I know it's not good form to bump old threads - especially in this case where the old thread is a bit of an antique here at just under 4.5 years old. But I just checked if the original poster
chemicaldiscovery is still active on these boards, and he is listed as "Last seen" on March 4th, 2020, which proves he has been on and off the boards from 2016 when he posted this thread, through to March of this year. Since all of his threads were from almost exactly three years ago or earlier, I would guess he is an off and on reader, more than an active poster. Basically a lurker seeking education, which I would suspect includes any posts or threads he himself made in years in gone.
So...given that
chemicaldiscovery may be back here to see any replies/answers to this thread - and given that I also want those replies [lol], I decided to take the risk of bumping an old thread, that poses some reasonable, legitimate, and not overly discussed topic of the MDMA & Kratom combination.
{Dearest Moderators - please give me if any of my reasoning for bumping this aging thread and replying to it is off or inappropriate or against board rules in any rule}
My intuition tells me that since Kratom is NOT a drug, that Kratom, when combined with MDMA [or any drug], should not have any serious negative interactions or adverse effects - maybe mild things, but I would think that would be about it. Just like some people have stronger than average histamine releases or stomach nausea than others do from opiates; even people prescribed them for valid medical reason. For example, my mom had that histamine release / itching sensation after being prescribed morphine when she had her wisdom teeth removed. These would more appropriately be described as mild and evolved allergies to opium than serious medical safety issues.
My intuition and experience combining Kratom with certain actual drugs [again, Kratom is not a drug], would lead me to believe that Kratom and MDMA in combination should not produce a MEDICALLY DANGEROUS interaction.
On the other hand, I don't know what the exact mechanism action Kratom takes in the brain, so perhaps there is some sort of contraindication. And since we're talking about combining Kratom with MDMA here, I think it's important not to overlook the possibility of serotonin shock, because MDMA by itself is basically half of what you need to potentially get serotonin shock. MDMA and cocaine for example, poses this risk. Sure, maybe that risk is mostly a matter of high doses of at least one, if not both aforementioned substances - MDMA AND cocaine, AND in quantities that people probably should do individually, let alone do quantities of both of at that volume.
As for adding things to MDMA - maybe sipping beer - key word "sipping", and "beer", as in not beyond a level where you wouldn't be able to drive yourself home when your roll is over. So maybe 1-2-3 beer, or one an hour, throughout the night, pacing yourself in that way, or a way similar to that.
Perhaps with a combination of Kratom and MDMA, a person may experience increased hypertension since booth bring euphoric energy. Maybe there are other issues, and other things at play here that those who are interested in trying this combo should pay mind to. Perhaps combing the euphoria or Kratom with the euphoria of MDMA overwhelms the pleasure centres of the brain, and is just redundant, especially for those who just want to use rarely, and are concerned about their health, and concerned about damage they do to their brain chemistry, physiology, and the health of their bodies in general.
I may be confusing the "euphoria" of Kratom with the sedative effects of specifically Red Bali Kratom in doses over 5g, which I find euphoric/pleasant, in the case of pleasantly falling asleep, literally opiate-like [melting into my pillows], while masking what miniscule amount of withdrawal I have left completely. And now with the heavy lifting part of the withdrawal [the depression, including suicidal thoughts and losing the will to live, the miserably painful existence and feelings all over, the thought that I may have caused myself irreversible damage to my heart, or my mental health and mood - and not knowing which one was worse, in the case I did, and the skin-crawling and profuse sweating in my sleep - what little sleep I was even able to get, but waking up with my back DRENCHED in sweat to the point that I FINALLY would wake up, go to the bathroom, and literally dry myself off by soaking the towel in my back sweat, and hanging it back up on the towel wall pole].
With THAT level of withdrawal long behind me, just helping me with the post-acute withdrawal/depression effects that wax and wane [lately - mostly wane] with my lifelong genetically spectacular ability to easily fall asleep quickly, and to sleep for both a good time and for a long time, with all of this helped along with a little bit of Kratom here, and a little bit of Xanax there...I just don't see how a non-drug combined with a drug [specifically MDMA] could be dangerous, when one the two items combined is, as said, not a drug, and can be used alone in fairly high quantities. Someone replied to a post of mine on here recently about potential Kratom withdrawal; that he did find it uncomfortable, and especially so since he had to care for his three young children at home during the week he took the plunge to quit a two-year 75g daily Kratom habit cold turkey.
Maybe a negative but minor withdrawal from short-term Kratom use combined with an MDMA comedown could be a pretty depressing and/or anxious experience to go through...So I could understand why people may be disappointed with this combination - at least after the period of use is over. I just don't see how it could be medically unsafe, since only one drug is being used, and the other item is available over-the-counter here in Canada without an age restriction.
