Opioids Methadone 5 mg every 48 hrs. Minimal dependency. Can i do bupe w/o precip. Wd?

[LucidSDreamr]

So I've only used methadone for 1 month. Was non dependent on opiates before then.

I take 5 mg every other say. I cam go 5 days clean with minimal WD (just sleep trouble) Would I be able to take bupe without going into precipitated withdrawal without waiting a long time post methadone dose?

 

[negrogesic]

Hard to say but I'd still wait at least a few days to attempt taking buprenorphine after taking even a small dose of methadone. Methadone withdrawal doesn't really get going until day 9. When I tapered from 380mg to 5mg and then cold turkeyed the withdrawal was surprisingly severe. Not worth the risk, wait.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Hard to say but I'd still wait at least a few days to attempt taking buprenorphine after taking even a small dose of methadone. Methadone withdrawal doesn't really get going until day 9. When I tapered from 380mg to 5mg and then cold turkeyed the withdrawal was surprisingly severe. Not worth the risk, wait.

But i was never that dependent I went from clean...to only 5 mg from naive.for a few weeks. Plus I just went 5 days clean last week with minimal withdrawal (only difficult sleeping on days 4 and 5)...I'll add that roughly 30 percent of my dose days were only 2.5 mg...
Not even 5 mg

Shouldn't precipitated WD only happen if I would have a normal WD if if cold turkeyed?...which I don't have st this time. stage.

I could switch to Norco for a few days then go to bupe (a transition I am well familiar with) but done to bupe is new territory.

I can tell you....before these few weeks on 5mg.dome every other day, I was getting waaay higher off 1 or 2 mg bupe than 5 mg done. (This was before the previous several week done use. I was sort of alternating between the two at that time but also taking 3 to 4 days off everything in-between. Albiet I hadn't had the 3 week regular 5 mg done every 48 hrs I have been doing latley. So I feel like I'd be higher of I switched...not in WD. But I'm well aware it's a sketchy transition make so that's why I ask.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

But i was never that dependent I went from clean...to only 5 mg from naive.for a few weeks. Plus I just went 5 days clean last week with minimal withdrawal (only difficult sleeping on days 4 and 5)...I'll add that roughly 30 percent of my dose days were only 2.5 mg...
Not even 5 mg

Shouldn't precipitated WD only happen if I would have a normal WD if if cold turkeyed?...which I don't have st this time. stage.

I could switch to Norco for a few days then go to bupe (a transition I am well familiar with) but done to bupe is new territory.

I can tell you....before these few weeks on 5mg.dome every other day, I was getting waaay higher off 1 or 2 mg bupe than 5 mg done. (This was before the previous several week done use. I was sort of alternating between the two at that time but also taking 3 to 4 days off everything in-between. Albiet I hadn't had the 3 week regular 5 mg done every 48 hrs I have been doing latley. So I feel like I'd be higher of I switched...not in WD. But I'm well aware it's a sketchy transition make so that's why I ask.

You actually might feel "higher" from the bupe. 5mg of methadone is pretty small. Although I've never been depedent on methadone, so I can't say.

Technically bupe is only a partial agonist, so you shouldn't feel higher but 5mg is such a low dose that it's hard to say. The equivalency charts use to list a couple mg of buprenorphine as having the same agonist activity as 30mg of methadone. So I guess it's not impossible.

I'd still follow negrogesic's advice and wait as long as you can and then try the bupe.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I believe that DeathIndustrial is closer to the truth than negrogesic. Especially if you take a sufficient dose of buprenorphine. There may be some symptoms while methadone is being kicked off from receptors but as your dose of methadone is so small buprenorphine should overpower it in no time. That is my guess. I switched from 30mg methadone daily to buprenorphine with a 7 day morphine "bridge" and did not experience a bad transition. Had to endure some withdrawals from morphine but it wasn't that bad.

If you want to be sure that you don't experience anything negative and get high immediately (for a few days you will probably get high on buprenorphine until you adjust) then wait ~3 days with no methadone intake. But I think it is not necessary.

P.S. I am just giving you my opinion and this is your body, your decision and you will have to endure all the effects, good and bad ones. I hope you have a smooth transition.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I agree with Psycho_Logic. Been on bupe for years.

When you do start on the bupe, start low too. Like 0.25mg or .5mg
Bupe is very potent and if you are looking for the 'high' effects, you'll get more out of it at these lower doses.
I've seen non tolerant people puke & nod for 6-12hrs off half a milligram of buprenorphine. It's ridiculously potent.
The higher dosages are for people coming off long term heroin/full agonist dependency.

