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Harm Reduction Mitragyna speciosa (kratom)

I love the numb tongue feeling after drinking the tea quickly. It's reminiscent of the numbing effects of cocaine imo.
everybody says it's nasty but it's a great feeling just knowing the effects will kick in innabout 15 minutes. Personally I love that taste.
Gotta get another order in soon. Fuckin' pills aint gettin it... again.
Been getting the same super green maeng da from same vendor (couple/three years now) and it is the bees knees. ;)
Been without for a month or two and it's callin my name... don't worry sugar... imma see ya agin real soon, ya here?
<3
My guess about chronic pain patients and kratom not working is that the strong dose of opioids they are on is filling all the opioid binding sites so taking kratom either produces no effects or acting as a partial agonist could theoretically compete for binding, and perhaps knock some of the other opioid off the receptors. Both of those scenarios lead to a person not receiving good effects from kratom while on high dose opioids.
I feel there may be something to this.
Not a scientist but from experience.
 
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Thanks for sharing this! Cannot wait to read it.

I love the fermented powder!

Sorry to those I have not responded to. I haven't had much time for leisure or BL lately.
at first a biotic or symbiotic fermentation was what I thought. But this seems more along the line of tobacco or weed curing. which involves fermenting.

But not like in a Kombucha way.
 
Poppy tea can be as strong as you want to make it, kratom has a ceiling.
I have been addicted to poppy tea for a couple of years (and after a while I just ate the pods) and tried to go cold turkey with it. That was not a lot of fun, especially because it goes on and on and you will not be able to sleep easily. Restless legs for two weeks. That drove me crazy. So I then I switched to kratom, which gives a bit of energy and stopped my nicotine intake (which makes withdrawals worse, esp restless legs). After building down from 50gr a day to 10 gram while picking up weightlifting, I could quit the kratom quite easily.
Still it was a fun time, poppy tea is very dreamy, although I was often afraid I would kill myself on it. So I have found kratom very useful, even if it is addicting itself.
 
So I chose to quit using cannabis because I have applied to medical school(s) and will be subject to drug screening if offered admission.

I know this is a kratom thread and this is not a drug test question. I just wanna say, holy shit after using cannabis in large amounts daily for years, quitting is difficult. I'm about 20 days clean. Kratom is certainly not the same without cannabis, not are other opioids. Idk why I'm posting this... just looking for support or something.

Having been through opioid (and opiate) withdrawal too many times to count, I know cannabis cessation doesnt hold a candle to opioid cessation on many levels. It is still a bitch to give up! I think the worst part is missing its (cannabis) potentiating effect on kratom.

I love that this thread is still going!🤘🤘✌✌
 
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I think this is a part of it, but things get a little more interesting.

The first time I did kratom I was much more opiate naive, only having done codeine, DHC, and morphine a handful of times and never having tried oxy. I was using codeine here and there at the time but nothing stronger. The kratom hit me way harder back then.

Now even though my tolerance is low enough to enjoy codeine again, I still have that level of opiate perma-tolerance you get from my previous high dose use, so certain things will never feel as good for me again.

However, here is the one complicating factor in all of this. I first tried kratom when it was UK legal and got it from a UK based site. When I used it first time, me and my dad both took about 5 grams or so. My dad is into trying anything natural since he's a bit of a hippie, and most importantly he does not touch pharmas of any kind. Anyway me and him both got a proper strong high from that first kratom dose, and this was just regular kratom no extracts or "enhanced" anything.

Use after this was obviously never as strong as the first time, but it was still a much more notable effect.

Since the PSA passed back in 2016 I've been getting my kratom from abroad since that piece of legislation shut down all the UK vendors. So my sources have changed.

Now my new guys have very positive reviews, universally five stars, so they should be good. However since I found it to be weak I offered some to my dad to see what he thought. He also told me this stuff is much weaker and didn't give him anything near what he expected.

My experience could easily be explained by previous opiate use. Not my dad though. He hasn't used any other opis since those earlier kratom experiences pre-2016.

So either the kratom I'm getting now is a bit shit, or the kratom I got before was exceptionally good or maybe was actually "enhanced" with something or contained some sort of potent extract to set it apart from the competition. Who knows?

But again my current kratom source gets consistent five star reviews and what makes it even weirder is I have two mates who use kratom from there all the time and they tell me it's good stuff - that's why I started buying from them to begin with.

I might have to find yet another source to compare, but basically it comes down to this:

Me and my dad's first kratom experience was with that UK vendor which had strong stuff, I was using codeine pretty regularly at the time (but nothing stronger), my dad is basically opiate naive, we both got very strong legit narcotic level highs.

My mates only got into kratom after the ban so used this same source I use now. They've never had the strong stuff I used before. Without that frame of reference they tell me the kratom I am getting now is good shit.

All this leads me to believe that the kratom I used to get actually was just stronger. If it was down to my tolerance alone my dad would still get blasted off the stuff I get now.


If it wasn't against the rules I'd say let's swap! But alas... cannot break the rules.
 
