• MDMA &
    Empathogenic
    Drugs

    Welcome Guest!
  • MDMA Moderators:

MDMA + Taurine = Dehydration?

P

photochemist

Greenlighter
Joined
Dec 16, 2014
Messages
1
Hello everyone!

I've been lurking for a long time but have finally found something tricky to find an answer/opinion on. I have been thinking about the inclusion of taurine in a potential MDMA harm reduction stack. That said, there are theories that MDMA could cause glutamate excitotoxicity [1]. Taurine has been shown to regulate intracellular Ca++ levels and negate glutame excitotoxicity [2]. That said, would taking taurine along with MDMA cause issues with hydration/dehydration?


I did find an article comparing the diuretic effects of energy drinks containing caffeine only and ones containing taurine+caffeine. Taurine was not found to increase diuresis in this case. [3]



[1] https://etd.ohiolink.edu/ap/10?0::NO:10:P10_ACCESSION_NUM:ucin1353342344
[2] http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00726-006-0396-9
[3] http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00726-006-0363-5#page-1


Any thoughts?
 
Last edited:
I often drink big quantities of monster energy drink during a roll, which contains a lot of taurine. I never noticed any increase in dehydration, though that of course doesn't mean there isn't any
 
That said, there are theories that MDMA could cause glutamate excitotoxicity [1]
Click to expand...

Injecting 2-4 doses of 10mg/kg into rat brains is not exactly analogous to human usage. Unless you're injecting 600-800mg into your brain 2-4 times then you should take these studies with a pinch of salt! Specifically it says in the abstract:

It was found that two and four injections of MDMA (10 mg/kg, i.p.), but not one, significantly elevated the concentration of extracellular glutamate in the dorsal hippocampus
Click to expand...

One injection of 10mg/kg wasn't enough to cause a significant increase in glutamate. Needless to say that taking 100-300mg MDMA orally isn't going to either!

Taurine has been shown to regulate intracellular Ca++ levels and negate glutame excitotoxicity [2]
Click to expand...

It may well do so, but whether excitotoxicity is a problem for regular human usage I'm no so certain.

That said, would taking taurine along with MDMA cause issues with hydration/dehydration?
Click to expand...

I've done it numerous times with no problems. Yes, you will become more dehydrated but it shouldn't be an issue. Whenever you combine drugs that cause dehydration you will increase dehydration. You can always compensate by just drinking a little extra water.
 
Black said:
yeah, interspecies dosage scaling doesn't work like that with mdma.

and here's a nice paper to support this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1705495/
Click to expand...

I see. So what I'm struggling to determine is the implications of that study. That is, are rat doses higher/lower than human equivalents? From what I read it still suggested that human behavioural equivalents didn't cause 5-HT depletion.
 
essentialy, apart from showing why serotonin depletion doesn't mean neurotoxicity, they say that a human dose of around 1.5-mg/kg gives you comparable effects and plasma levels of mdma and its metabolites* as 1.5mg/kg in rats (although a single dose doesn't last quite as long with rats, so they dosed them repeatedly). you get serotonin and dopamin release, drug-discrimination, drug-reinforcement and behavioural effects at the same dose in rats and in humans. there's no reason we should think that >10mg/kg would be equivalent to 1.5mg/kg in humans.
they also show* that with this kind of dosing they can get these levels pretty close to what we see in humans (ricaurte's rhesus monkeys have huge levels of the metabolites, so they are not as useful as a model).

so, (long term = over 2 weeks) serotonin depletion is something that shouldn't occur with the doses we recommend, but can occur with doses upwards of 7mg/kg (about 500mg for the average 70kg human).



* together with their following paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2774984/
 
Last edited:
there's no reason we should think that >10mg/kg would be equivalent to 1.5mg/kg in humans
Click to expand...

Ok now I'm confused haha. That's what I essentially did in the first post? I converted the rat doses to roughly human doses. For instance, in the study initially linked by the OP, the rats were injected with 10mg/kg so I converted to a human dosage of 10mg/kg so roughly 600-800mg for 60-80kg humans.

so, (long term = over 2 weeks) serotonin depletion is something that shouldn't occur with the doses we recommend, but can occur with doses upwards of 7mg/kg (about 500mg for the average 70kg human).
Click to expand...

I always kind of expected this anyway. Despite popular belief around here, I've always believed that MDMA is reasonably safe and sustainable at the doses we recommend.
 
JWills20 said:
Ok now I'm confused haha. That's what I essentially did in the first post? I converted the rat doses to roughly human doses. For instance, in the study initially linked by the OP, the rats were injected with 10mg/kg so I converted to a human dosage of 10mg/kg so roughly 600-800mg for 60-80kg humans.
Click to expand...

your confusion confuses me :)
you took the same mg/kg doses for humans and rats and i backed up your statement with a paper (since the op most likely values scientific evidence behind our statements giving us sources in the original post).
 
yeah, interspecies dosage scaling doesn't work like that with mdma.
Click to expand...

I clearly misinterpretted that sentence to mean 'the analogy you posted doesn't work because rats metabolize MDMA differently to humans' instead of realizing you were agreeing with it and just backing it up with a reference haha. Confusion solved.
 
JWills20 said:
I clearly misinterpretted that sentence to mean 'the analogy you posted doesn't work because rats metabolize MDMA differently to humans' instead of realizing you were agreeing with it and just backing it up with a reference haha. Confusion solved.
Click to expand...

ah, now i see how it could be interpreted like that :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top