Is there a way to manage MDMA and Kratom used in combination in a way that would make it a nice, pleasant, AND safe combination?
The fellow Bluelighter who replied to one of my posts stated that he used 75 grams per DAY for TWO YEARS, and should be over about a week of withdrawal by now, if he stuck with it...he described his first five days of Kratom withdrawal being uncomfortable, but given the volume, and the length of time using, it really didn't sound like much. Not nearly as rough as opiate withdrawal, which is odd - given that, IMO, both have similar effects, or can - depending on Kratom type, the quality of the company selling it, and the various other measures which can be pretty inconsistent from one brand to the next. I found an excellent one here in Canada that I get from my friend's marijuana store, that he orders from BC. It has never done me wrong. But I understand quality varies. Maybe quitting something like six Percocets daily for a month would be on par with the withdrawal experienced from quitting Kratom, but over a much longer time period. That's not easy, but nothing like 10x OxyContin 80mg pills daily for two years or anything like that! Kratom is not an opiate, just "opiate-like", and, IMO, excellent for opiate/opioid withdrawal, or serious reduction in use for those not yet ready or able to quit opiates/opioids 100% [I know for sure that I AM ready to quit opiates completely...I may use once a year on my birthday in the future, or maybe once a month, or maybe seven times a year...but I have NO intention, and NO cravings or desire to use opiates in the future with any high level of frequency] - in my case, I've been using Kratom to get 100% clean, and successfully at that - I love it.
And now...here is a little story for you - a cautionary tale about mixing things, that does not relate directly to mixing Kratom with MDMA, but does act as a warning against why seemingly innocuous and safe things may not produce the best effect or night for you, if mixed together, or just that...we can get bad outcomes, even when don't expect them:
That said, I think if a person is rolling from using MDMA at an adequate/satisfactory/satisfying level, that that is really the only serotonin surge you should give your brain that day or night [and maybe for a while after that, so as to recover your happy brain chemicals, since I would not want anyone to lose them. Personally I have done MDMA maybe 20 times or so in my life since the first time I tried MDMA at age 23, on September 30th of 2005, where I live in Canada.
I ended up stupidly taking two STRONG "Purple Crown" ecstasy pills on that late night in late September, having never taken a drug in my life, having only drank alcohol for the first time two years prior, in 2003. That was at a formal army dinner...waiting forever for water [or ANYTHING] to be served, and then just drinking the red wine sitting in front of me [and everyone else] for some reason. Even having read in 1999 that alcohol causes dehydration, I just drank it. Maybe just to wet my lips, which most likely tricked my brain into thinking I wasn't thirsty anymore anyway. I drank a bit more that summer while doing another army training course in Kingston, Ontario, but drinking was never my thing.
So back to the ecstasy/MDMA story - I took my first half of a September 2005 "Purple Crown" ecstasy pill at 10:30pm, having been explicitly warned from the person who got them for me [who was warned the exact same thing by the friend she got them from] that these new - and, at $20 each, twice as expensive - pills were STRONG, and to only take half].
Starting the clock at 10:30pm, I waited an hour for the effects of the half pill of ecstasy to come on. When 11:30pm hit, I felt NOTHING. Not even the slightest tingle. As if the pill was completely bunk. It did nothing at all - not after an hour, anyway. So I took another half, which I felt was a reasonable next step, despite what I had been warned, and only because I was going to sit and wait another full hour, doing nothing but anticipating the effects of the now full $20 Purple Crown ecstasy pill I had taken half by half, over the previous 60 minutes to at least come on, even if only mildly [maybe these pills were more blue/purple - if that description brings back any old memories from 2005]. A female friend of mine who was 20 at the time had taken half of the same ecstasy pill a bit earlier [and then tried salvia for the first time], and after an unpleasant [and scary, from what I can recall] salvia trip, she said the half pill of ecstasy kicked in just nicely, overwhelmed any issues or after-effects caused by the salvia, and even helped her immediately forget any bad memories of trying it. That's the impression I got from talking to her, at least.
My friend's experience was the reason why I decided to have the second half of the ecstasy pill. I had been told one was strong, so to go with half. My female friend was three years younger than me, with much less muscle mass [I worked out with weights 3-5 days a week, and was probably a muscular 170- to 180-lb at the time, at 5'8.5". She was actually heavier than me, but that was due to her having a higher body fat percentage than I did. Given that I took my first half ecstasy pill at 10:30pm, and felt nothing at 11:30pm, and since my younger female friend had no issues having taken half, I didn't see any reason not to take a second half, making for one full ecstasy pill, and to wait another hour, when surely, the effects would be at least STARTING to kick in...right?
But no.