Gleroy - you farm your own pods? I did this for a while, ornamental purposes only of course! 😁
Yes, I farmed my own pods back then. I also used public parks to grow them, build sites, other peoples gardens. Usually people let them grow, harvested them only partially. I kept a map of them. Getting up at 3 o'clock to tend my plots. Guess you can call it guerilla farming😋 it was a fun time, but I am happy it is behind me now.
Some places still thrive with poppies I cared for.
 
So I chose to quit using cannabis because I have applied to medical school(s) and will be subject to drug screening if offered admission.

I know this is a kratom thread and this is not a drug test question. I just wanna say, holy shit after using cannabis in large amounts daily for years, quitting is difficult. I'm about 20 days clean. Kratom is certainly not the same without cannabis, not are other opioids. Idk why I'm posting this... just looking for support or something.

Having been through opioid (and opiate) withdrawal too many times to count, I know cannabis cessation doesnt hold a candle to opioid cessation on many levels. It is still a bitch to give up! I think the worst part is missing its (cannabis) potentiating effect on kratom.

I love that this thread is still going!🤘🤘✌✌

I am very, very proud of you! 👍💎

WAY good work for applying to medical school!
We need people like you being doctors!
You have experience already and know about drug withdrawal.
Most doctors do not seem to know about withdrawal at all!
We need you!
Let us know if you get accepted! I am hoping and praying you do!!

I went on a year long binge of trying all kinds of different delightful medical cannabis strains for my chronic pain and I also went through some withdrawal.
It cleared up quickly though. Basically 4-5 days of depression, headaches, just not feeling good and then the missing smoking it part.
Within a month I replaced that with doing other activities and that worked.
Hang in there! You will feel better soon.

I just wanted to give you some support! ❤️💋😁🥂

Good thread! I am just reading it now. I need to research Kratom just in case I need it for emergencies.
Carry on.
 
I am very, very proud of you! 👍💎

WAY good work for applying to medical school!
We need people like you being doctors!
You have experience already and know about drug withdrawal.
Most doctors do not seem to know about withdrawal at all!
We need you!
Let us know if you get accepted! I am hoping and praying you do!!

I went on a year long binge of trying all kinds of different delightful medical cannabis strains for my chronic pain and I also went through some withdrawal.
It cleared up quickly though. Basically 4-5 days of depression, headaches, just not feeling good and then the missing smoking it part.
Within a month I replaced that with doing other activities and that worked.
Hang in there! You will feel better soon.

I just wanted to give you some support! ❤💋😁🥂

Good thread! I am just reading it now. I need to research Kratom just in case I need it for emergencies.
Carry on.

Painful One, that may be the most kind and thoughtful comment I have ever received on BL. Thank you so very much for the support, thoughts, and well wishes.

I agree that there seems to be a dearth of providers with appreciable knowledge on substance use. When I worked in some hospitals I was astonished at how little the psychiatrists knew about psychopharmacology of anything other than what they prescribed, and what's more upsetting is that they tended to believe the FDA hype around whatever was popular at the time, instead of doing their own research.

I've often said that BL is years ahead of the medical community. I remember when one of the psych's announced to the team that gabapentin was now being abused and thinking to myself no shit dude, BL'ers have been discussing that for 15+ years lol.

Going strong at 20+ days without cannabis. It has been such a part of my identity since I was a teenager. I'm a HUGE deadhead. Huge psychedelic everything fan! I love the lifestyle. Love the music. Giving up cannabis is more than simple withdrawl for me, if that makes any sense. But I know that some things must be done.

Also, I have what I suspect to be ulcerative colitis and suffer with GI distress and diarrhea frequently. Cannabis and opioids really are the only functional treatments I have found, making letting cannabis go that much more difficult. Its like my illness amplifies exponentially, plus the discontinuation effect.

Thanks again Painful One. I responded to your post about MS Contin and kratom in another thread. Be well my friend!

Dammit... I took too much adderall and cant sleep! Fuckin 3am... 🤪😪🤣🤘
 
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I was a long time pothead (5 years of smoking multiple times daily). It was a part of my identity as well. My social circle at the time all smoked and it was a way to connect and network with newer people.

For some reason I just randomly decided to stop buying it out of nowhere. Once I dabbled in opioids, both alcohol and weed permanently lost their thrilling buzz for whatever odd reason. I didn't even notice the marijuana was gone--no negative or positive side effects of cessation. Some people experience cannabis withdrawal while others do not whatsoever. Now adderall.. that one is a toughie for me to quit ;) I definitely don't want to in the near future for better and for worse.

