Harm Reduction My doc wants to prescribe suboxone for alcohol and Kratom, should I do it?

[Mycophile]

So, I've never used serious hard drugs like heroin or meth or any of that, but I'm admmitadly an alcoholic (not as bad as some, I drink about a bottle of wine 4-5 nights a week in the past few months), Kratom addict who was able to stave off Kratom addiction for years, but been dosing about 24-36 grams, 2-3 doses total a day for the past 2-2 1/2 months, and taking Dexadrine 20mgs once a day for about 3 months.

I've always been able to break my Kratom dependencies temporarily before by just sleeping for 3-5 days pretty much, and the same thing with Dexadrine which took about 11 days to get over when I did it over the summer. I've never had alcohol withdrawal, but i now realize that the fact that I take Klonopin is what has made both my Kratom WD and potentially any mild alcohol WD symptoms much easier.

But even though I totally love Kratom and drinking, and to slightly less extent dexadrine, I know it's time for me to get sober for as long as possible cause it's all causing too many problems in my life. I will never decide, or cannot imaging ever deciding to quit any of these drugs permanently, but I'm dead set on starting with a full month without ANYTHING, then hopefully 3 months, then hopefully 6, and we'll see where it goes.

So I started seeing a social worker who is a former addict and pretty cool guy who's a drug counseler and he suggest a psychopharmacologist.

I want her to prescribe me ultra low dose naltrexone because I heard that it gives an endorphine mood boost for my moderate depression, helps with cravings, and because I've HEARD that it can supposedly be taken with kratom safely, potentiating the high BUT simultaneoulsy making you not really want to take Kratom or alcohol, which sounds like the best of both worlds, and lowering tolerance and supposedly eliminating side effects, whereas normal naltrexone blocks opioids completely, and I also want either that or high dose naltrexone for alcohol.

This doctor at first listened to my proposal for ultra low dose naltrexone and considered it, but now says its' ''too experimental and if i am thinking of taking it with kratom then she can't feel safe giving it to me'', which frankly i think is bullshit, since she admitted that she can't see how it could be dangerous, and only doubts ULDN may work as well for cravings as high dose nal.

Truth is, i know I'd want to EVENTUALLY try mixing ULDN w/ kratom, but initially I would just want sobriety and lower cravings.

However, she is willing to give me either suboxone or regular naltrexone.

Id take regular naltrexone to just prevent me from drinking or taking kratom for a while so i can be sure to be sober, but I am frankly pretty baffled that she'll prescribe suboxone but not ultra low dose naltrexone since i have read on here a number of times that people use suboxone to get high.

Thing is...I DON'T WANT ANOTHER ADDICTIVE DRUG THAT CAN GET ME HIGH.

I don't want to replace Kratom and drinking with suboxone if it's just another high, and frankly, my guess is that suboxone is a stronger opiate than kratom and I told her I thought that was the case and she said ''how could suboxone be stronger than kratom when it's only a partial agonist and partial blocker?''

I don't know, but I read suboxone has high abuse potential, I know some of you guys get high off it, and i read it can be lethal to combine with alcohol, and while that would certainly scare me away from drinking, and I want to not drink for a while anyway, i don't know how comfortable I feel taking something lethal with booze either.

Does suboxone actually even block a person from getting drunk like it blocks opioids?

If so I'd feel safer taking it in that way because I'd know there'd be no point in trying to drink on it anyway.

And she says that suboxone will help with my kratom WD, which is appealing, but while I know this round of kratom WD will be worse than any in the past because I had never gone more than like 10 days in a row without kratom and now i've gone like 2 1/2 months in a row...I still bet i could just sleep for a week on christmas break and feel like shit but still get off kratom and be ok without it.

So, basically, my question is, considering I DON'T want something else that can get me high, and I want reduced cravings for kratom, alcohol and other drugs, and that I don't know if it blocks alcohol and is lethal to combine it, would you really recommend it for someone like me who does want a period of sobriety but doesn't have an issue with a more serious drug like Heroin or Oxy??

I mean, I bet a lot of you guys would JUMP at the chance for suboxone cause I read that some of you like it and bupe, which I guess is part of what is in subs, because I've read your threads about liking it, but anything more than a mild antidepressant effect is not what I want.

She does say that suboxone could give a mild mood boost as it is used off label as an antidepressant, and that interests me cause i have depression, but that's also why i was interested in ULDN cause that isn't abusable but also has that function.

When i told her i was concerned i might use it to get high and don't want to she said she wouldn't give me enough, but how could i not have enough to get high if she gives me a script and i just take more than i should?

This is one of those very weird cases where an addict wants a MILDER drug, microdosed ultra low dose naltrexone but NOT high dose, and yet is being offered something stronger instead because ''microdosing naltrexone is aytpical and she could get in trouble cause i might mix it with kratom'' LOL

You'd think i'd want a new drug to get high off of, but i dont, and i only wanted ULDN cause i heard that it helps with cravings and mood boosts but ALSO can supposedly safely be taken with kratom IF i want to, even though i also want to ''NOT WANT to use kratom and just be able to theroetically....but no...i feel this could be getting involved with a drug that is worse than kratom.

So, what do you guys think. Seeing as i want something to help me stay sober for at least a few months, reduce cravings and provide a mood boost, all of which i know suboxone does, but who AT THE SAME TIME DOES NOT WANT TO GET HIGH ON SOMETHING ELSE, should i take it?

Or in my case would you take the high dose naltrexone instead cause it won't have me possibly trying to get high off it?