These smaller doses also help lower your chance of being thrown into precipitated withdrawal. And if you do end up in PWD, you can still take methadone over these low doses and get a synergistic effect.

You can always increase the dose too if you don't feel anything. Bupe can take awhile to kick in though too.

I use to be able to mix small doses of bupe and heroin and they would actually potentiate each other to some degree, but I always used the full agonist AFTER I had taken the bupe.

So if you take a dose of bupe and feel like you're in withdrawal, you should be able to still pop a methadone and be covered. Just be very careful doing this!!!

Some people theorize that at low doses, bupe's metabolite, norbuprenorphine (which is a full agonist) has a chance to attach to receptors, but the consensuses on this is muddy and no one knows for sure if norbuprenorphine is active or not. Some research papers say it isn't and some say it is. Some say bupe has no respiratory depression effects at all, so any respiratory depression you get from it could be from norbuprenorphine. Maybe one day we'll know for sure if it's active or not.

 

[SteeleyJ]

I agree if you switch to bupe I would advise taking an 8mg sub and cutting 8 squares.... then cutting each of the squares into 3 pieces. That will be around .3mg. Should be plenty with the amount of methadone you are using. You can always go up of it doesn't work but If your goal is to find something comparable.... that is my advice.

 

[LivingOnValium]

I'm quite positive that if 5mg methadone will hold you from withdrawal for 48h you can successfully take buprenorphine without any shitty feelings. My expectation is that if you wait 48h after taking 5mg methadone and then take a dose buprenorphine (let's say 1mg) you will feel quite good and euphoric. Taken in consideration that your opiod tolerance is that low, 2mg of bupe might actually be too much for you and therefore could make you nauseous.

Edit: I read a few posts above myself and I'll have re-evaluate what i just said. If you happen to be hypersensiteve to buprenorphine 1mg is way too much to start with, unless 24h of binge vomiting sounds like a good time. I do think no one should take more than 0,5mg buprenorphine in a single dose unless being opioid tolerant.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Bump I wanna try this tomorrow guy's but im scared.

I had 2.5 mg methadone today...5 yesterday.

I wanna get high off my bupe tomorrow (long history with bupe prior to ever trying methadone so we don't need to talk about target doses...maybe just titration of the dose).

I'll have 10 mg of methadone also as a back up, my girl will leave out for me, to hopefully save me from a precipitated withdrawal if it happens (she's unaware....she just leaves the done out for me because that's my script).

I'll also have around 20 or 30 mg of valium.

Should I risk this to get my rocks off on some bupe?

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I doubt you'll catch much of a 'buzz' from bupe if you've been playing around with methadone.


I would start super low so you don't get PW. Or if you do, your receptors won't be totally blockaded.

Personally, I'd just save the bupe for when you run out of methadone.
From my experience, you won't get much of a buzz after using a potent full agonist like methadone.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

I doubt you'll catch much of a 'buzz' from bupe if you've been playing around with methadone.


I would start super low so you don't get PW. Or if you do, your receptors won't be totally blockaded.

Personally, I'd just save the bupe for when you run out of methadone.
From my experience, you won't get much of a buzz after using a potent full agonist like methadone.

Chickened out and had too much going on today to risk PWD.

But I've been rocked by bupe even after switching from heavier oxy habits than i have to methadone....after adjusting to the bupe of course then taking a bigger dose....so it wasn't a direct transfer, those suck if the oxy habit is heavyish

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Chickened out and had too much going on today to risk PWD.

But I've been rocked by bupe even after switching from heavier oxy habits than i have to methadone....after adjusting to the bupe of course then taking a bigger dose....so it wasn't a direct transfer, those suck if the oxy habit is heavyish

Prolly for the best! I would definitely only risk PWD on a day that you have to yourself.


You know, honestly I've had that happen to me before too.
Even after 5 days of using good heroin once, I took my subs and ended up getting a "high" from them, so much that I actually took a nap.

Other times tho, I'd get recklessly thrown into PWD. So I believe you. Just wonder why the variables, especially if bupe's intrinsic mu agonism is lower than any full agonist.
Maybe it's cause bupe is so potent that it covers more receptors than a full agonist normally would, not sure.

 

[Feretile]

Buprenorphine is often referred to as a 'competitive antagonist' or as a 'partial agonist'. The theory is that it has a high affinity for the opiate receptors but a low efficacy. Itl bind preferentially to 'classic' opioid agonists (high efficacy) like methadone or heroin or oxycodone. The thing is though, unless you take enough buprenorphine to occupy a majority of your opiate receptors, the methadone (or whatever you take) can bind to empty opiate receptors. This will tend to result in an additive effect.