However, I think that you'll realize how weed does not even come close to consuming your life/lifestyle as opiates do. You'll become adjusted to the non-weed life shortly push through :) I don't consider cannabis to be a real "drug," but I can see why some do. It does have viable medical uses, and if you're dependent on weed for health effects those benefits will be the most daunting to figure out how to replace. All my friends grew up and stopped smoking so it was a relatively easy decision to make. It had no place in my life anymore. I have yet to actually quit any substance that still benefits my life. The psychological aspect of addiction has to be absent for me personally. It's soooooo hard if not almost impossible personally to quit something that still feels incredible.. I assume you're still dosing kratom? In some ways I feel like kratom and marijuana effects are more similar than people realize! The kratom will definitely help you out with this one. I assume you have to stop from drug tests? So ridiculous that people can binge on meth or heroin and pass a drug test a couple of days later while weed stays in your system for an entire month in some cases. The drug test system also benefits alcoholism which can be one of the most physically taxing/dysfunctional addictions on earth. Ridiculous lollll it just makes me grouchy how marijuana is the least offensive substance on the planet and it is also in some areas of the US one of the most revered. God forbid someone eats too many cheetos and goes on a netflix bender.
 
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I've quit cannabis before as well and I agree completely that it isn't as devastating/consuming on the lifestyle as opioid dependency and cessation. If the day comes that I have to quit kratom, I'll be fucked without an opioid replacement. That I know for sure. I haven't gone a day without it since sometime in 2015, like not one day. It's more like my illness is amplified and I just don't want to not have cannabis lol, choices...

I came across the "functional addict" thread and chuckled to myself as my life seems to be a balancing act of "functional dependency" to many substances, just not ones from the street anymore (no judgment to those who choose to do so).

I would disagree though on cannabis not being a real drug. I can get a little technical sometimes, but cannabis certainly qualifies as a drug, by definition. It however clearly is not capable of producing the same type or level of dependency issues as some other substances.

100% agree on the cannabis drug test issues. I just had this argument with my mother, about alcohol being almost encouraged to be abused. I am a serious alcoholic and haven't had any in a couple years now. The Wild Turkey 101 in the back of the fridge keeps sounding good in a "fuck it" sorta way.

Way back, when I abused heroin and methadone daily, I too ceased cannabis use as it simply seemed to be a waste of precious financial resources that were all used on other things...

With kratom I find the cannabis synergy really nice. I always found it nice with opioids back then too, but if they were strong enough without cannabis, then it wasnt necessary.
 
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I've quit cannabis before as well and I agree completely that it isn't as devastating/consuming on the lifestyle as opioid dependency and cessation. If the day comes that I have to quit kratom, I'll be fucked without an opioid replacement. That I know for sure. I haven't gone a day without it since sometime in 2015, like not one day. It's more like my illness is amplified and I just don't want to not have cannabis lol, choices...

I came across the "functional addict" thread and chuckled to myself as my life seems to be a balancing act of "functional dependency" to many substances, just not ones from the street anymore (no judgment to those who choose to do so).

I would disagree though on cannabis not being a real drug. I can get a little technical sometimes, but cannabis certainly qualifies as a drug, by definition. It however clearly is not capable of producing the same type or level of dependency issues as some other substances.

100% agree on the cannabis drug test issues. I just had this argument with my mother, about alcohol being almost encouraged to be abused. I am a serious alcoholic and haven't had any in a couple years now. The Wild Turkey 101 in the back of the fridge keeps sounding good in a "fuck it" sorta way.

Way back, when I abused heroin and methadone daily, I too ceased cannabis use as it simply seemed to be a waste of precious financial resources that were all used on other things...

With kratom I find the cannabis synergy really nice. I always found it nice with opioids back then too, but if they were strong enough without cannabis, then it wasnt necessary.

Yeah I wouldn't quit the kratom (especially because you have a condition that causes you chronic pain). To be honest, other people down talk kratom and state that it causes long-lasting depression/steals the color from life--but I've only found that to be true with stronger opiates. Kratom hasn't negatively impacted my life visibly other than the cost being somewhat pricey to maintain the habit. It's potency is perfect for me because it doesn't consume my motivation in life or turn me into a greedy monster constantly trying to redose. There's something lack luster about the high at times and it's definitely not as pleasurable as the real deal, but at least I can feel sober while using something to fill the opioid void. It's helped me get out of a darker part of my life and I will be LIVID if the government bans it or puts effort into prohibiting it. I'm already outraged at the attempts to make kratom look like it's borderline as deadly as heroin. Ridiculous (n)

So coming from an alcoholic background at one point.. would you state that alcohol is the strongest life-consuming substance and the most dangerous for chronic use? Methamphetamine and alcohol tend to be the substances that I've seen outwardly causing people severe grief and steal the most futures. It bothers me how many folks think that methamphetamine is harmless and positively improves their life. It's not adderall/ritalin. Even heroin addiction seems less dysfunctional than those two. Everyone's different, and not to say that there aren't functional alcoholics but it's such a poisonous drug and I've always hated how American society condones the addiction (while making weed seem like it's meth).
 