And if suboxone helps with drug cravings but can possibly also be used to get high, then would it possibly reduce my desire to abuse it?

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Buprenorphine (Suboxone) is far stronger than kratom and does nothing for alcohol cravings. You are right to be hesitant about this. Going from kratom to bupe is like someone who drinks a few beers every day drinking a whole bottle of vodka. You are better off trying to taper down your kratom use than getting yourself a bupe habit, because bupe withdrawal is much rougher.

And yes some people do get high from bupe, obviously tolerance builds but bupe is a strong opioid so of course it has a level of abuse potential.

I recommend not taking subs just to get off kratom, that's seriously trying to kill a fly with a blowtorch.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Lke giving someone dependent on a 6-pack a day a enormous benzo dose for the wd's.

Mycophile my experience with dr's is they don' t prescribe what you want or need. Excluding the one who broke any textbook rule, his Aristoteles ode and had no integrity. That one would write what I'd ask. Too bad he missed a brain.

But imo tapering the Kratom is the way to go YMMV. Leaving the Bupe out would be a benefit in the longterm.

The Ethanol is harder, again for me personally. So tapering and stopping that first would be my preferable way. No clue how to do that atm but with aid of Kratom it seems easy. Switch to and taper the Kratom No idea about your usage but ime it had a ceeling so I was on 2,5/ 3.5 grams dossises a few times a day (5/ 7 ?)
You could adjust your dex-Amfetamin a bit downward's (1/2 to 2/3 of the normal) to avoid excessive stim stress during wd's.

You on any other med's? Current Alcohol intake/ tolerance?

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

I agree with Wilson, kratom is far weaker than suboxone. It's easier to taper down (as there are minimal withdrawals I've found from gradually tapering down off kratom specifically), than to deal with suboxone. Some say subs are easy to withdraw from, others tell you it's a nightmare.

It's up to you though--not like it's a deplorable choice for your habits.

 

[stom10]

I'd return and ask about full dose naltrexone instead, saying you intend to stop kratom. I'd adhere to the stated plan for a while, but then eventually you can of course use your naltrexone script to dose low or ultra low

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Sub can counter alcohol euphoria. It is a fortunate find when it comes to opioid addiction.

Kratom has some good things about it, but you still wouldn't be able to keep things at a precise dose. And, the cost.

People can get monstrous withdrawals from kratom cessation.

Sub, what your doctor recommended, deserves its day in court (it's a saying that says at least give what the doc says a try).

You don't need to know precisely how it works. Heck, I don't. It's a complicated substance. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work. Literature supports suboxone for treatment of opioid and alcohol addiction.

 

[Mycophile]

Buprenorphine (Suboxone) is far stronger than kratom and does nothing for alcohol cravings. You are right to be hesitant about this. Going from kratom to bupe is like someone who drinks a few beers every day drinking a whole bottle of vodka. You are better off trying to taper down your kratom use than getting yourself a bupe habit, because bupe withdrawal is much rougher.

And yes some people do get high from bupe, obviously tolerance builds but bupe is a strong opioid so of course it has a level of abuse potential.

I recommend not taking subs just to get off kratom, that's seriously trying to kill a fly with a blowtorch.

RIGHT!?

Why will she prescribe full dose naltrexone and suboxone but not ultra low dose naltrexone?

Am I not AT WORST just remaining dependent on opiate just the same, partial agonist or not?

Other than the suboxone MAYBE helping cravings, it seems no different really than going down to a lower dose of Kratom--i would remain dependent on an opioid.

And I have read accounts that suboxone might not only NOT block Kratom as Kratom is atypical, but POSSIBLY POTENTIATE IT, and yet that could be, and i should assume it is, a dangerous combination.

So if i fuck up and take kratom while on suboxone maybe it blocks it but is dangerous unlike taking naltrexone while on kratom (oncer all the kratom wd is over of course as you can't start naltrexone while on it ) then the combination could hurt me, and if somehow it DOESN'T block it, which many people have said it didn't for them, then i fuck up and take a combo of drugs that maybe potentiate eachother and stay dependent on BOTH now, and risk danger.

Only if it works so well that i never take kratom or combine it with alcohol am i possibly in a better situation, but i still don't really see, again other than cravings, how it is better than tapering kratom.

AND OF COURSE it helps with cravings BECAUSE IT'S A PARTIAL OPIOID!!

That's why lower dose kratom would also help with kratom cravings.

Yeah, i get that it could also help with alcohol cravings so it has that over kratom, but if i mess up and drink on suboxone that too is dangerous, while according to my doctor neither drinking or taking kratom on naltrexone is dangerous, it just blocks it, but her concern is that naltrexone might not help enough with my cravings, and while that would suck, i don't see it being a step in the right direction rather than just getting off kratom, alcohol and dexadrine altogether.

I think suboxone JUST LIKE KRATOM, is for SERIOUS opiate dependencies like heroin, oxy, even methadone, and NOT KRATOM.

I think that this doctor's reluctance to try ultra low dose naltrexone in favor of high dose nalterxone and suboxone is frankly cowardly and typical of doctors who don't know about experimental methods and will just stick with what is approved.

 

[neversickanymore]

I would go for it. How many people know a decent percentage of the drug using population that get wrecked on alcohol taking subs? Not many if any. I think you may have a very bright Dr. Check into subs side effects and line your army up right. endocrinologist and such.

 

[Mycophile]

Sub can counter alcohol euphoria. It is a fortunate find when it comes to opioid addiction.

