Opioids methadone and the "blocking" effect

[yies]

So we all know about the "blocking" effect of methadone. While it doesn't really block opiates like suboxone would it does saturate the opiate receptors in the brain to the point where other opiates don't have an effect of the receptors.

This is not what I need to know about. I need to know how long without methadone I would have to go to start feeling other opiates? (currently on 85mg) If i were to goto pharmacy on friday, get my drink but try and spit out as much as possible on way out. grab my 2 carries for sat an sun. only drink say 5-10mls out of the bottle for both sat an sun to keep from going into major w/d and then miss monday and tuesday would i be able to get high on tuesday do you guys think? Would be IV hydromorphone

 

[cj]

That's actually not how the blocking effect of methodone works I don't think. I think the blocking effect comes from tolerance doesn't it? That's what I have always thought anyway. So not dosing will lower your tolerance and you will certainly be in withdrawal by Tuesday. So yeah I would think a dose equivalent to 85ng methodone would get you high

 

[yies]

That's actually not how the blocking effect of methodone works I don't think. I think the blocking effect comes from tolerance doesn't it? That's what I have always thought anyway. So not dosing will lower your tolerance and you will certainly be in withdrawal by Tuesday. So yeah I would think a dose equivalent to 85ng methodone would get you high

Well you are sort of correct. It is a bit of both. but the full blocking effect doesn't set in until you are on 60-80mg of methadone. At which point the receptors are saturated to the point where you wont feel any euphoria from other opiates, except those that saturate the receptors more so than methadone, hence why fentanyl can cut through

 

[Ne0]

I know people who are on 120mg/daily methadone and abuse strong opioids like fentanly few times a month and still get high, they just need huge doses.

 

[Jabberwocky]

When I was on methadone (up to 90mg) I could still feel other opioids (well powerful ones, like IM heroin). Actually I was able to feel hydrocodone and oxycodone (and codeine) pretty easily, although I didn't try until I was a little lower with my dose.

Why are you interested in this OP?

Generally if you've had a problem with opioids chipping while using methadone is a horrible idea. It's not the end of the world to do it once in a while, like if you slip up here and there or something, but making a habit of it is a horrible idea. It will make the methadone less effective at controlling cravings and jack your tolerance up super high. Plus the risk of OD is very real when combining other opioids with methadone. Really best avoided.

The last thing you want is a habit with methadone AND another opioid, particularly if you don't absolutely need to take another opioids for pain issues or something. Coming off a double habit like that is infinitely more difficult than just methadone. Plus a big part of methadone is to stabilize, and this is a lot harder to do when combining methadone with a recreational dose of another opioid.

 

[yies]

When I was on methadone (up to 90mg) I could still feel other opioids (well powerful ones, like IM heroin). Actually I was able to feel hydrocodone and oxycodone (and codeine) pretty easily, although I didn't try until I was a little lower with my dose.

Why are you interested in this OP?

Generally if you've had a problem with opioids chipping while using methadone is a horrible idea. It's not the end of the world to do it once in a while, like if you slip up here and there or something, but making a habit of it is a horrible idea. It will make the methadone less effective at controlling cravings and jack your tolerance up super high. Plus the risk of OD is very real when combining other opioids with methadone. Really best avoided.

The last thing you want is a habit with methadone AND another opioid, particularly if you don't absolutely need to take another opioids for pain issues or something. Coming off a double habit like that is infinitely more difficult than just methadone. Plus a big part of methadone is to stabilize, and this is a lot harder to do when combining methadone with a recreational dose of another opioid.

I just want to get high lots of shit going on in life. And ive used a few times in the past while on methadone without getting hooked again (fent) that cut through but thats smoking popcorn ive heard too many horror stories of shooting bad popcorn around here to even try shooting it. I did a shot of hydromorph of what would have normally been plently not on methadone and it literally didnt do a damn thing for me not even a warm feeling. I don't even have the money to support a habit right now not working so I couldn't use every day even if i did want to.