Yeah I wouldn't quit the kratom (especially because you have a condition that causes you chronic pain). To be honest, other people down talk kratom and state that it causes long-lasting depression/steals the color from life--but I've only found that to be true with stronger opiates. Kratom hasn't negatively impacted my life visibly other than the cost being somewhat pricey to maintain the habit. It's potency is perfect for me because it doesn't consume my motivation in life or turn me into a greedy monster constantly trying to redose. There's something lack luster about the high at times and it's definitely not as pleasurable as the real deal, but at least I can feel sober while using something to fill the opioid void. It's helped me get out of a darker part of my life and I will be LIVID if the government bans it or puts effort into prohibiting it. I'm already outraged at the attempts to make kratom look like it's borderline as deadly as heroin. Ridiculous (n)

So coming from an alcoholic background at one point.. would you state that alcohol is the strongest life-consuming substance and the most dangerous for chronic use? Methamphetamine and alcohol tend to be the substances that I've seen outwardly causing people severe grief and steal the most futures. It bothers me how many folks think that methamphetamine is harmless and positively improves their life. It's not adderall/ritalin. Even heroin addiction seems less dysfunctional than those two. Everyone's different, and not to say that there aren't functional alcoholics but it's such a poisonous drug and I've always hated how American society condones the addiction (while making weed seem like it's meth).

Thanks for your post!

I too cannot stand the demonizing of kratom or the negative comparisons made between it and stronger opioids. A little research shows this is not the case, yet the FDA continues to feed the public lies like a mother bird vomiting into her chicks mouths... the sheeple eat up that vomit for sure!

On the flipside of this, there's a large online kratom community (I'm thinking of one specifically) that seems to be willing to go to any length to distance kratom from opioids; they seemingly are willing to spread misinformation in their efforts and that bothers me as well.

Idk that a label can be put on one drug as the most consuming or dangerous, but some certainly are more so than others. D-Methamphetamine Hcl is available for ADHD treatment (and some type of eating disorder I believe) in the US as the pharmaceutical "Desoxyn" and some people are able to use this responsibly. But by and large, I personally believe the lifestyle of using heavy drugs is a large component of the harm they can cause. We could go on many tangents, like how say legalization could reduce criminal behavior and dangerous acts associated with using drugs (like sharing needles), but I wont get philosophical lol.

I'll try to find the studies, but older self administration studies on mice and rats have shown a clear dysfunctional lifestyle results from cocaine self administration as opposed to the heroin self administration group. The cocaine group tends to ignore their offspring, ignore their hygiene, and just wait to push that button again, incessantly. If you've ever IV'd cocaine then this will make a lot of sense! Just want more and more bellringers.

The heroin group tends to push the button, get a hit, and then go about their life and responsibilities until the need is again present, which leads them to go administer; but then just return to routine life. I think big picture, opioid addiction can be more functional than a heavy speed addiction, but all have the power to devastate one's life if abused/not respected imho.

The way this country (and many others) put alcohol on a pedestal is laughable. I actually broke my own rule in my previous post; I try not to use the term "alcoholic" and instead say "alcohol dependency" simply because the term "alcoholic" or "alcoholism" implies a difference between being dependent on alcohol and being dependent on any given drug, yet alcohol IS a drug. Many societies go out of there way to differentiate alcohol from drugs, even 12 step programs do this (Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous). Especially when the same peoples proceed to spew propaganda about other compounds or substances as being terrible or placing a moral judgment on their use.

In heavy addiction, I believe alcohol can easily become a ruthless killer and is incredibly devastating to the lives of those around the addicted person. I also believe it's possible to drink responsibly. I also believe it's possible to use heavy drugs responsibly. It's the respect piece, again, imho. If one does not respect these things, they tend to take control and put a person in their place by reminding them why respecting them is needed.

I have memories of like 15 years ago comparing the issues (and deaths) caused by alcohol in our society with the much less harmful issues (generally speaking) associated with cannabis use. I had not even heard of the harm reduction movement at that time. Go figure!

When I drink alcohol I tend to never feel satisfied. I also tend to drink bourbon. When I was younger alcohol is what I used when better drugs (imo) were unavailable. All of those things likely play into why I personally dont moderate alcohol well. And I'm irish haha.

Alcohol tends to make me instantly sad. I dont experience the giddy alcohol happiness until I'm about a pint of whiskey in, just before blacking out, and well that tends to not go well. The hangover also SUCKS! Most of the really fucked up situations I've gotten into in life were directly influenced by alcohol.

Sorry for the long AF post
 
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Thanks for your post!

I too cannot stand the demonizing of kratom or the negative comparisons made between it and stronger opioids. A little research shows this is not the case, yet the FDA continues to feed the public lies like a mother bird vomiting into her chicks mouths... the sheeple eat up that vomit for sure!

On the flipside of this, there's a large online kratom community (I'm thinking of one specifically) that seems to be willing to go to any length to distance kratom from opioids; they seemingly are willing to spread misinformation in their efforts and that bothers me as well.

Idk that a label can be put on one drug as the most consuming or dangerous, but some certainly are more so than others. D-Methamphetamine Hcl is available for ADHD treatment (and some type of eating disorder I believe) in the US as the pharmaceutical "Desoxyn" and some people are able to use this responsibly. But by and large, I personally believe the lifestyle of using heavy drugs is a large component of the harm they can cause. We could go on many tangents, like how say legalization could reduce criminal behavior and dangerous acts associated with using drugs (like sharing needles), but I wont get philosophical lol.