An hour seemed to me to be a reasonable time to wait before re-dosing [a term I didn't know at the time, but is obviously a straightforward concept]. Even as a layman who admittedly had possibly not even drank 24 beers since my first drink two years earlier, at age 21, and not yet smoked marijuana [I'll get to that shortly...], or even smoked a celebratory cigar at my university graduation four months earlier, or had a drag of a cigarette in my life, and had even avoided second-hand smoke all my life, literally from the moment I had the cognitive ability to be aware it was bad for your health, it SEEMED that waiting a full hour - if ZERO effects were felt - would be an acceptable time to re-dose. For that matter - it seemed like it would be a perfectly SAFE time.
Keep in mind that I felt NOTHING at 11:30pm, one hour after taking my first half ecstasy pill, and then after taking the second half at 11:30pm, I waited another FULL HOUR, and at 12:30pm...felt absolutely nothing!!!
So then at 12:30am or perhaps just shortly thereafter [I would think between 12:30am and 12:40am, after contemplating what to do, given that I must have gotten bunk pills, even though the friend who had half of one before her salvia trip was very satisfied with the half she took].
Feeling absolutely NOTHING, two hours since taking the first half of the ecstasy pill, and one hour after taking the second half...I was rather flabbergasted. I was sitting next to - almost arm in arm - with another friend who had taken a full one, and seemed quite happy about that. This made me think that maybe these pills were NOT so strong that only half was required...and after two hours and a full one ingested, it seemed to me that if anything, these pills were weak. I was just happy that my two female friends were pleased with the effects. The girl sitting next to me [both girls were 20 years old, and this one was 5'9", and probably 130-lb, or whatever weight a super fit 20-year-old 5'9" woman typically weighs - She seemed fine, and she had a second full one in her possession, and another half - the other half of the pill whose first half of was given to our mutual friend who had taken it prior to her salvia trip, and was glad she did, because she found the salvia to be unpleasant.
I decided, you know what...if I'm feeling NOTHING AT ALL AFTER TWO HOURS...maybe these pills are not double-dosed as I was warned about, but actually half-dosed. So I decided..."You know what? I'll just take that last whole one I have left. If STILL nothing happens...then whatever. I was ripped off].
And then...something happened, which to this day makes absolutely NO sense to me [especially given this was my first drug experience EVER]:
An additional HOUR AND A HALF passed. Yes - a full 90 minutes! Taking us to past 2am. Maybe around 2am.
A male friend had NO IDEA why two ecstasy pills did NOTHING for me whatsoever, after 3.5 hours had passed since I had my first half ecstasy pill.
That same male friend then speculated...he said that maybe this was just a muscle mass thing for me. Keep in mind that Mark Wahlberg in the movie FEAR [1996] was only around 165-lb - maybe 170-lb, but definitely not much more. He is also my height - 5'8'5". I can't imagine being under 160-lb at the time of this incident, as I was 178-lb just a month earlier...so I was probably just around the 170 mark, with a physique and muscle mass to body fat ratio very similar to Mark Wahlberg when he was in his mid to late twenties in the mid to late nineties. Being only 23, and given that most people didn't work out and even today, most people don't work out seriously - unfortunately, most don't work out at all - that aforementioned male friend of mine speculated that I wasn't feeling the ecstasy because the high level of fitness I was at probably just sort of prevented drugs from having an effect on me. Just a tip: "probably just sort of prevented" [a drug effect] is NOT the kind of logic you should run on when re-dosing potentially dangerous, or at the very least - extremely anxiety-inducing, drugs. Which I should remind you - I had never used before. Because I had never used ANY drug before the night being described here. My friend sort of hypothesized that because I was used to getting basically the bodybuilding equivalent of a "Runner's High" due to lifting weights, that my biochemistry just may not react to drugs. On that note - I will say that just about NO drug is suitable for me, because of my biochemistry. I DO feel the effects of drugs...but I despite most that I've tried, because they just don't do it for me. Oh well. No big loss, I guess.
I probably used salvia the following month [October], but I don't think I tried it by the day here. So no drugs before this soon-to-be disaster of a night.
Although not very scientific, what my friend said made some level of sense to me - after all, in Abnormal Psychology, which I took in university three years earlier, it was stated that men and women metabolize alcohol differently due in part to having average disparities in muscle mass as a ratio of body fat, and for having greater muscle mass, and greater muscle mass density, on average. Given I was a very dedicated "mini-bodybuilder" who had been resistance training using weights for five years, specifically for the goal of gaining muscle mass [hypertrophy], and was in great cardiovascular shape due to competing in sprinting and distance running from age 8-18, and being in the military for most of that same time frame, having honourably discharged just a year earlier, I just assumed that being a bit of an athlete who was above average in strength, speed, and in the amount of muscle mass that I carried, that maybe drugs simply wouldn't - or even possibly couldn't - affect me like they did other people.
