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[Mescaline Cactus Subthread] Peyote

thoughtsUnThought

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people seem more apt to recieve visions on peyote, possibly due to the alkaloid cocktail.

however, in traditional use, san pedro is known for just as profound and engaging visions.

i've never pataken of peyote, but have meditated with my small garden plenty :) i'm sure that when the time is right my brothers will procure visions for me.

but i've eaten san pedro and peruvian torch quite a bit. more than most others on this site i've encountered (def not to boast). i've been a student to the cactus for a few years now, and have learned much. i don't know that i got full 'visions' in my earlier use, but now with some experience with the teacher, and more experience in preparing myself to approach the teacher, I without a doubt recieve visions every time i partake.

having visions is a fairly shamanic practice in general, with or without psychedelics or cacti. if you're interested in the concept and application of reciving visions, or visioning, look into shamanic practices. my experience with these practices could easily coincide with my experience with having visions and lessons from the plants. through proper preparation and personal intent, one can initiate the recieving of visions as a means of reciving guidance or 'transcendence' (if you will :) ). this is not to say that avg joe non-shaman won't recieve visions, its just that in terms of probability of experiencing and integrating the concepts and lessons within visions it takes some level of aptitude as the observer of the visions to 'reel in teh fish' perse, and bring the visions ideas into the mind of the 'self' or 'identity'.

these ideas conincide with taoist practices as well, in terms of there being a seperation of the 'conscious knowledge' which floats atop the water of self and the 'real knowledge' or true knowledge which sits at the bottom of the pool. through understanding the concept of and placement of this real knowledge, one can integrate it's capactity into one's conscious understanding. in daoist practice one inverts the two, as a means of gettting them to combine into one (like the yin yang, two parts, but can be held as one), when they are combined there is no more conscious or real knowledge, but only innate knowledge and innate capacity.

'wizard of the four winds' is an awesome read about traditional peruvian san pedro shamanism, and could definitely help you to understand the 'placement' and the 'experience' of having visions. the book goes in depth not only into the ceremonial aspects of the shamanic practice, but also into the experience of the san pedro. it helped me a lot to identify and describe the more 'unique' aspects of the san pedro experience in comparisson to the other psychedelics.

sorry didn't mean to ramble, what i was geting at is, it takes a 'visionator' or a 'visualizer' to have visions. peyote might turn everyone into a 'visualizer' upon partaking, i couldnt say. but san pedro will evolve one into the same if that is meant to happen.
 
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grimble crumble

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thoughtsUnThought said:
people seem more apt to recieve visions on peyote, possibly due to the alkaloid cocktail.

however, in traditional use, san pedro is known for just as profound and engaging visions.

i've never pataken of peyote, but have meditated with my small garden plenty :) i'm sure that when the time is right my brothers will procure visions for me.

but i've eaten san pedro and peruvian torch quite a bit. more than most others on this site i've encountered (def not to boast). i've been a student to the cactus for a few years now, and have learned much. i don't know that i got full 'visions' in my earlier use, but now with some experience with the teacher, and more experience in preparing myself to approach the teacher, I without a doubt recieve visions every time i partake.

having visions is a fairly shamanic practice in general, with or without psychedelics or cacti. if you're interested in the concept and application of reciving visions, or visioning, look into shamanic practices. my experience with these practices could easily coincide with my experience with having visions and lessons from the plants. through proper preparation and personal intent, one can initiate the recieving of visions as a means of reciving guidance or 'transcendence' (if you will :) ). this is not to say that avg joe non-shaman won't recieve visions, its just that in terms of probability of experiencing and integrating the concepts and lessons within visions it takes some level of aptitude as the observer of the visions to 'reel in teh fish' perse, and bring the visions ideas into the mind of the 'self' or 'identity'.

these ideas conincide with taoist practices as well, in terms of there being a seperation of the 'conscious knowledge' which floats atop the water of self and the 'real knowledge' or true knowledge which sits at the bottom of the pool. through understanding the concept of and placement of this real knowledge, one can integrate it's capactity into one's conscious understanding. in daoist practice one inverts the two, as a means of gettting them to combine into one (like the yin yang, two parts, but can be held as one), when they are combined there is no more conscious or real knowledge, but only innate knowledge and innate capacity.

'wizard of the four winds' is an awesome read about traditional peruvian san pedro shamanism, and could definitely help you to understand the 'placement' and the 'experience' of having visions. the book goes in depth not only into the ceremonial aspects of the shamanic practice, but also into the experience of the san pedro. it helped me a lot to identify and describe the more 'unique' aspects of the san pedro experience in comparisson to the other psychedelics.

sorry didn't mean to ramble, what i was geting at is, it takes a 'visionator' or a 'visualizer' to have visions. peyote might turn everyone into a 'visualizer' upon partaking, i couldnt say. but san pedro will evolve one into the same if that is meant to happen.

thanks for that post tut, understanding that visions come to "visualizers" was very helpful and I understand what you mean. the thing that im really interested in though is this question. "do the alkaloids that peyote shares with L. diffusa, make it easier for visualizers to experience visions and perhaps even give people visions who are not trying to see a vision?"

I wish there were more studys on this since peyote is extremely hard to acquire
 

thoughtsUnThought

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yeah, i'm beside you in the questioning of that. like you said, there's not much information on the topic.

the other alkaloid comonly cited to be active is hordenine. but as with other psychedelic plant chemicals, much of hordenine's effects are said to be physical. so those other few hundred in the peyotes are likely accontable.
 