I'll try to find the studies, but older self administration studies on mice and rats have shown a clear dysfunctional lifestyle results from cocaine self administration as opposed to the heroin self administration group. The cocaine group tends to ignore their offspring, ignore their hygiene, and just wait to push that button again, incessantly. If you've ever IV'd cocaine then this will make a lot of sense! Just want more and more bellringers.

The heroin group tends to push the button, get a hit, and then go about their life and responsibilities until the need is again present, which leads them to go administer; but then just return to routine life. I think big picture, opioid addiction can be more functional than a heavy speed addiction, but all have the power to devastate one's life if abused/not respected imho.

The way this country (and many others) put alcohol on a pedestal is laughable. I actually broke my own rule in my previous post; I try not to use the term "alcoholic" and instead say "alcohol dependency" simply because the term "alcoholic" or "alcoholism" implies a difference between being dependent on alcohol and being dependent on any given drug, yet alcohol IS a drug. Many societies go out of there way to differentiate alcohol from drugs, even 12 step programs do this (Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous). Especially when the same peoples proceed to spew propaganda about other compounds or substances as being terrible or placing a moral judgment on their use.

In heavy addiction, I believe alcohol can easily become a ruthless killer and is incredibly devastating to the lives of those around the addicted person. I also believe it's possible to drink responsibly. I also believe it's possible to use heavy drugs responsibly. It's the respect piece, again, imho. If one does not respect these things, they tend to take control and put a person in their place by reminding them why respecting them is needed.

I have memories of like 15 years ago comparing the issues (and deaths) caused by alcohol in our society with the much less harmful issues (generally speaking) associated with cannabis use. I had not even heard of the harm reduction movement at that time. Go figure!

When I drink alcohol I tend to never feel satisfied. I also tend to drink bourbon. When I was younger alcohol is what I used when better drugs (imo) were unavailable. All of those things likely play into why I personally dont moderate alcohol well. And I'm irish haha.

Alcohol tends to make me instantly sad. I dont experience the giddy alcohol happiness until I'm about a pint of whiskey in, just before blacking out, and well that tends to not go well. The hangover also SUCKS! Most of the really fucked up situations I've gotten into in life were directly influenced by alcohol.

Sorry for the long AF post


That's so interesting about the rats lol.

Honestly opiates do not typically act as an intoxicating substance.. the stronger ones like methadone or pure heroin can, but the effects (especially within the beginning) are almost energizing. They make you a happier individual so it feels as though you can get more work done and be more engaged in life.

Opiate addiction is anything benign--as seen by the monumental amounts of overdosing and the junkies that have behaved like angry alcoholics and have taken down family members with their using. There are plenty of harmless opiate addicts, but plenty of harmful dope-sick stealing ones and manipulative ones. Just as there are those kinds of people for those without a drop of substance-use whatsoever lol. I think the US should educate people more on what drugs negatively have synergies with opiates (like Benzos, alcohol, etc.) and promote overdoses far more often. The US hands the pills out like chocolate and then does not properly leave patients with enough information on the substance because opiates are actually VERY complex in mechanics and potential side-effects. Point is that the US does not treat it's citizens right when it comes to potential addicts and already-made addicts.

Opiates definitely hit key points that no other drug on earth can. They're euphoric, energizing, energy-stealing, relatively physically benign (if you do not overdose), and non-neurotoxic. They also do not blast you off to the moon in a way that makes you dysfunctional for days on end--I've only witnessed that in people with severe heroin use and methadone. Even so, tolerance just gets higher and higher and the functional aspect of a user comes back as tolerance grows. However, opioids are definitely not intoxicating (imo). I'd say that most drugs are short-lived and opiates included. Meth has insanely fast diminishing returns and literally takes away one's insanity in heavy use (they always claim otherwise lol). Cocaine leads to heart failure and other dopamine-related complications. Etc. Opiates lose their euphoria entirely in long-term use and alter hormones negatively/can steal one's will to live. It's just a sad reality that very few addicts have ever been able to sustain any kind of drug-related lifestyle. Even kratom does not have feet that run forever. The effects diminish in time and eventually kratom can become totally unfeelable. I can still feel kratom a lot, but even so the effects are less impressive that's for sure.
 
That's so interesting about the rats lol.

Honestly opiates do not typically act as an intoxicating substance.. the stronger ones like methadone or pure heroin can, but the effects (especially within the beginning) are almost energizing. They make you a happier individual so it feels as though you can get more work done and be more engaged in life.

Opiate addiction is anything benign--as seen by the monumental amounts of overdosing and the junkies that have behaved like angry alcoholics and have taken down family members with their using. There are plenty of harmless opiate addicts, but plenty of harmful dope-sick stealing ones and manipulative ones. Just as there are those kinds of people for those without a drop of substance-use whatsoever lol. I think the US should educate people more on what drugs negatively have synergies with opiates (like Benzos, alcohol, etc.) and promote overdoses far more often. The US hands the pills out like chocolate and then does not properly leave patients with enough information on the substance because opiates are actually VERY complex in mechanics and potential side-effects. Point is that the US does not treat it's citizens right when it comes to potential addicts and already-made addicts.