Kratom has some good things about it, but you still wouldn't be able to keep things at a precise dose. And, the cost.

People can get monstrous withdrawals from kratom cessation.

Sub, what your doctor recommended, deserves its day in court (it's a saying that says at least give what the doc says a try).

You don't need to know precisely how it works. Heck, I don't. It's a complicated substance. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work. Literature supports suboxone for treatment of opioid and alcohol addiction.

Ok, but please respond to this;

I have heard some people say that they got HORRENDOUS Suboxone withdrawal and used KRATOM TO GET OFF OF SUBOXONE.

And i think that either way, i'm not sure that either kratom or suboxone is THAT much stronger than the other and i'd be switching from one opioid, partial agonist or not, to another, and that the only reason it helps with kratom wd, IF IT DOES, is because it's an opioid.

Yes, the other reason is the naloxone, but that effect in a blocker i can get from naltrexone while still breaking any opioid dependency, and yes, it would not help with cravings, but that's just the nature of the beast that only an opioid, partial or not, will help with opioid cravings, though there seems to be SOME evidence that naltrexone could help cravings, my doctor thinks it may not fully help with them in the same way as suboxone,but it doesn't seem worth.

Let me ask your honest opinion, and i'll number my questions throughout this thread;

1--do you really think that kratom is actually MORE DANGEROUS with more negative side effects than kratom, and do you REALLY think that switching from kratom to suboxone is not, AT BEST, just a SMALL step down which simply prolongs addiction to opioid in general based on brain receptors in much the same way that just tapering kratom would?

And PLEASE don't feel you have to agree with the doctor cause she's a doctor and you are mod and feel you have to, cause i am thinking that may be why you are doing it, and it's why it makes me more hesitant to take moderators' opinions as seriously as knowledgable posters, because they don't represent bluelight like you do and don't have to feel responsible if they say they don't trust a doctor's advice.

She's willing to prescribe REGULAR dose naltrexone, which is probably the option i'll take over suboxone as it sounds both safer and means i'm ACTUALLY getting off opioids and not just switching to another, which MIGHT not be any safer or less addictive, or at best just MODERATELY SO, but she is unwilling to try ultra low dose naltrexone, or at least she SAYS she'll think about it but i don't know.

It pisses me off cause i've read that ULDN is in phase 3 clinical trials and shows promise as being BETTER FOR DRUG CRAVINGS THAN HIGH DOSE NALTREXONE, and has off label use as an antidepressant, and yet, many people have found that they can take their opioid, whether kratom or heroin or whatever, and still get high, BUT also have their cravings reduced for their opioid, tolerance and side effects and addictive potential and wd effects of their opioid being reduced all at the same time.

That sounds win/win to me, as i could take ULDN and hopefully NOT give in to taking kratom, but if i do and it still works and potentiates it as some suggest, it would STILL help me not want to use kratom as much while reducing tolerance and side effects to kratom.

BUT...this hasn't been 100 percent proven, it's just been in phase 3 trials but there are TONS of personal anecdotes online to suggest ULDN MIGHT do all these things and is virtually a different drug from full dose naltrexone which sounds in inferior in every way EXCEPT that if you really want a 100 percent full blocker full dose is better so it has it's place which is why if she won't offer ULDN and my choice is full dose nal. or subs i think i'll deal with the kratom cravings and go with the safer option that leaves me NOT addicted to ANY kind of opioid, partial or not, and blocks me from drinking or even taking kratom, which yes, I do TEMPORARILY WANT TO BE BLOCKED FROM DRINKING OR TAKING KRATOM, BUT NOT FOREVER.

I just want to chemically induce TEMPORARY abstinence, starting with AT LEAST a month, and then trying for probably 3 and continuing from there, but i almost definitely WILL drink and use kratom again, but i want a long period of sobriety first and to introduce myself to the world of drug blockers and learn to use them to, again, be able to chemically induce either abstinence or moderation, but then not take them if i don't want to and then i can use kratom or booze, but i still want to be 100 percent clean for at least a month at first and then hopefully 3 months or more.

And let me ask you the following questions;

2--do you think that taking kratom and/or drinking while on suboxone is dangerous?

I need to know, because if the subs DON'T help so much with cravings that i mess up and do either i don't want to be in danger, and according to my doctor drinking and kratom aren't dangerous on naltrexone but would just block it, while i read that drinking on suboxone could be VERY dangerous, even lethal, and they aren't sure about kratom with subs, but that that also could be dangerous, and might potentiate eachother the suboxone might NOT block the kratom as kratom is atypical, so i think i should assume that that mix is also dangerous.

3--Do you really believe that being addicted to a medicinal dose of suboxone, and the WD effects of getting off of it, would be significantly lighter and easier to come off of than LOW dose kratom IF i could taper down?

Let me also stress; I TAKE KLONOPIN, and my doctor already made me more aware than i was of how much the klonopin has helped in the past with kratom wd and probably MILD alcohol withdrawal also, so i have that to combat many of the negative effects.

4--Do you know for sure that suboxone would actually block me from getting high on kratom?

Because some accounts of people on the internet say they HAVE combined suboxone with kratom and not only did the suboxone NOT block the kratom but THEY POTENTIATED EACHOTHER.

5--Could I not potentially end up continuing to take Kratom and be addicted to BOTH suboxone AND Kratom and be in a worse spot, or even switch to subs but have the WD when tapering off the subs not be at least close to as bad, if not equal or even worse than coming off of kratom?