I presume that a sufficiently high dose will compete with any other opioid and thus blockade the subjective (sought for) effects, but it would appear that it requires a high dose. I am of the opinion that the blockade effects are being overstated. I am old enough to remember when we were taught that methadone would blockade other opioids. Again, maybe at huge doses, but everyone prescribed methadone still seems to be able to get high off heroin.

I really do not understand what people get from buprenorphine. All I got was massive anxiety and that was 2mg/day QID. I did take my first huge, white, styrofoam-texture buccal tablet (8 mg) all at once and had to take a Valium. I had a panic attack. Truly awful stuff. Maybe I am in a minority? Maybe it's just me but if the choices were buprenorphine or nothing, I would go with nothing every time. I suspect the anxiety is because buprenorphine is an antagonist at the NOP (ORL1) receptor type. NOP agonists are anxiolytic in action.

I see that thienorphine is being touted as the next step in treating opiate misuse disorder. I have to admire it's design on a technical level. It's a refinement on buprenorphine in every way BUT if people take buprenorphine for fun, I suspect they will find thienorphine MORE fun. Although it's onset is slower, duration has been observed to be three times longer than buprenorphine in animal models. I suspect that with chronic dosing it would only need to be consumed once a week so supervised consumption would be more economically attractive to HR agencies.

Of course, thienorphine analogues that are full agonists are actually less complex in their synthesis. Imagine something that brings a morphine-like high that lasts a week. That could be a problem, especially since Chinese policy is to make specific compounds illegal one by one, not classes.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Buprenorphine is often referred to as a 'competitive antagonist' or as a 'partial agonist'. The theory is that it has a high affinity for the opiate receptors but a low efficacy. Itl bind preferentially to 'classic' opioid agonists (high efficacy) like methadone or heroin or oxycodone. The thing is though, unless you take enough buprenorphine to occupy a majority of your opiate receptors, the methadone (or whatever you take) can bind to empty opiate receptors. This will tend to result in an additive effect.

I presume that a sufficiently high dose will compete with any other opioid and thus blockade the subjective (sought for) effects, but it would appear that it requires a high dose. I am of the opinion that the blockade effects are being overstated. I am old enough to remember when we were taught that methadone would blockade other opioids. Again, maybe at huge doses, but everyone prescribed methadone still seems to be able to get high off heroin.

I really do not understand what people get from buprenorphine. All I got was massive anxiety and that was 2mg/day QID. I did take my first huge, white, styrofoam-texture buccal tablet (8 mg) all at once and had to take a Valium. I had a panic attack. Truly awful stuff. Maybe I am in a minority? Maybe it's just me but if the choices were buprenorphine or nothing, I would go with nothing every time. I suspect the anxiety is because buprenorphine is an antagonist at the NOP (ORL1) receptor type. NOP agonists are anxiolytic in action.

I see that thienorphine is being touted as the next step in treating opiate misuse disorder. I have to admire it's design on a technical level. It's a refinement on buprenorphine in every way BUT if people take buprenorphine for fun, I suspect they will find thienorphine MORE fun. Although it's onset is slower, duration has been observed to be three times longer than buprenorphine in animal models. I suspect that with chronic dosing it would only need to be consumed once a week so supervised consumption would be more economically attractive to HR agencies.

Of course, thienorphine analogues that are full agonists are actually less complex in their synthesis. Imagine something that brings a morphine-like high that lasts a week. That could be a problem, especially since Chinese policy is to make specific compounds illegal one by one, not classes.

If it thienorphine has a longer duration/half-life, one can assume it will build up in the body pretty quickly and tolerance & receptor occupancy will take away whatever fun there is.

At least that's how bupe is. With no tolerance bupe can be marginally 'fun', but once you've taken it a few days in a row, it merely feels like a sedative ( at least for me ).


I think more people go with bupenorephine over methadone because methadone requires daily clinic visits (in the US anyways), where as bupe doesn't. I walked out with a 30 day script the first day when I started bupe.
I'd prefer to be on methadone (hell, i'd prefer to just be on clean diacetylmorphine), but I wouldn't be able to put up with going to a clinic every single day.

As some one who's been on bupe for 5 years now, I can say, once the 'fun' is gone, it's gone. And it ends up being a shitty opioid because you don't feel anything when you dose (except shitty side effects).
IMO people need to "feel" their medicine working in order to stop cravings. Otherwise it's just a tease.