I know people who are on 120mg/daily methadone and abuse strong opioids like fentanly few times a month and still get high, they just need huge doses.

Yeah, i know fent can cut through ive done that but any fentanyl around is just way too expensive. 300/patch and 40-50/p for corn. no thanks.

 

[Prescottdave]

So we all know about the "blocking" effect of methadone. While it doesn't really block opiates like suboxone would it does saturate the opiate receptors in the brain to the point where other opiates don't have an effect of the receptors.

This is not what I need to know about. I need to know how long without methadone I would have to go to start feeling other opiates? (currently on 85mg) If i were to goto pharmacy on friday, get my drink but try and spit out as much as possible on way out. grab my 2 carries for sat an sun. only drink say 5-10mls out of the bottle for both sat an sun to keep from going into major w/d and then miss monday and tuesday would i be able to get high on tuesday do you guys think? Would be IV hydromorphone

The blocking effect comes from methadones ability to jack up your tolerance. Not only would your idea not work it would likely cause WD symptoms.

In my experience the only opiates to work on top of a dose of methadone above say 80 mg would include fent. If you want to get high off other opiates you would have to work at getting your dose down below 40 mg's. If you did happen to do this you would only be able to use other illicit opiates for a few days before your tolerance would jump back up.It would takes weeks of work and extreme physical WD's just to be able to use a few times.

When a person reaches as far as high dose methadone use at a clinic you can say goodbye to getting extremely high off opiates. Are addictions trick our body into thinking we can continue to chase that old feeling we first experienced when we started using.

 

[yies]

The blocking effect comes from methadones ability to jack up your tolerance. Not only would your idea not work it would likely cause WD symptoms.

In my experience the only opiates to work on top of a dose of methadone above say 80 mg would include fent. If you want to get high off other opiates you would have to work at getting your dose down below 40 mg's. If you did happen to do this you would only be able to use other illicit opiates for a few days before your tolerance would jump back up.It would takes weeks of work and extreme physical WD's just to be able to use a few times.

When a person reaches as far as high dose methadone use at a clinic you can say goodbye to getting extremely high off opiates. Are addictions trick our body into thinking we can continue to chase that old feeling we first experienced when we started using.

Methadone is not just a tolerance thing you can look it up. tolerance plays a roll but the blocking effect comes from the receptors being so saturated by the methadone that there is "no more room" on the receptors for others to attach to. Obviously its going to cause W/d im well aware of that. I've already started the process so I guess I'll find out tuesday if its going to work or not. I want to use once one night thats it. have the will power to do so. If i didn't I wouldn't be doing it. this isn't my first rodeo with opiate addiction trust me.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Tolerance to exogenous endorphins and down-regulation in the body's endogenous endorphin's environment both plays a role in why methadone works as well as it does for some people (and as to why it can be problematic).

That is my strange way of saying your both right in terms of how methadone works. They aren't mutually exclusive ways of looking at it, just distinct (methadone being a full agonist and buprenorphine being a partial agonist/antagonist).

In other news, oh boy: the coyotes are howling outside my window. They sing such a sickly sweet song

 

[yies]

Tolerance to exogenous endorphins and down-regulation in the body's endogenous endorphin's environment both plays a role in why methadone works as well as it does for some people (and as to why it can be problematic).

That is my strange way of saying your both right in terms of how methadone works. They aren't mutually exclusive ways of looking at it, just distinct (methadone being a full agonist and buprenorphine being a partial agonist/antagonist).

In other news, oh boy: the coyotes are howling outside my window. They sing such a sickly sweet song

Thats what i was trying to say was that both play a role in it. I always agreed and never said thats not how it works just said there was more to it than that and man i love that howl. We hear them every night just about out here.

 

[Chemist4Hire]

Methadone has a blocking effect when you have used it long term, to be clear it does not cause PWD or WD when using other opiates/opioids besides combining suboxone because the naloxone present on some of the receptors. With general use of Methadone you should be able to use any other opiate to get high or keep WD's at bay. Be careful with some full agonists like Fentanyl, because it has potential to be fatal. Hydrocodone and many other opiates have paracetamol/NPAP/NSAID's in them which are very lethal when stacking them to get high so educate yourself on lethality of acetaminophen dosage.