I mean, I have gone through kratom WD about 30 times but the difference is I always used to use it like 3-4 days a week and the worst i ever had been was taking kratom for about 10 days in a row, and now i have taken it 2-3 times a day every day in a row for almost 3 months so yes, i know it will be much worse and probably last longer than it has before BUT I have 12 days off of work and nothing at all to do with klonopin to help me, and if somehow i mess up and take a little i can ease it up, but i'd rather cold turkey so it's over in 12 days. The longest kratom wd has ever lasted was 5 days total--3 days of acute wd and 2 days of PAWS....so I am assuming this time to be smart that maybe the acute WD could last twice as long and be 6 days with PAWS being twice as long at 4....a total of 10 days MAX, most likely less than that, and probably the kratom WD will be 2 if not 3 times worse than before, but i mean, it would probably just kind of be like having the flu for a week and then over right?

6--If i use suboxone, am i not, in a way, just prolonging my opioid addiction, and AT BEST moving to something that might be ONLY SLIGHTLY less addictive? ASIDE from helping with cravings and any partial blocking effects, is it not quite likely that coming off of suboxone could not be the same level of discomfort as coming off of a much lower level kratom addiction than the one i have, and is this not what most opioid users call ''piggy backing'', where i use suboxone to counter kratom wd and then the suboxone takes on the remainder of the kratom addiction and the previous kratom addiction adds to the sub addiction when it comes to getting off of that?

Many people addicted to worse opiates like heroin or oxy say that when they switch to kratom to get off of it then the kratom wd is horrendous because it's like they are coming off of BOTH the kratom and the previous opioid, but let me stress I HAVE NO PREVIOUS OPIOID ADDICTION, ONLY KRATOM, so that seems to be just switching and maybe making things worse.

7--And suboxone can possibly cause respiratory depression if you take too much, so how is it safer than kratom?!!

8--In reality, what is the difference between my switching to suboxone rather than tapering kratom as far as help with the WD symptoms?

Yes, i know it MIGHT be a partial blocker, but again, accounts say getting high on kratom and even drunk on suboxone MIGHT be possible but just dangerous, and sure, it would help with cravings, but it just seems a bad idea AND i would be tempted to try to take more subs to get high which i don't want to do and I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT HIGH DOSE SUBS BEING ABUSED IS WORSE THAN TAKING AS MUCH KRATOM AS YOU WANT. Subxone can cause respiratory depression if abused but kratom can't.

I can't wrap my head around the fact that she admitted she was afraid to give me ultra low dose naltrexone because she knows i might eventually take it with kratom because i have heard that it can reduce side effects and wd from kratom while simultaneously reducing cravings for it BUT SHE IS WILLING TO PRESCRIBE A DRUG WHICH CAN BE ABUSED ON ITS OWN, UNLIKE ULDN, AND WHICH ALSO CAN POSSIBLY BE COMBINED WITH KRATOM AND MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT ALSO POTENTIATE IT BUT ALSO BE VERY DANGEROUS.

She is just afraid to go outside of protocal and prescribe microdoses OF THE SAME DRUG, naltrexone, that she is willing to prescribe in higher doses, but will recommend a drug that is actually some people's drug of choice in suboxone.


So finally...

9--Considering all this, DO YOU THINK I AM BETTER OFF GOING WITH REGULAR/HIGH DOSE NALTREXONE TO ACHIEVE TEMPORARY SOBRIETY, EVEN IF MAYBE IT DOESN'T END UP WORKING AS WELL FOR CRAVINGS AS SUBOXONE, RATHER THAN TAKING SUBOXONE?

I know i can get through kratom WD in 12 days with klonopin and lots of sleep, and then i will not be addicted to ANY opioid, partial or otherwise, then take naltrexone to block me from drinking or taking kratom for as long as i want, and then if i want to use kratom or drink again i can go a few days without the nalterexone, use kratom or drink, then wait a few more days to be 100 percent sure i am not dependent on kratom, and then go right back to naltrexone that way and have had a period of fun and go back to chemically induced absitence.

It unforunately might not help as well with the cravings for everything as suboxone, but that's only cause suboxone is itself a partial opioid, and i would actually be sober and not addicted to any kind of opioid.

The hypocrisy in medicine ASTOUNDS ME, that they are all for a chemical like suboxone, which while it CAN be safe, WHEN ABUSED is FAR more dangerous than Kratom, and they are also willing to prescribe HIGH dose naltrexone, but they are terrified of how bad kratom must be and will not prescribe microdoses that are hundreds to THOUSANDS of times weaker of the same drug they are pushing, naltrexone, cause those doses aren't yet fully approved.

I bet you ANY DAY OF THE WEAK that both kratom and ultra low dose naltrexone are safer across the board than kratom and full-high dose naltrexone.

 

[RecklessWOT]

I know everyone's different so take what I say with a grain of salt. I am not you and I have no right to judge what you're going through based off my own personal experience, the same way as I know many people have had it WAY worse off than me and I shouldn't complain much. But based on my experiences, it doesn't sound like you really have that much of a problem.