So again, the same male friend that I mentioned above suggested that I smoke a marijuana cigarette [well...a joint, but I don't smoke marijuana, so I prefer using the classier terminology when talking about it].
So I decided since the MDMA was a dud [fake pills, I guessed, or at least the 2 of 5 that I kept for myself, giving the real 3 of 5 to friends, who used and enjoyed them on my dime - which was find, had the ones I had worked!] that I would smoke the marijuana/THC. So I did exactly that at maybe 2am or 2:10am - 2am being 3.5 hours since I took my first half ecstasy pill. I took a long haul of marijuana and held it in, just as my friend told me to do. It was my first time using marijuana, I trusted him, so I just did what he said.
And then.
It was at that moment that I lost my mind.
I really don't know exactly how this happened...sure, I had eaten a medium sized plate of "bodybuilding food" - one or two chicken breasts, one medium to large potato, and a small portion of broccoli. But I still have NO IDEA why it took 3.5 HOURS - if not slightly longer by a few minutes - for the ecstasy pills to kick in!!!
I was flipping out. I DESPISE MARIJUANA, incidentally. I take it and feel so paranoid, I ALWAYS think I am dying. And I have yet - in my maybe 50 or so times that I have done it - found any possible way to talk myself out of the absolute crippling level of paranoia that I get from taking it. Marijuana is a nightmare to me.
Marijuana did work to potentiate opiates for me - and actually initially helped me take HALF as much opiate, with TWICE the effect!!!!
I also think that's what happened to me with the marijuana and the ecstasy that night in 2005...the marijuana simply potentiated what was already too much ecstasy. Not lots and lots. But if one SINGLE pill was strong and half was recommended...and I took TWO...AND potentiated it with marijuana, which makes me EXTREMELY paranoid...well...let's just say I was sure I was going to die, and how embarrassing to die literally the first day I ever took drugs.
I ended up drinking 15x 500mL bottles of water. So...7.5 litres of water. Basically two gallons. All within the span of an hour.
Something seemed to be building up in my body about to explode, and I didn't know what, so I kept drinking more and more water, thinking I would dehydrate and die.
As it turned out, I just needed to puke...I THINK I needed to puke out the water only, which I had started drinking out of fear that I would dehydrate and die, driven by THC-paranoid. Perhaps some of the undigested ecstasy pill was puked out in the process...or maybe my body was just trying to puke it out because I took too much. More likely, I just started drinking water in a panic, feeling odd, fearing overdose, and eventually flooded myself with so much water that I had to puke it out - and I did.
Almost immediately after I was fine.
Later, when the marijuana wore off, the MDMA [or...ecstasy pill, which I assume was comprised of MDMA] settled nicely, and I had a nice night, and a bit of an afterglow into the next day...but was also sad while watching the movie Shallow Hal [2001], LOL.
I enjoyed potentiating opiates with marijuana for a month or so around November of 2018 to help me quit...but then I realized...it's great that I'm taking half as many opiates as before...but the goal is NOT to get twice as high. So then I went from being just as high on a quarter as many opiates, thanks to marijuana.
That was the ONLY reason I've used THC 50 times in my life. I did it 18 times between 2005 and 2013, and would have stopped forever, had it not been for the incredible potentiation effects it had, allowing me to greatly reduce opiates, and eventually quit them entirely. I don't know if marijuana helped as much as Kratom, or even Xanax...but it did help, due to that one single effect - potentiation, making fewer opiates stretch a lot farther.
I still wonder though...if you use marijuana, then some opiate, which then "overwhelms" the marijuana...maybe you only feel a potentiated opiate high...but wouldn't my brain still be going through all that marijuana-induced paranoia...only with it being masked by opiates, so I don't sense it, or feel psychologically overwhelmed by it? Considering my friend very likely got early onset schizophrenia from early teenage marijuana usage...these things concern me. But I digress. I digress a lot.
I only took that risk because I needed to quit opiates, as I had been addicted for over a year at the time...otherwise, the question above makes me wonder...and I really feel that marijuana use will lead me to eventually getting a form of psychosis.
What's the point of my story? Well - sometimes we mix things universally considered safe with other things, that themselves are *that* unsafe...and yet, horrifying things an happen, even if they are just mental.
Lastly...I took about 0.25g of intranasal MDMC since 1am last night. The current time is 4:30pm - so 0.25g of intranasal MDMC over a 15.5 hour period, pretty evenly spaced out. Hence, my long confession story about my first time using ecstasy, as this may be my last time using M-anything.
I used some of both Green Bali and Red Bali Kratom yesterday, but none today...because I hadn't researched combination effects with MDMA - or MDMC yet, and I would rather err on the side of caution!
Most people here seem to be the same way, and that's why I loved reading threads here over the years, and more recently - start posting here myself.