Opiates definitely hit key points that no other drug on earth can. They're euphoric, energizing, energy-stealing, relatively physically benign (if you do not overdose), and non-neurotoxic. They also do not blast you off to the moon in a way that makes you dysfunctional for days on end--I've only witnessed that in people with severe heroin use and methadone. Even so, tolerance just gets higher and higher and the functional aspect of a user comes back as tolerance grows. However, opioids are definitely not intoxicating (imo). I'd say that most drugs are short-lived and opiates included. Meth has insanely fast diminishing returns and literally takes away one's insanity in heavy use (they always claim otherwise lol). Cocaine leads to heart failure and other dopamine-related complications. Etc. Opiates lose their euphoria entirely in long-term use and alter hormones negatively/can steal one's will to live. It's just a sad reality that very few addicts have ever been able to sustain any kind of drug-related lifestyle. Even kratom does not have feet that run forever. The effects diminish in time and eventually kratom can become totally unfeelable. I can still feel kratom a lot, but even so the effects are less impressive that's for sure.

I've definitely been intoxicated on opiates, unable to walk without collapsing, slurring, nodding in and out mid sentence. This often occurred with morphine, heroin, and methadone, and without the aid of other sedatives. A few times I really remember it felt like my legs were sludge and it was so difficult to walk (heroin).

Opioid euphoria is also associated with dopamine release; most euphoric states are as far as I know. Long term opioid use likely has a down regulating effect on natural dopamine production and subsequent levels. But you are correct that opioids are not neurotoxic and generally speaking, if not abused, aren't toxic to the body in many ways.

My first opioid experience ever was 30mg methadone and it nearly killed me (NOT SAFE). To this day I am surprised I did not end up in a coma. It was so awful for days, vomiting and spinning, unable to move really. I had no idea what I was doing. The classics newbie mistake... took 2 and didnt feel anything after an hour so took the 3rd, not knowing methadone peaks around 3 hours. Next thing I know I wake up (about 5 hours post dosing) and just start projectile vomiting. I've never been so intoxicated in my life. I was 13 years old and living with my mother.

More than likely the returns will diminish with most substances as you've said. I just dont think it's possible to categorize all substances or one as the most devastating. Of course, there tends to be some main players (opioids, alcohol, methamphetamine, cocaine). Though my boy Sigmund Freud was a huge cocaine addict! Lol it's interesting how many historical figures were into opiates and/or stimulants.

I believe dependency can look different, on different people, and with different drugs. For example, I was heavily addicted to black tar heroin and one day found myself smack dab in the middle of a huge methamphetamine ring; you ever see the movie "Spun"?

I used meth daily for about one year, in heavy doses via smoke and insufflation mainly, also oral. It's the one I didnt inject bc my girlfriend at the time wouldn't allow it lol even though we smoked crack and speed daily.

Anyway, meth was the easiest thing for me to walk away from. One day I left and haven't used it again and that was like 12 years ago. I was pleased to be away from it. I didnt break many of my personal morals for methamphetamine. However, this is clearly not the case for everyone.

Opiates on the other hand... they walked me hand in hand all the way to the gutter and nearly death. Every single line I set for myself, I eventually crossed. Every single one. I was incredibly dysfunctional until I had literally nothing. We each have our own demon(s) so to speak.

Kratom has certainly diminished in its effect in the 5 or so years I've been on it. However, I haven't had any physiological issues develop (as of yet anyway) and routinely have medical examinations done. No darkening of skin pigmentation. The withdrawal is intense no doubt and others can corroborate this; Xorkoth being one who has shared strong accounts of kratom addiction akin to my own. I can still catch a good high and analgesia from kratom, just requires a larger amount.

I actually owe Xorkoth a big thanks! I took your advice on the tea method and have been loving it! It's become my nightly routine once the vyvanse (prescribed) wears off studying for hours and hours.

Side note... I was vacuuming the house yesterday and found a 30mg MS Contin stuck under the slider of a closet door lol. It had been there a while as much of the coating had worn away. Score 😁
 
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I've definitely been intoxicated on opiates, unable to walk without collapsing, slurring, nodding in and out mid sentence. This often occurred with morphine, heroin, and methadone, and without the aid of other sedatives. A few times I really remember it felt like my legs were sludge and it was so difficult to walk (heroin).

My first opioid experience ever was 30mg methadone and it nearly killed me (NOT SAFE). To this day I am surprised I did not end up in a coma. It was so awful for days, vomiting and spinning, unable to move really. I had no idea what I was doing. The classics newbie mistake... took 2 and didnt feel anything after an hour so took the 3rd, not knowing methadone peaks around 3 hours. Next thing I know I wake up (about 5 hours post dosing) and just start projectile vomiting. I've never been so intoxicated in my life. I was 13 years old and living with my mother.

More than likely the returns will diminish with most substances as you've said. I just dont think it's possible to categorize all substances or one as the most devastating. Of course, there tends to be some main players (opioids, alcohol, methamphetamine, cocaine). Though my boy Sigmund Freud was a huge cocaine addict! Lol it's interesting how many historical figures were into opiates and/or stimulants.

