Stimulants Low doses of amphetamine cause dysphoria for me

[arksenu]

I've tested this multiple times for recreation and I've found that any adderall dose under 30 mg leaves me feeling anxious (as if anticipating euphoria but not getting it), mildly depressed, and DECREASED performance (worse reaction time, slower thinking).

However, doses which I find recreational (30 mg+) completely eliminate those negatives and provide euphoria.

Does anyone else experience this? I only ask because I frequently hear of adderall causing anxiety at high doses, and that the solution for that would be to lower the dosage; in my case it would be the opposite.

 

[LOGan1314]

Everybody is different man. There are general guidelines/expectations in regards to drugs effects and humans' recations to them, but when it all comes down to it, everyone is different. I know people that do a shot of meth then eat a meal and go to sleep. I know people that shoot H and get spun/tweaked out beyond belief and don't stop moving around.

When I take a low/therapeutic dose of amphetamines they do what they are supposed to...keep me focused and calm.

 

[Scrofula]

Seems pretty reasonable to think most drugs have a recreational sweet spot.

You probably have some tolerance--the positive mood boost can't cover the jittery physical aspect at your prescribed dose. That'll keep happening with higher and higher doses, if you don't take breaks.

Or, the anticipation/expectation of what's coming causes it.

Either way, if you're prescribed this stuff--you know, to function better in the larger world--the answer is not to up your dose but to stop abusing it. Take a break and reset.

 

[candidsurprise]

I get exactly the same reaction with low doses of oral methamphetamine mate, it sucks. Below 10mg I feel anxious, depressed and restless. Push that it up to 20mg (moderate dose for someone with no tolerance) and it has the opposite effect. No anxiety, no depression, just a content and happy feeling.

It really sucks because I wanted to use low dose methamphetamine around 3 times a week for my severe depression. I thought low doses could get rid of my depression for the day in the way that it does for most people, without getting the recreational/addictive euphoria.

I don't know if this is legit but I think it probably has something to do with the way our bodies release the different neurotransmitters at different doses. Seems like at higher doses the ratio between dopamine (and slight serotonin) release and NE release is swung more in favour of dopamine and serotonin whereas at low doses they're not sufficiently released to offset the higher ratio of NE release.

As it stands I use ~20mg methamphetamine two times one week and then zero times the next week in a cycle.

 

[Scrofula]

If that regimen is working, I guess is it works, candid. But I wouldn't recommend meth at any dose for depression.

Then again, you've got a uniquely minuscule dosing system, less than the equivalent prescribed dosing (over two weeks) for a lot of ADD patients. That small dose of meth, lasting twice as long as the amphetamine in Adderall, might still interfere with sleep schedules. So I'm wondering if your dosing days are all-nighters? Through to dawn and into the next evening?

Sleep obv. affects mood, but it also seems like [that means it's my vague impression of stuff I read a long time ago and personal anecdote] carefully timed sleep deprivation has a positive effect. But please don't plan on scaling your system. Other than the first dose or two of a new session, there's no guarantee of good vibes at all. You can just as easily drop into anxiety without warning.

Neither amph or meth has any appreciable serotonin release.

 

[Jekyl Anhydride]

I don't know if this is legit but I think it probably has something to do with the way our bodies release the different neurotransmitters at different doses. Seems like at higher doses the ratio between dopamine (and slight serotonin) release and NE release is swung more in favour of dopamine and serotonin whereas at low doses they're not sufficiently released to offset the higher ratio of NE release.

It looks like you partially answered your own question but Scrofula is correct that the non-dysphoric, pleasurable dose will catch up to you in no time and and make this current problem seem docile in comparison.

 

[candidsurprise]

If that regimen is working, I guess is it works, candid. But I wouldn't recommend meth at any dose for depression.

Then again, you've got a uniquely minuscule dosing system, less than the equivalent prescribed dosing (over two weeks) for a lot of ADD patients. That small dose of meth, lasting twice as long as the amphetamine in Adderall, might still interfere with sleep schedules. So I'm wondering if your dosing days are all-nighters? Through to dawn and into the next evening?

Sleep obv. affects mood, but it also seems like [that means it's my vague impression of stuff I read a long time ago and personal anecdote] carefully timed sleep deprivation has a positive effect. But please don't plan on scaling your system. Other than the first dose or two of a new session, there's no guarantee of good vibes at all. You can just as easily drop into anxiety without warning.

Neither amph or meth has any appreciable serotonin release.

Thanks for the advice man. On those days I wake myself up earlier than normal and take the 20mg meth. I use a benzo (not good, I know) to put me to sleep in the evening. I only ever use benzos on those two days a fortnight though so I hope I'm in the clear as far as dependence goes.

You're totally right about sleep affecting mood. In fact I've found that it's one of the biggest influences on the severity of my depression. With poor sleep I'm dealing with waves of suicidality and anxiety the next day, with good sleep it's still there but it's not overwhelming in the same way.