 

[Chemist4Hire]

Well you are sort of correct. It is a bit of both. but the full blocking effect doesn't set in until you are on 60-80mg of methadone. At which point the receptors are saturated to the point where you wont feel any euphoria from other opiates, except those that saturate the receptors more so than methadone, hence why fentanyl can cut through

Agreed, but 60-80mg is not the only dosage or starting point of blockage, Methadone has a higher affinity to µ opioid receptors than that of full agonist opioids/opiates like Percocet/Hydrocodone they are in a class called SAO(short acting Opioids), and Methadone HCL, Bupreneorphine HCL, are in a class of Moderate to long acting Opiates aka: MAO/LAO's not to be confused with MAOI's.

NOTE: You withdrawal from not having opiates in on your µ and sometimes Kappa receptors as well as 3/6 ethers that cause release of Dopamine, Endorphins and Serotonin levels, when all the receptors start to empty usually when half life of opiate subsides and it falls off receptor your body goes through withdrawal since Dopamine and serotonin together regulate mood, mental stability, pain, immunity to allergens and many more. Together with that fact abusing these substances cause the pleasure centers to quit producing said chemicals and release subsides to a degree that is below normal thus WD's start. The only reason µ(Mu) receptor blockage happens is caused by higher affinity µ agonists since hydromorphone is (weaker/lower) affinity to µ receptors than Oxymorphone and Diacetalmorphine(heroin). the higher affinity beats it out and pulls it off the receptor. this can cause symptoms like sweating/perspiration, nausea and headaches but not always, it depends on many factors including BA of both substances to metabolism of µ agonist.
EDIT i corrected where i was wrong: for some reason i listed heroin with long acting opioids. TY prescottdave

That's actually not how the blocking effect of methodone works I don't think. I think the blocking effect comes from tolerance doesn't it? That's what I have always thought anyway. So not dosing will lower your tolerance and you will certainly be in withdrawal by Tuesday. So yeah I would think a dose equivalent to 85ng methodone would get you high

this guy tells the truth^

 

[Prescottdave]

Agreed, but 60-80mg is not the only dosage or starting point of blockage, Methadone has a higher affinity to µ opioid receptors than that of full agonist opioids/opiates like Percocet/Hydrocodone they are in a class called SAO(short acting Opioids), and Methadone HCL, Bupreneorphine HCL, Fentanyl HCL, diacetylmorphine are in a class of Moderate to long acting Opiates aka: MAO/LAO's not to be confused with MAOI's.

NOTE: You withdrawal from not having opiates in on your µ and sometimes Kappa receptors as well as 3/6 ethers that cause release of Dopamine, Endorphins and Serotonin levels, when all the receptors start to empty usually when half life of opiate subsides and it falls off receptor your body goes through withdrawal since Dopamine and serotonin together regulate mood, mental stability, pain, immunity to allergens and many more. Together with that fact abusing these substances cause the pleasure centers to quit producing said chemicals and release subsides to a degree that is below normal thus WD's start. The only reason µ(Mu) receptor blockage happens is caused by higher affinity µ agonists since hydromorphone is (weaker/lower) affinity to µ receptors than Oxymorphone and Diacetalmorphine(heroin). the higher affinity beats it out and pulls it off the receptor. this can cause symptoms like sweating/perspiration, nausea and headaches but not always, it depends on many factors including BA of both substances to metabolism of µ



this guy tells the truth^

There is a large amount of misinformation in your posts. Firstly Fentanyl in all forms as HCL is just a salt form of the drug is known as a short acting opiate. Heroin is also not known as a long acting opioid. Methadone is a full agonist and the fact that Suboxone causes precipitated WD or blocks other opioids has nothing to due with the addition of naloxone. I encourage you to look at the Naabt website or studies done by the NIH to get a better idea on how Suboxone actually displaces and blocks full agonists like methadone.