Sure it seems like you have an addictive personality, but you're not doing a half gram of dope and drinking a liter of vodka every night, you're having a bottle of wine a few times a week and doing some Kratom which isn't shit (though I know yes it is addictive, in the scheme of things it's really not bad). I might get some flak for this on a HR forum, but realistically speaking, as hard as it sounds, dude you just need some will power at this point. You're playing around with some lighteweight stuff, you should be grateful you're not into some hard drugs.
I don't think a lot of social workers and sponsors and the like realize how much damage they can do by putting ideas in your head. You sound like a reasonable person who clearly needs to change your path but it's not like you're off the deep end here. You absolutely don't fucking need bupe, that's like trying to make a mosuito shoo with a shotgun. That's gonna mess you up wayyy worse than anything you're playing with right now. They'll have you feeling like some victim or a "hopeless addict who needs help", when realistically you just need to cut back on the wine and taper off the Kratom. It's not a walk in the park by any means, but dude this isn't some crisis here, don't let them hype you up. You're fine, just cut back. Make yourself a promise, set a goal; be diligent and stick to it , you'll be fine. Nothing in life is easy especially when dealing with addiction, but you're lucky here you have the chance to knock it off semi-easily before it actually gets bad.

TL;DR - don't let that idiot talk you into getting on Bupe, it will ruin your life 10 times worse.

 

[Mycophile]

I would go for it. How many people know a decent percentage of the drug using population that get wrecked on alcohol taking subs? Not many if any. I think you may have a very bright Dr. Check into subs side effects and line your army up right. endocrinologist and such.

I don't know, i am VERY skeptical.

Please read my post below and respond if you'd be willing.

I know it's very long, but i have many reasons for doubting this, and i am not sure i made clear that i have a choice between regular-high dose naltrexone and suboxone, and i think that safety wise and in terms of no longer having any kind of opioid dependency, partial or not, is the way to go.

I can't understand why she won't try ultra low dose naltrexone which from what i have read is very promising and may be better than full dose in a number of ways, but it's not approved.

And understand that i have read accounts suggesting that suboxone might only NOT block kratom but MIGHT potentiate it and yet could also be a dangerous combo if the suboxone doesn't fully work for my cravings and i combine them and then i'd have TWO addictions.

I want to know, how is switching from such a light opioid like kratom to suboxone, not AT BEST only a slight improvement, or at worst, going from a weak opioid to one that is equally strong or maybe stronger ?

I have read many accounts of people using kratom to help with suboxone withdrawal, and according to many people trying to get off heroin or hard opioids suboxone is often a step DOWN...meaning WORSE, on their ladder to sobriety from Kratom.

I remember one person here saying that they went like this from heroin to sobriety; heroin--methadone--suboxone---kratom--sobriety.

Is Kratom REALLY DRAMTICALLY closer to being opioid free, especially IF I COULD TAPER TO LOWER DOSES, than taking suboxone?

Is it not piggy backing and from one opioid to another, and not kind of like trying to kill an ant with a shotgun to use suboxone to get off kratom?

Subs are for HARD opiates, not kratom in my experience.

I could try to take high dose sub for a high or combine it with kratom and both would be bad.

My reasons for wanting either naltrexone or subs are BOTH for drinking and kratom, and also honestly dexadrine, though i am not sure either works for that, but if not i can be ok as i don't usually use a lot of dex if i am also not doing kratom or drinking or anything else.

It seems like prolonging a problem at the expense of making wd easier and relieving cravings, but as i mentioned, i have 12 days off for christmas and i take klonopin which will help with some of the kratom and alcohol wd, and i can just sleep for days and after those 12 days are up i am sure i will not have any more kratom addiction in terms of ACUTE effects as it has never taken me more than 5 days, so even though my dependency is WAY worse now, i am guessing it's more the intensity that will be worse than it taking that much longer, though if it does take longer, which it probably will, i dont see it NOT being over in 12 days when in the past it was over in 5....and if it takes longer than i taper...or not EXACTLY taper....but more like, skip as many days in a row as i can, then if i break i take as low a dose as i can to feel comfortable etc....till EVENTUALLY i am over kratom wd.

I don't see myself as needing subs for Kratom or alcohol wd when i have klonopin and 12 days off, and i could just be off kratom and then start taking naltrexone and so long as i swallow the pills, or even take a shot which keeps me sober for a month, i can't drink or take kratom for as long as i decide to continue treatment, and remain NOT dependent on ANY KIND OF OPIOID.

Going to subs seems to just prolong addiction to something probably not THAT much better or weaker, if weaker at all, than kratom and yeah, it will help with cravings, but that's cause it's a freaking opioid, partial or not, and that just seems to defeat the purpose.

I don't know man, let me know what you think, cause i know the list of side effects from suboxone is also MUCH worse than kratom any day.

 

[Mycophile]

I know everyone's different so take what I say with a grain of salt. I am not you and I have no right to judge what you're going through based off my own personal experience, the same way as I know many people have had it WAY worse off than me and I shouldn't complain much. But based on my experiences, it doesn't sound like you really have that much of a problem.

Sure it seems like you have an addictive personality, but you're not doing a half gram of dope and drinking a liter of vodka every night, you're having a bottle of wine a few times a week and doing some Kratom which isn't shit (though I know yes it is addictive, in the scheme of things it's really not bad). I might get some flak for this on a HR forum, but realistically speaking, as hard as it sounds, dude you just need some will power at this point. You're playing around with some lighteweight stuff, you should be grateful you're not into some hard drugs.
I don't think a lot of social workers and sponsors and the like realize how much damage they can do by putting ideas in your head. You sound like a reasonable person who clearly needs to change your path but it's not like you're off the deep end here. You absolutely don't fucking need bupe, that's like trying to make a mosuito shoo with a shotgun. That's gonna mess you up wayyy worse than anything you're playing with right now. They'll have you feeling like some victim or a "hopeless addict who needs help", when realistically you just need to cut back on the wine and taper off the Kratom. It's not a walk in the park by any means, but dude this isn't some crisis here, don't let them hype you up. You're fine, just cut back. Make yourself a promise, set a goal; be diligent and stick to it , you'll be fine. Nothing in life is easy especially when dealing with addiction, but you're lucky here you have the chance to knock it off semi-easily before it actually gets bad.

