratom enough to put me on natlrexone, especially since i'll be counting the days i am able to go without or if i take it, how much or on which days.


I really just need to get to that point where i am over the acute kratom WD and immediately get on naltrexone and that takes care of the rest cause i can't get effect from kratom or drinking on it. I can get effect from dexadrine, but i don't like how dexadrine feels without kratom, and i am not even planning on refilling my dex prescription this month so i don't have it.


Of course, I don't think the naltrexone will fully help me deal with the cravings for kratom and booze and dex or the PAWS if i get any, but the only thing that probably would is subs, and that's at the risk of getting me addicted to something else i have to go off of, so if there's any way i can avoid doing that i will.


i know i'm in for a really hard time, both acute wd from all these things, PAWS and depression, but I'm still going for all at once. If i silp up and take a little kratom it will be as little as possible, if i drink as little as possible, same for dex, but i'll be out soon so i shouldn't have it any more if i resist getting it refilled, then take naltrexone and i'll be blocked from getting dependent on kratom or drinking until i decide i want to stop, and then i'm just gonna work on being sober for as long as possible, and be prepared for a living hell, but there's no way around that.