I believe dependency can look different, on different people, and with different drugs. For example, I was heavily addicted to black tar heroin and one day found myself smack dab in the middle of a huge methamphetamine ring; you ever see the movie "Spun"?

I used meth daily for about one year, in heavy doses via smoke and insufflation mainly, also oral. It's the one I didnt inject bc my girlfriend at the time wouldn't allow it lol even though we smoked crack and speed daily.

Anyway, meth was the easiest thing for me to walk away from. One day I left and haven't used it again and that was like 12 years ago. I was pleased to be away from it. I didnt break many of my personal morals for methamphetamine. However, this is clearly not the case for everyone.

Opiates on the other hand... they walked me hand in hand all the way to the gutter and nearly death. Every single line I set for myself, I eventually crossed. Every single one. I was incredibly dysfunctional until I had literally nothing. We each have our own demon(s) so to speak.

Side note... I was vacuuming the house yesterday and found a 30mg MS Contin stuck under the slider of a closet door lol. It had been there a while as much of the coating had worn away. Score 😁

I'm jealous of your find. I've lost a blue a long time ago that still to this day haunts me LOL. So frustrating :LOL:

I do think you're right about how you can't determine which drugs are more destructive than the next. But there's tangible positive and negative effects that can be tracked from users and how the substances affected their lives. People who abuse heroin have vastly different problems than someone who only abuses methamphetamine for example. But I would state that meth is probably the most potent harder drug and that's so often overlooked by meth users. It's euphoric and energizing so it's easy to overlook the strain it puts on your body and it's neurotoxicity. There are a large number of "functional" heroin addicts out there, but I've never met a functional meth addict. If they do have functionality, it doesn't seem to last for very long before they lose their sanity. Not to say that there aren't good people who use meth on a regular basis or that it's impossible to have a life with meth use, but I haven't met anyone who hasn't spiraled into a dark abyss after shortly touching meth (and they never seem to blame meth for their downfall). It's never the drugs lol.

Maybe it's because I've never dabbled in stronger opies that I don't find them to be intoxicating. I'm glad you survived the deathadone experience. Methadone/heroin/dilauded I guess are just about the strongest ones iirc--and seed tea can whoop someone badly. Fentynal is obviously a ridiculously powerful opiate analogue and carfentinal is even deadlier, but the half life is shorter in comparison. It's becoming more popular for recreational use lately because of the overwhelming amount of fentalogues going around these days, but it tends not to be the preference of many opiate addicts for whatever reasons (regarding fentynal). Heavier opiate addicts usually tend to prefer heroin/methadone from what I've seen. I'd be so paranoid to even give fent a try because the line between getting high and dying is so minute. Chewing on a fent patch just sounds like you're asking for death if you don't have obscene tolerance.
 

Here's the abstract to the old study ^^ the mortality rate is striking!
It was in the 80s but a quick search reveals ones conducted much more recently.

If you haven't used those stronger opioids I highly suggest not doing so in the name of recreation. Playing with fire for those of us who fucking mouth wateringly love opioids lol. I've used all the ones you mentioned, and others. I am most definitely not a fentanyl fan. I actually had a medical procedure once in which light sedation was to be administered with midazolam and fentanyl. 5 injections later and I was screaming on the table.

Papaver somniferum pod or seed tea is morphine, codeine, and many other opiate alkaloids as I'm sure you are aware.
 
And I agree that methamphetamine is soul sucking and most definitely neurotoxic. I was just pointing out that it is used as a pharmaceutical and some people do not have issues with its use. Devils advocate I suppose.

Method of use (ROA) should be taken into account also. IMHO I just dont think it's as simple as pointing to one drug and saying "it's bad"; I do however see what you are saying and respect your opinion.
 

Here's the abstract to the old study ^^ the mortality rate is striking!
It was in the 80s but a quick search reveals ones conducted much more recently.

If you haven't used those stronger opioids I highly suggest not doing so in the name of recreation. Playing with fire for those of us who fucking mouth wateringly love opioids lol. I've used all the ones you mentioned, and others. I am most definitely not a fentanyl fan. I actually had a medical procedure once in which light sedation was to be administered with midazolam and fentanyl. 5 injections later and I was screaming on the table.

Papaver somniferum pod or seed tea is morphine, codeine, and many other opiate alkaloids as I'm sure you are aware.

Could heroin use ever become physically destructive/fatal if it's only done intranasally or other creative ways of insertion that I don't know of? I've heard that in severe opiate abuse the withdrawal can cause heart failure (I've heard this only has occurred from improper fentynal detox/methadone from obscure situations like withdrawing in jail cells without proper treatment). I've read that severe heroin abuse can cause organ failure. I'm not sure if that's true or not bc I don't know scientifically how it could cause organ failure but I wouldn't doubt it. Street heroin is usually not of good purity from what I gather and who knows what could be in it other than fent occasionally.