TL;DR - don't let that idiot talk you into getting on Bupe, it will ruin your life 10 times worse.

Dude, THANK YOU, i totally agree.

I mean, my problems aren't light weight in comparison to someone who only uses weed, as i am pretty bad as an alcoholic but not SUPER bad, like, I drink about 5 nights a week, so that's bad, a bottle of wine 4-5 nights a week, but it ain't like drinking a bottle of whisky a day, i don't wake up and drink etc.

As for Kratom, i do take a lot, in terms of 2-3 doses a day for the past 3 months, before which i was not dependent, and dosing high at about 12 grams a dose, so basically, 24-36 grams a day for 3 months, BUT, with NO prior opiate problems, and 20-40mgs of dexadrine a day which back in the summer gave me 11 days of wd getting off of before i felt 100 percent, but i have 12 days off and can do it again.

I have 12 days off work and klonopin to help and then i'll be over ACTUE wds, but i am expecting some pretty bad depression, especially because i ALREADY have depression and anxiety and ocd, when you combine not being able to drink, take kratom or dexardrine, which i am used to on a daily basis, so it'll suck, but the only reason subs would make it not suck is because you are still on a freakin opioid, partial or not, it still is one and is probably worse IMO than low dose kratom.

I think i will probably just get her to give me some naltrexone pills and then i can take them and induce chemical abstinence when i want and then if i want to use kratom or drink i stop naltrexone for a few days, use kratom or drink, then wait a few days without either to be sure i am not dependent on kratom before i start again, and go back to naltrexone.

I became very interested in naltrexone cause i have problems with self control and whether you agree or not, it's not always possible let alone easy to FORCE yourself to abstain, so i like the idea of swallowing a pill that will stop me if i don't want to be able to take something, and then stop taking it if i want to.

What pisses me off is she won't prescribe ultra low dose naltrexone but only high dose nal. as i have read that ULDN is different and helps MORE with cravings than high dose, and that it IS possible to take kratom or any opioid and get not only full effects but have it being potentiated by the ULDN BUT with it also reducing tolerance, reducing WD and side effects and reducing cravings and working as a mood booster.

So i want ULDN as opposed to full dose naltrexone or suboxone cause it decreases cravings like both but is NOT an addictive drug, and yet while it reduces cravings, for someone like me who is NOT quitting kratom or booze forever, many people have said that unlike full dose naltrexone they are not only able to get high on kratom while on naltrexone but have it potentiate it but reduce the wd and cravings and side effects.

Problem is THIS DOCTOR KNOWS I WANT TO COMBINE ULDN WITH KRATOM SO THAT, COMBINED WITH ULDN NOT BEING FULLY MEDICINALLY APPROVED LIKE HIGH DOSE, MAKES HER NOT WANT TO GIVE ME MIRCODOSES OF THE SAME DAMN DRUG SHE IS ALREADY WILLING TO PRESCRIBE.

I read that heroin and morphine and yes, kratom addicts, have combined ULDN with their opioid and cut their tolerance back to the doses they had when they were opiate naive, that they had 75 percent diminished side effects and wd effects greatly lessend and lower cravings.

BUT SHE WON'T PRESCRIBE A LOWER DOSE OF WHAT SHE IS ALREADY WILLING TO PRESCRIBE BECAUSE IT'S NOT MEDICALLY AS WELL STUDIED AND BECAUSE SHE IS AFRAID I'LL COMBINE ULDN WITH KRATOM, WHEREAS SHE'LL PRESCRIBE SUBOXONE WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT EVEN BLOCK KRATOM EITHER AND COULD BE VERY DANGEROUS TO COMBINE WITH IT!!

I don't agree with you on your light stance that it is necessarily going to be so easy for me to ''cut down'', which is why i became interested in naltrexone, at any dose, in the first place.

I am too out of control to see myself moderating or abstaining without chemical aid, but i think i will probably just get the naltrexone and start taking it to block me from drinking or using kratom after i tough out the wds for about a week or more.

Then if i want to use kratom or drink i stop taking it, and yeah, maybe it won't help with the wds, but i think it would probably be pretty cool to have something i can use to force myself to abstain and then if i want to use again i can pretty easily go back to using or drinking.

So i think that is better, and i agree, this is like shooting an ant with a shotgun.

This doctor just doesn't understand how light kratom is.

Let me ask you a question--what do you think is the lighter opioid that is the physical safer and with the lighter wd symptoms, kratom or suboxone?

Do you think it would be harder for you to get off suboxone or kratom?

Don't you think going from kratom to subs is going a step IN THE WRONG DIRECTION, rather than the right one?

I told the doctor ''i think kratom is the lightest opioid you can use'' and she asked ''how could it be lighter than kratom since suboxone is only a partial opioid''?

How would you answer that question, and is kratom also a partial opioid like suboxone or is a full one?

It also bugs me cause when i told the doctor i was worried about then later coming off suboxone she kind of laughed and said ''it's nowhere NEAR as bad as coming off of kratom, dexadrine and alcohol all at once'', but is she REALLY right?

Cause I think she's wrong.

