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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

MDMA + Speed - Effects/Neurotoxicity?

aiight, so from what i gather, its a double edged sword?
you take speed before pill, and it dulls euphoric effects, you take speed after and you increase neurotoxicity?
sigh
see my girlfriend doesnt usually roll as long as me... and when she comes down, say around 4.30-5.30 at a party, she gets bored and irritable
neither of us got into speed much, and we wanna get some for her so she doesnt pike out so early.... anyone got any ideas?
 
BT.. probably my slackness in not reading the article you posted but can you clarify this.
From my understanding neurotransmitters can only bind to receptors that have a matching receptor molecule in their membrane. So seratonin being bound to dopamine receptors would be like putting a square in a round hole I would have thought? Perhaps theres some other principles I haven't come to terms with yet tho :)
 
Neurotoxicity from taking ecstacy is thought to be caused by serotonin reuptake transporters transporting dopamine into the serotonin cells because there is not enuough serotonin in the synapse. Dopamine has been proven to be toxic to serotonin cells, and also dopamine is broken down into hydrogen peroxide inside the cell which is also toxic.

Im no scientist, but given that taking speed causes a large dopamine release, and taking MDMA also stimulates the release of dopamine, it is a logical assumption i think that in the stages after your serotonin has been depleted, there is a much larger ammount of dopamine in the synapse to be transported into the serotonin cell.

In other words, much like the effects of ecstacy are produced by releasing large amounts of serotonin into the synapse, nerutoxicity from speed+MDMA would be caused by large amounts of dopamine entering the serotonin cells after the serotonin has been depleted....

My $0.02 ...thoughts?
 
The above theory on MDMA neurotoxicity (dopamine entering serotonin reuptake transporters and being oxidised into hydrogen peroxide) is one of many different theories. If you want to read a summary of them all, then get Ecstasy: the complete guide by Dr Julie Holland. I have done a fair bit of reading on the subject, and so far no one is able to say which theory holds the most water (and I am not certainly not learned enough to choose one myself:\ ).

What I have taken away from all this reading is that there may be more than one factor that contributes to neurotoxicity. Temperature is clearly a factor, both for methamphetamine and MDMA. Oxidation also appears to play a role for both meth and MDMA. Exhaustion of energy in the brain cells might contribute too.

What we do know is that MDMA may be neurotoxic, and methamphetamine is neurotoxic. Combining the two would have to be more neurotoxic than having MDMA alone surely?

The use of antioxidant's may reduce neurotoxicity from both MDMA and methamphetamine. Minimising exposure to extreme temperatures should also help.
 
^^ vitamin C is an anti-oxidant yeah?
Is there any real difference regarding which anti-oxidant you use, or are they all just the same as far as your body is concerned?
 
Vitamin C is water soluble.

Vitamin E is fat soluble and a stronger anti-oxidant than C. I would use it over C.

Alpha-lipoic acid is the king, as it is stronger than both of them, and is BOTH water and fat soluble.


The ALA i order from the same place where i get 5-HTP from contains ALA, Vitamin C and Vitamin E!!

You cannot go wrong with that combo imo, and in reality it is something that all amphetamine and ecstasy users should utilise prior to and following using these drugs.
 
Everyone is talking about speed before MDxx, what are the effects if you take MDxx then speed?!?, i done it once and it just cleared my mind. But what does it actually do?
 
did u hear a kind of "tssssssssssssss" sound??

that was ur brain frying :)

i noticed someone said that meth IS neurotoxic. are u saying each time I have some speed i am doing damage? (and i mean in very moderate, 'wow i feel a bit charged now, and will sleep quite easily when i get home')
 
taking speed after mdxx tends to bring back a little bit of the peak, but not as intense. I think thats mostly due to the fact that serotin has been depleted though. it obviously wakes you up and gets you dancing though.

but its definately different to speed + mdxx.
 
hey im going to a big event in a few weeks and planning to have some md's aswell as some whizz. i'll have a few points and a couple of pills, whats the best mix....

speed then md or md then speed?