As far as scaling up the system goes, I absolutely agree. I used to take meth more often (twice a week) but found that taking it every week left me just waiting for the next dose. I was getting psychologically hooked. Now that I've scaled it back I've got almost two weeks in between sessions (I usually do meth one day, the next day rest and then the day after meth again). Now during my time off I barely think about using, except when my depression is really really bad and then I get this desperate urge to take something to relieve it.

FWIW, I've noticed that sleep deprivation usually makes my depression noticeably worse. But then again I have atypical depression so the same observations aren't expected.

 

[N0 W4RN1NG]

...Neither amph or meth has any appreciable serotonin release...

This is patently false. The recreational isomer of methamphetamine in particular is a 5HT releaser in a capacity that is FAR from negligible. This is easily confirmed from hundreds of studies on methamphetamines binding affinities. "Regular" (N-dihydro) amphetamine has negligible serotonin effects, this is true. Methamphetamine works on serotonin in a significant way, though. This effect quickly falls by the wayside once a major methamphetamine tolerance is established, however.

OP: I have the same problem - BUT (and this is a BIG caveat) - when I first was taking amphetamine as prescribed, almost 2 decades ago, amphetamine worked great at low dosages and had no dysphoria.

These days, anything under 60mg of d-amphetamine will just leave me irritable and CRAVING amphetamines. This is after years and years of abusing Herculean doses of various amphetamines and cathinones. There is a medical phenomenon known as "amphetamine sensitization". There are many changes in the way the brain reacts to amphetamines after this effect has manifested, but I will not go into all of them here. Look it up for a fascinating read. However, dysphoria from low doses of amphetamines like you describe is one of the things this effect can cause. How long have you been using amphetamines? What diagnoses do you have, and what other pharmaceuticals and supplements do you take?

Amphetamine sensitization is almost exclusively induced by recreational abuse, but also sometimes from proper usage for a VERY long course of therapy. It is now the major consensus among most psychologists, psychiatrists, and neurologists that amphetamine therapy [for psychiatric maladies, at least] should include at least one "vacation" day per week, where the the patient does not take their prescribed amphetamines.

One promenint theory involves TAAR1. Amphetamine is a major ligand for TAAR1, in addition to things like the DAT and NET. In theory, the TAAR1 receptor, which is believed to play a role in whether a compound is a monoamine releaser or merely a reuptake inhibitor, has a "breaking point". By this, I mean that after a certain amount of activation, an irreversible change occurs.

 

[Scrofula]

I'll happily stand corrected with references, No Warning. The two drugs do interact with serotonergic neurons, but any release is dwarfed by the action on dopamine and norepinephrine systems. I'll be interested to hear if that model's been revised.

Anecdotally, I can share that meth and amph use with or without SSRI is indistinguishable.

Now I'm not saying serotonin isn't involved in chemical equilibrium resettling with chronic meth use--all of these systems feedback on themselves, and an increase in one can cause a decrease in another. Just my opinion, but I don't think ratios of NE to 5-HT, changing with dose, could explain the mood difference, mainly because I don't think there's any 5-HT release.

 

[Jekyl Anhydride]

mainly because I don't think there's any 5-HT release.

How does methamphetamine affect serotonergic systems?

Because of the widespread circuirtry, activation of the serotonin system affects large areas of the brain. Methamphetamine affects the serotonin systems in several different ways. . One study found that methamphetamine promoted the increase of serotonin at a rate of three times greater than amphetamine, its parent compound (Kuczenski et al., 1995). Serotonin in the synaptic cleft builds up in two ways: 1) inhibiting the reuptake process and 2) reversing the transport of serotonin.

https://www.macalester.edu/academics/psychology/whathap/UBNRP/meth08/biochemistry/serotonin.htm

 

[Speed King]

Seems pretty reasonable to think most drugs have a recreational sweet spot. You probably have some tolerance--the positive mood boost can't cover the jittery physical aspect at your prescribed dose. That'll keep happening with higher and higher doses, if you don't take breaks. Or, the anticipation/expectation of what's coming causes it. Either way, if you're prescribed this stuff--you know, to function better in the larger world--the answer is not to up your dose but to stop abusing it. Take a break and reset.

^^ FTW. Taking amphetamines medicinally is a different experience then recreational. You want to zoom, take a 30 mg or less dose of amphetamine then smoke a bowl of herb 45 minutes later. When the weed and speed hit at the same time, you will feel good. I heard, I wouldn't know The breaks are important. I take a similar medication. On days I am relaxing like the weekend, I will not take any for 1 or 2 days. If herb is present, I could take a break for a month. There are too many main things to say. Your goal is to keep your self healthy, hydrated and a low tolerance. Amphetamines are serious business. They will work for a long time if you read up on tolerance prevention and nutrition. Pardon me if you already know this, but reminders are not a bad thing. There are other substances you can take, but if you want a buzz, vape some dank bud and save the amps for when you need it the most. I have been taking amps for years (prescribed). They still work, I've never run out early and I have not had to raise the dose. Read some mega threads. That will give you a better idea of what your using. Stay safe.