I won't have serious alcohol wd, ESPECIALLY cause i take klonopin, which also helps with the kratom wd, and the dexadrine yeah, that can suck for a week of fatigue and depression, and it's gonna be a pretty sucky 7-12 days of basically sleeping, but i think after that i just take the naltrexone to induce sobriety as long as i want, suck it up and deal with the cravings, and then if i want to use or drink again i go off the naltrexone.

I'm upset that this doctor sees me as a junkie when i know damn well i am not, and she GASPED when i told her i had used kratom every day for the past 3 months. I think the ignorance is astounding. She didn't even know kratom was legal where i live for christ's sakes.

At this point, it is almost a point of pride for me to prove to both this doctor and myself that even despite being way more addicted to kratom in the past, that all i need is a weak of abstinence and it will suck but i'll be fine. Then i won't be rude, but i'll tell her that she was suggesting something stronger than what i need, and probably tell her the wd wasn't that bad, even if it ends up being worse than i think, i know i'll just be able to do it by sleeping for a week and tell her she is over estimating how bad kratom is. The medical world needs to understand that kratom is not a dangerous narcotic, and whether i am using it or not, drinking or not, I'll ALWASY defend kratom.

It's particularly cause it helps me w/ depression and anxiety that i want to continue to be able to use it if i want or stop if i want, hence my interest in ULDN to help both induce moderation but yet simulatenously be possible to take with it and help with wd, side effects, tolerance and cravings, essentially turning kratom into a super drug through the combo...IF IT WORKS that is...but she's too afraid of that option cause it's ''not approved''....but will give me a narcotic like bupe because it is....it's nuts and messed up.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Good grief... Why don't you just TRY working with your doctor, then if it doesn't work out then do something else. Otherwise you're gonna be 60 years old on here creating thread after thread questioning everything but still not have any answers.

 

[Mycophile]

Lke giving someone dependent on a 6-pack a day a enormous benzo dose for the wd's.

Mycophile my experience with dr's is they don' t prescribe what you want or need. Excluding the one who broke any textbook rule, his Aristoteles ode and had no integrity. That one would write what I'd ask. Too bad he missed a brain.

But imo tapering the Kratom is the way to go YMMV. Leaving the Bupe out would be a benefit in the longterm.

The Ethanol is harder, again for me personally. So tapering and stopping that first would be my preferable way. No clue how to do that atm but with aid of Kratom it seems easy. Switch to and taper the Kratom No idea about your usage but ime it had a ceeling so I was on 2,5/ 3.5 grams dossises a few times a day (5/ 7 ?)
You could adjust your dex-Amfetamin a bit downward's (1/2 to 2/3 of the normal) to avoid excessive stim stress during wd's.

You on any other med's? Current Alcohol intake/ tolerance?

I take klonopin and lexapro, and i know the klonopin helps with kratom wd and alcohol wd.

I know i am not badly addicted to alcohol and any wd i'd experience, ESPECIALLY while on klonopin, would just be depression and cravings.

I'm not gonna taper anything.

I have 12 days off work and that's why i chose this period to go through wd and stop as long as possible.

I'm planning on starting on christmas, and then just no kratom, dex or alcohol, then ask her for some naltrexone, and when the acute wd from kratom is over i can take naltrexone to block me from taking kratom or booze...though i don't think it works for dex but i'll be ok with that......and then as long as i want to abstain i will take it and if i want to use or drink again i'll stop and then go back to it.

I want to learn the ropes with it so i can chemically induce absitnence if i want or if i dont' then stop, but i am pissed cause from what i've read ultra low dose naltrexone seems vastly superior in this area but is still not fully medically accepted, and despite it being prescribed it is only done so rarely as it is in phase 3 trials still, so she won't prescribe a microdose of the same damn drug she'll prescribe full dose of, and she'll prescribe bupe, but no, not a microdose of naltrexone....it's really infuriating, and she's nice but STILL making me feel like a junkie cause she doesn't understand how light kratom is.

So the WD from all 3 at once will suck but i think it will just feel like i have the flu for like a week and then i'll have the cravings but be stopped from indulging for as long as i choose to take naltrexone and just deal with the cravings like any person, with will power and some physical exercise as often as possible which always helps.

If somehow i can't get myself to 100 percent cold turkey off kratom and/or dex i'll take the lowest doses possible, but not an actual taper...just skip as many days in a row as i can of everything including drinking, then if i give in take the lowest amount possible for the discomfort.....tough it out another day or 2...etc....till EVENTUALLY i'd still be off of both kratom and dex.

I prefer it being over sooner, especially with 12 days off and nothing to do, and seeing if i can do it, rather than prolonging it...so then if i fuck up it's just an ''as needed taper'' only on the days i can't completely abstain, but i see myself making it all 12 days without anything, or at least long enough without kratom to get on the naltrexone and then have forced abstainence for as long as i want.

I certainly do NOT want to quit kratom or drinking forever, probably not dex either, but i want a lot more control, and if naltrexone works well than it seems great to have something that can leave will power out of the equation and chemically induce abstinence.

However, if it DOESN'T help with the cravings but only blocks me from drinking and getting high, which can be the case at times, then that will suck when i have intense cravigns, but so what i'll deal with it and if i want to that badly my doc said i can just stop the naltrexone for a few days and get full effects from kratom or alcohol, then i'd have to abstain again from kratom and naltrexone for just a few more days till i was sure i was not dependent on kratom...as you can't start naltrexone while dependent, and then get back on it.

I would bet it will be something i'll do a lot and i'll learn the ropes for how long i need to abstain from naltrexone to get effects from kratom and alcohol, and then how long i'll have to abstain from kratom to use naltrexone again.