i did a search but it only really dealt w\ speed then md. looking for ppl's opinions who have tried both ways.

cheers.
 
first time i ever dropped (well 2nd actually 1st was a dud biccie), i had just done quite a bit of goey a short time beforehand, and maybe it was just the first time thing but i was still overcome by the mdma and the speed was definatly not masking anything

oh and i think it will increase neurotoxicity for sure, mixing 2 potentially dangerous chemicals, you would be crazy to think otherwise
 
If you believe the dopamine theory of neurotoxicity, then yes. But as babydoc pointed out, there are many other factors involved with the neuropharmacology of MDMA. While I have no doubt dopamine is implicated in some way with general neural damage associated with MDMA, tests have been done with genetically altered rats which demonstrate dopamine is not responsible for certain neural damage from MDMA.

I think that it is safer to assume mixing meth and MDMA is more potentially damaging then either alone, however (as indicated) low dosages with antioxidants etc, should be expected to reduce damage considerably.

If you want to attempt it, check out this thread for the contents and link to

Publication: Pharmacology and Clinical Pharmacology of MDMA

Released March-April of 2003, it's an excellent summary of more than 10 years of research.
 
it was my understanding that dopamine is not released by the MDMA molecule, but its a reaction to the huge seratonin release... so when your seratonin gets depleted then the dopeamine releasing stimulus is gone... this seems to fit what i feel when i keep on taking pills, once the feel good chemicals are gone, i get no 'speedy' effects anymore, just a headfuck. (MDA seems to give me the speedy goods though)

i am porbably wrong, but i definately think that speed + MDMA is alot more toxic to the old brain, with that much dopamine floating around its simple chemistry that the chance of it going to the worng place is increased greatly

what id like to know is how long does MDMA inhibit the formation of seratonin??? it would seem to make sense to drop your pill, then come down fully and get a bit of seratonin back before you have some speed, but how long does this take on a 120-160mg dose of MDMA???
 
it was my understanding that dopamine is not released by the MDMA molecule, but its a reaction to the huge seratonin release... so when your seratonin gets depleted then the dopeamine releasing stimulus is gone...
Click to expand...
I think this is a bit of a simplification of the way MDMA works... it's not as easy as MDMA = +serotonin, or meth = +dopamine. If I recall correctly, a rough guide is that it takes about a week to completely replenish one's serotonin after MDMA dosing.

BT :)
 
I really dont know if this has already been mentioned as a source of info for this topic during this thread, simply because i am too lazy and dont have enough time to read all ppls comments. So sorry if this has already been mentioned.

However i have agreed with what BT is saying for a long time and have kept all that in mind when i do speed and mdma since i looked at this slide show.

http://www.dancesafe.org/slideshow/slide19.html
 
yeah i guess thats a bit of oversimplification :) but i am hardly a neurologist :)

also i was wondering not how long it takes seratonin to replenish, but how long MDMA inhibits the formation of seratonin ... is it just wile you have MDMA in your system, or does it last for a few hours longer??? becuase i usually take speed about 5 hours after taking pills, hoping that some small amount of seratonin can be relaced and help prevent the free radical damage.
 
I think the only way to be surely safe on this is to dose more lightly on mdma so that u do not use ALL your seratonin in the first place. Then you wont have a problem. Another option that may work, i dont know for sure would be to try using prozac to protect ur seratonin receptors from the dopamine. Taking prozac an hour before your speed, so 4 hours after u take mdma wouldnt take much from the roll as you would be nearing an end to the roll anyway but it would protect from the dopamine damage i think. As the slideshow says, prozac takes over all other things (including seratonin) when the receptors decide what to take in... i think i am making sense, if not just tell me to shut it....

I am not sure but i think speed will still have its effects while ur on the prozac...

We really are all just speculating here tho.
 
I love that combo, and I'm aware that meth/speed just by itself has disasterous neurotoxity effects...I try and minimize it by taking powerful anti-oxidants, like alpha lipoic acid ...which reputes to work very well...but it hasn't shown effective for MDMA-induced neurotoxicity...

Taking speed/meth before a pill makes me peak my tits off
 
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