As far as touching stronger opiates I totally agree with you. I have no desire. Kicking mild ones like kratom is already so hard lol! The up and the down is just too powerful from literally any opiate honestly. I've had my experiment with seed tea but after seeing how powerful it was I threw out the remainder of the batch out of fear. Seed tea is definitely not a mild opiate LOL. The most potent opioid I've touched is subutex. I've never been stoned like that and for the entire day I was dysfunctional off of a simple .5 milligram dose. I couldn't believe what was happening. I think that subs can be just as strong as the most potent of opiates if the user has mild tolerance. That's why it shocks me when people are like "I'm on 24 milligrams of suboxone and I don't even catch a buzz." 24 milligrams would be the same experience as you had with the methadone tablets if not just instant death.

As far as kratom goes I woudn't put it past it to ruin a marriage or cause someone a ton of grief in their life. But no one is going to sit in a basement 24/7 gobbling kratom--it's just not that good. Plus there's a ceiling cap with the substance and if you go past it it's pure dizziness and nausea and the euphoric properties seem to be negated with the unpleasant side effects of higher doses. Idk, I know kratom isn't harmless but it's just not as abuse-friendly as other substances. It doesn't even come close to the power of heroin imo. I've found that kratom withdrawal doesn't occur when tapering down doses too and that could just be me. When I cut back I notice some grogginess and a slight lack of enjoyment out of my days but it's not like tapering off oxy or something where you feel the misery. Then again I know someone who ruined his entire life smoking weed and I used to think weed was virtually harmless.. so it might just depend on the person. I still stand by kratom being a very weak narcotic if you can even it that.
 
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Could heroin use ever become physically destructive/fatal if it's only done intranasally or other creative ways of insertion that I don't know of? I've heard that in severe opiate abuse the withdrawal can cause heart failure (I've heard this only has occurred from improper fentynal detox/methadone from obscure situations like withdrawing in jail cells without proper treatment). I've read that severe heroin abuse can cause organ failure. I'm not sure if that's true or not bc I don't know scientifically how it could cause organ failure but I wouldn't doubt it. Street heroin is usually not of good purity from what I gather and who knows what could be in it other than fent occasionally.

As far as touching stronger opiates I totally agree with you. I have no desire. Kicking mild ones like kratom is already so hard lol! The up and the down is just too powerful from literally any opiate honestly. I've had my experiment with seed tea but after seeing how powerful it was I threw out the remainder of the batch out of fear. Seed tea is definitely not a mild opiate LOL. The most potent opioid I've touched is subutex. I've never been stoned like that and for the entire day I was dysfunctional off of a simple .5 milligram dose. I couldn't believe what was happening. I think that subs can be just as strong as the most potent of opiates if the user has mild tolerance. That's why it shocks me when people are like "I'm on 24 milligrams of suboxone and I don't even catch a buzz." 24 milligrams would be the same experience as you had with the methadone tablets if not just instant death.

As far as kratom goes I woudn't put it past it to ruin a marriage or cause someone a ton of grief in their life. But no one is going to sit in a basement 24/7 gobbling kratom--it's just not that good. Plus there's a ceiling cap with the substance and if you go past it it's pure dizziness and nausea and the euphoric properties seem to be negated with the unpleasant side effects of higher doses. Idk, I know kratom isn't harmless but it's just not as abuse-friendly as other substances. It doesn't even come close to the power of heroin imo. I've found that kratom withdrawal doesn't occur when tapering down doses too and that could just be me. When I cut back I notice some grogginess and a slight lack of enjoyment out of my days but it's not like tapering off oxy or something where you feel the misery. Then again I know someone who ruined his entire life smoking weed and I used to think weed was virtually harmless.. so it might just depend on the person. I still stand by kratom being a very weak narcotic if you can even it that.

For the sake of staying on the topic of mitragyna speciosa, I'd be happy to message with you on some of your questions. With that said, it's certainly not medical advice and I don't know all that much about this stuff. One can absolutely die from heroin overdose via any ROA and dependency will occur with repeated use regardless of ROA.

I'd hate for someone trying to kick to come along and find a bunch of conversation about heroin in the mitragyna speciosa HR thread for the sake of their sanity.

I do speculate that heavy kratom use could be detrimental to the kidney's with long term use but there again is not any reliable and consistent evidence pointing to this. Multiple systems within our bodies are engaged constantly in a magnificent balancing act with an unbelievably narrow range for changes within the system to occur.

Eating a ton of kratom, I could see how this may stress some of these systems in the long run, but again, nothing definitive yet. Just a speculation of mine.

You are correct in saying that kratom does not have the same level of abuse potential as stronger opioids or opiates. And I would assume functional use is less of a challenge across the board with kratom; as you said it's hard to imagine someone sitting in a basement only consuming kratom constantly as one often does with other substances, and I would agree with you generally speaking. However, I would also bet money that someone has had that experience, probably someone even here on BL. There's always some outliers. Also, kratom use doesn't exist in a vacuum so to speak. Many people (myself included) use kratom as another drug in the toolbox and alongside many other substances.
 
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