Mr Blonde

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You do know that you'll need more then one peyote to have a trip right?

I just didn't want you to be disappointed when it matures :)

From what I've heard they are pretty tough growers, that is they will survive despite what you do most of the time. Someone else will probably be able to provide advice on actually helping them grow, I don't know much about the subject myself.
 

Dextro 2C

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I've never really thought of visionary states, but now that it's brought to attention im interested.

How much san pedro should be eaten for a solid trip?
 

Ismene

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grimble crumble said:
I have read lots of peyote trip reports over the past couple of years and one thing that sticks out to me is people who experience visions while tripping on peyote. No not visuals or color enhancement or patterns but "visions" similar to a mini delirium then, go back to a mescaline trip as soon as the vision is over.

I think that might be the case if you believe heavily in stories you've read from indian ceremonies and are willing yourself to see "visions".

But I think most people would find mescaline to be quite a gentle psychedelic and anyone expecting to be blown out of the water with "visions" would be better off sticking with mushrooms. Or LSD.
 

nikol

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^ I agree. You also have to take into account the amount of buttons that are being eaten during the course of a peyote ceremony- it's a much large number than most people take recreationally, as the the ceremony lasts all night. Also, in ceremony, the entire purpose is to acheive the trance states (and the religious context of the trip helps reinforce that to a great degree).
I've taken it three times. I will admit that my stomach does not like holding the cactus and I've undergone some really intense vomiting all times. However, other than a noticably elevated mental plane, there was little visual change (and I am extraordinarily susceptible to visual disturbances when I trip).
 

Jabberwocky

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isn't it traditional at least in some native american circles to not swallow the cactus material but to just chew the plant for a few minutes and spit it out, thereby allowing sublingual absorption of the alkaloids?

perhaps I'm misremembering...
 

nikol

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samadhi_smiles said:
isn't it traditional at least in some native american circles to not swallow the cactus material but to just chew the plant for a few minutes and spit it out, thereby allowing sublingual absorption of the alkaloids?

perhaps I'm misremembering...

It's highly probable. I can safely say that I could NOT do that because I find it to pretty much be the most noxious tasting substance I have consumed yet.
Actually, as a side note, I have ingested it fresh, dried (in gelcaps), smoked (out of a bong, with marijuana), and cooked down into a syrupy tea. Gelcaps were the easiest to swallow but hurt the most when I became sick. The tea was by far the most disgusting method of administration (but the easiest to get rid of). Fresh was very bitter was not disgustingly so. The gelcaps were the most effective, because I didn't start becoming nauseated until the powder was actually getting into my stomach instead of right as the taste was in my mouth.
 

Ismene

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samadhi_smiles said:
isn't it traditional at least in some native american circles to not swallow the cactus material but to just chew the plant for a few minutes and spit it out, thereby allowing sublingual absorption of the alkaloids?

perhaps I'm misremembering...

I think you're misremembering samadhi. I don't think you could absorb enough of the mescaline just by chewing cactus.

Would saliva even break down cactus so you could absorb the mescaline?
 

Jabberwocky

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they took it by chewing the buttons up right? Just pop one in...I seem to remember a ceremonial part of the process where they spit it out too? hmmm...
 

nikol

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Oops, I just realized that I mis-read your original post, I thought you were implying that the cactus was held in the mouth for a length of time to allow absorption (hence my statements on taste).
Smoking was very, very subtle (which was mainly due to the small amount) but very there. As in, there wasn't a strong push from the substance, but it was there. You could either focus on it (which for me meant turning inward) or you could let it float in the background and have it just give gentle nudges. I think the gentleness of smoking it was, as I said, largely due to the fact that it was a small amount, because of how it compares to what other (older) friends of mine (basically what you would expect from smoking something versus eating it, that the duration was much shorter but far more intense).
There was no nausea and no physical stimulation, either. I actually started to drift off into an odd more-active-than-usual hypnagogic state towards the end (which was also probably strongly aided by the marijuana). I did fall completely asleep after awhile and took a nap for a couple of hours.
 

Ismene

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Are we certain the effect from smoking wasn't down to the placebomine?
 

thoughtsUnThought

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mescaline can survive the heating process and is capable of passing into smoke.

so if you think you feel some effect, and you just consumed a psychedelic, then maybe you placebo'ed yourself into feeling the threshold effects of the chemicals active inside yourself. (ie you smoked mescaline, and felt an effect) =D
 

Ismene

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nikol said:
Hell if I know. No need to be mean.

Not being mean nikol, smoking mescaline might work but I just wondered if it could be the placebomine too :)
 

nikol

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Supposedly it can be done... I will admit though, when you first responded I did second guess myself and I dashed off to Google and Erowid (as I previously admitted, regular old THC may have been more significant in my experience). My boyfriend, however, who smoked it with me, remained steadfast and everything he conveyed to me seemed to match up with what I could find (including what Erowid had to say about the different modes of administration for psychoactive cacti).
My experiences with smoking are not conclusive enough to make any factual statements, so, like everything else, this is limited to what can be covered with the "IMHO" disclaimer.
 
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Xorkoth

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Well, smoking of various phenethylamines works, even 2C-Xs although it's very dangerous to do so, so I don't see why mescaline couldn't work too, at a large enough dose. I think it would suck to smoke that much of a chemical though... and anyway it seems like a waste of mescaline. Did you smoke pure mescaline or an extraction, or did you smoke peyote? I can't tell from your post.

Either that or it was the placebomine. :) I'm curious now.
 
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