As far as the original question I believe it would just take some time to taper before other opioids would start producing a euphoric effect. I looked at some studies on the NIH to learn about the drugs blockade effect and was only able to find a correlation with tolerance. I do believe though that methadone does cause a saturation effect by filling the receptors as some other posters have hinted at.

 

[Prescottdave]

Per the NIH methadones blockade effect develops from cross tolerance thus why tapering is suggested.

 

[Keif' Richards]

I know that I'm late to the party, as it were, but I have an opinion. The problem with Methadone Maintenance, or, you could say, the benefit of it, is that it's not something that can be easily initiated and then stopped. Maintenance is really a commitment and it's not something that you can fuck with in the manner that you intend to and still have a stable, functional life. It's not worth it to be sick and unwell for days simply to enjoy an injection of Hydromorphone (Dilaudid)

Speaking from experience, you will need significantly more time than just a day or two to reduce your tolerance to a point where you would truly "enjoy" another Opioid agonist. I've missed two days of Methadone in the past and injected entire grams and bundles and all they did was make me well. I was at a similar dose to you. I would say that it probably takes at least a week to get to a point where any other Opioid will be truly worthwhile.

I'm not judging, but I really think that you're wasting your time and energy on these ventures. You will be much better off sticking to your maintenance and finding recreational experiences elsewhere. If you don't want to be on maintenance, than you should simply quit and stop playing games with it. You're only going to fuck with your own head and ultimately, be disappointed.

 

[Chemist4Hire]

There is a large amount of misinformation in your posts. Firstly Fentanyl in all forms as HCL is just a salt form of the drug is known as a short acting opiate. Heroin is also not known as a long acting opioid. Methadone is a full agonist and the fact that Suboxone causes precipitated WD or blocks other opioids has nothing to due with the addition of naloxone. I encourage you to look at the Naabt website or studies done by the NIH to get a better idea on how Suboxone actually displaces and blocks full agonists like methadone.

As far as the original question I believe it would just take some time to taper before other opioids would start producing a euphoric effect. I looked at some studies on the NIH to learn about the drugs blockade effect and was only able to find a correlation with tolerance. I do believe though that methadone does cause a saturation effect by filling the receptors as some other posters have hinted at.

Yes i made a mistake and heroin in not supposed to be listed under long acting neither was fentanyl Hydroclouride(HCL) I have found many studies that suggest Naloxone does in fact have some effect on PWD and WD, and we are finding it may even have effect with Bupe, but its also possible that Nor-bupe has lower affinity than Bupe and that could cause pull off from receptors. But i do not believe i have made a mistake with Naloxone and its effects with other opiates. I have seen many post why they think Naloxone has no effect but have yet to provide concrete evidence as in double blind/double dummies studies to support their claims. We all know Naloxone is an Antagonist to both MU and KAppa, and that Bupreneorphine is a partial Agonist to MU opioid receptors but is not an agonist to Kappa: its a partial antagonist to the Kappa. this is why i find it hard to believe Bupe pulls all preexisting bupreneorphine off unless it's Norbupreneorphine getting pulled off by the higher affinity of the three Bupreneorphine.
Nothing against you, i see you have strong belief's for Naloxone being inactive while Bupe is present and i have nothing against anyone, I just can't believe it unless its explained Scientifically and backed with sufficient evidence, when all the doctors, Chemists, Pharmaceutical engineers iv'e asked say Naloxone is responsible for at least 30% then i have a very hard time accepting someones suggestion/opinion without facts and references.
NOTE: You seem very knowledgeable pertaining to Opiates and their interactions with the human body. I am in no way attacking you. I started a thread (click here to see the thread) to get to the bottom of this, no matter the outcome, if we find sufficient evidence that says Bupe does it all and Naloxone does nothing whatsoever, then i will have to agree with it and have no problem doing so. I don't care what the result is i just want several new studies showing proof narrowing the absolute cause.