The only danger it seems is if i go off naltrexone to use kratom and then i think i am over the kratom wd or it's out of my system and it's not and i take naltrexone and go into precipitated wd which i know would be absolutely horrible, though whether or not it's actually TRULY PHYSICALLY DANGEROUS, especially seeing as i have klonopin to help me, i don't know, but i bet its' not that dangerous, would just feel bad, and i have a pretty good sense of when i am over kratom wd as i have gotten over it many times and know the time frame and can probably figure out when it's safe to take naltrexone again and avoid them crossing over and causing preciptated wd i think.

That seems the way to go to me considering she refuses what sounds like a very logical and probably the best option to me in ultra low dose naltrexone.

 

[Mycophile]

Good grief... Why don't you just TRY working with your doctor, then if it doesn't work out then do something else. Otherwise you're gonna be 60 years old on here creating thread after thread questioning everything but still not have any answers.

Um...I'm already working with my doctor dude. I'm trying to find info about suboxone, a drug many here are familar with but i'm not, to help me make a decision between that and naltrexone, and it's helping, and you are kind of being an asshole.

I'm asking a community who actually knows more about this stuff than this doctor the kinds of questions that this forum is intended for.

Yeah, i write endless posts, i know and i need to work on not being so long winded, but i've been working with her for 2 weeks and she is suggesting i use a drug, suboxone/bupe, which seems like a bad idea to me, and i wanted users opinions.

So frankly dude, fuck you.

I am looking for the kind of information that people on here who have used subs, unlike me, have, and trying to find out more.

You really think i shouldn't be asking these questions?

Cause i think you are wrong as the very intelligent responses have already helped me confirm my decision and i think will help me avoid getting into another drug that could have negative side effects in suboxone.

Do you NOT see how you are being an asshole?

 

[Mycophile]

I just have to work on typing less because that's why people don't want to read my shit, but i have serious problems with being long winded, and when i'm on dex or any drugs it gets worse.

Otherwise, i'm asking the kind of reasonable questions this forum is made for; entirely based in harm reduction, drugs related to aiding with addictions while in treatment with both a doctor and social worker etc...it's like the number one kind of thread you'd want to show someone to prove that this forum isn't just for people talking about how to get high lol.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Don't over-think your situation. I have no idea what your doctor is trying to achieve lmfao, but subs should get you plenty high enjoy.

Whatever the outcome of this "treatment," it's not like you'll be on heroin by the end of it. Worst case scenario you just start using kratom all over again.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

OP the main question I would ask is do you want to quit the opiates and alcohol?

If you want to quit for yourself then you should be able to manage a taper. But you need to be sure you want to quit, don't expect some kind of magic bullet to do it for you. If you don't truly wanna quit then even if you manage to stop taking kratom and booze in the short-term, you will relapse quickly anyway.

But if you do want to quit then set out a taper plan and stick to it. Imo you really don't need subs for such a mild habit. Kratom is much easier to taper from than bupe. And your clonazepam script will cover your alcohol withdrawal. So you should be set with what you have, no need to start out on a much stronger opioid.

That's my opinion anyway. I tapered from an oxy habit with no help from bupe, but if someone else thought they needed bupe to get off oxy I wouldn't advise against it, oxy is a harsh mistress. But if someone is only taking kratom I honestly think jumping to bupe is only climbing up the opioid ladder and will make things much harder in the long-term.

To clarify about withdrawal, the people who say it's easy are often those who use it for a week to taper off a stronger opioid like H or oxy and therefore never actually become dependent on it. If you take bupe as maintenance and build dependence on it, withdrawals are likely to be rough, certainly rougher than kratom.

 

[xivixive]

i think it depends if you are miserable on the kratom or not.

i was addicted to full-agonist opiates for over 10 years. PST, heroin, oxy, dilaudid, opana, all of em. i tried suboxone for 3 months then quit and went back to opiates because i couldn't stand never feeling a buzz. for that reason i upped the drinking while on subs and went from 6 beers a day to 20+, and kept up the drinking at that level when i started using opiates again.

only got clean cause i went to jail and ended up on probation, primarily because of alcohol.

when i tried kratom it was about a year ago and after 6 months totally sober. it worked well for about 2 months at giving me the opiate buzz i still craved.

now i'm up to 70+ grams a day, and i too am considering going on subs. the kratom is too much money, and for me the withdrawal is just as bad - if not worse! - as PST or dope or any other opiate. kratom has stopped having any benefit. it is pretty miserable at this level. more miserable then when i was only using subs. i used to say 'im not high, just not sick' on opiates, but at least you got that little bit of satisfaction.. not at all with kratom.

but this is just me, and i'm simply offering a viewpoint i havent read yet in this thread.

should you switch? i tend to think not, but if the kratom is actually making you miserable, maybe. if it is not making you miserable, and you just "feel like a break" i tend to agree that bupe isn't going to help things in the long run. if i go back on subs, probation will send me back to drug counseling, and i dont need/care for the weekly speech, and i think itll kill the shot at being let off early...

wish i just stayed sober.... but fuck, thats pretty miserable too!

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Problem is when you do get sober off opiates there is a flat and grey period of life where you can't necessarily enjoy or be excited by things. Subs help with that feeling, but whenever I am clean trust me I don't feel good. I feel accomplished, but the cravings sometimes are ridiculous and ahedonia--inability to enjoy things is what makes me want to relapse. People only talk about physical withdrawals or worry about those, but sometimes the PAWs are worse by some means. God damn dude. Kratom might be less severe in this regard.