Supplements Losartan on Steroid Cycle

TrenE

Bluelighter
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Hello,


recently CFC told about the usage of the Losartan (angiotensin II type 1 receptor (AT1) antagonists) in steroid cycles due to its beneficial effects:

- anti-fibrotic effect
- reduced risk of heart hypertrophy
- reduced risk of high blood pressure
- few negative sides

Heare are some studies.

Chronic, supra‐physiological doses of nandrolone decanoate and exercise induced cardio‐toxicity in an animal‐model study
This study shows, unequivocally, that the blockade of the renin‐angiotensin system (RAS), and particularly of angiotensin II type 1 receptor (AT1R) by losartan, prevents QT prolongation and that the administration of chronic, supraphysiological doses of ND induces parasympathetic autonomic dysfunction.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/apha.12093

Anabolic steroids induce cardiac renin-angiotensin system and impair the beneficial effects of aerobic training in rats
CVF and LV hypertrophy were prevented by losartan treatment
https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpheart.01251.2006

Anabolic steroid associated to physical training induces deleterious cardiac effects.
Both losartan and spironolactone inhibited the increase of CVF and collagen type III. In addition, both treatments inhibited the increase in left ventricle-angiotensin-converting enzyme I activity, CYP11B2, 11β-HSD2, TGFβ, and osteopontin induced by the ND treatment.https://europepmc.org/abstract/med/21407130

AT1 and Aldosterone Receptors Blockade Prevents the Chronic Effect of Nandrolone on the Exercise-Induced Cardioprotection in Perfused rat Heart Subjected to Ischemia and Reperfusion
The nandrolone-induced changes of AT1-R, MR, and KATP subunits expression was normalized by the losartan and spironolactone treatments.https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10557-013-6503-8

Mechanisms underlying the cardiac antifibrotic effects of losartan metabolites
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5291109/

My current opinion is using 25mg Losartan ed on heavy cycles >1g of steroids with more than one compound while controlling blood pressure that it does not get to low.

- What do you think and what is your experience?

- Would you suggest using it only on heavy cycles >1g of steroids with more than one compound (test, deca/tren/anadrol) or also on low dose (500mg test) and single-compund cycles (1000mg test).

- What would be the recommended starting dosage and intake protocol even if your blood pressure is in range? It may be harmful to reduce it to much.

- Do you think there could be a general health benefit of taking low-dose Losartan (maybe like low dose of aspirin) regardless of taking AAS?

Thanks.
 
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CFC

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Unfortunately there's never going to be any official dosing guidelines for the treatment of AAS side-effects with ~sartans.

100mg losartan is a pretty standard dose of that compound, and the dose I use.

Telmisartan is generally the more popular of the class for bodybuilders because of the additional PPAR-γ agonism, which is specific to telmisartan. Whether that agonism has any real-world benefits at standard doses, I'm not sure, but the potential is there.
 

TrenE

Bluelighter
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Wanted to add this helpful post of CFC regarding the Losartan topic.

I wouldn't personally use an ARB (or any elective drug) when not on cycle unless you have a pre-existing issue that needs it. Just do your best to live a healthy lifestyle as much as you can off-cycle and you should be fine.

As for when to start, AAS appear to induce the RA system (renin-angiotensin) pretty substantially even at relatively low doses (eg around 30% at just 160mg/wk). So bascally any dose over physiological/TRT and I'd introduce it, but for TRT at genuinely physiological doses you'll be fine without.

As mentioned above, guidance on aspirin has been changed recently. But not because it doesn't work. Rather, because in vulnerable (ie generally elderly) populations, the risk of bleeding can potentially outweigh any beneficial anticoagulant effect.

For your typical AAS using bodybuilder, the risk of severe bleeding on a low dose is rather smaller (especially given the high haemoglobin levels AAS tends to cause). But if you have an ulcer or had a gastrointestinal bleed before, you may want to exercise caution or possibly avoid altogether.

If you do decide to use, go with the lower dose 75mg (or 81mg) if you can find it, and again, if otherwise healthy, I'd personally only use while on cycle, not off-cycle. Though actually I don't use aspirin myself and instead rely on keeping my Hb levels in check and using the ARB and other supps and staying well hydrated, but it is still an option if you're the cautious type.

Regarding Losartan, 100mg is unlikely to lower your blood pressure excessively (and these days, you can't really have 'too low' blood pressure as long as you're not developing hypotensive symptoms like dizziness). But by all means work your way up if you feel more comfortable doing that.
On 1g - 1,5g AAS (testosterone + trenbolone/nandrolone + drostanolone) I take 50mg Losartan + 100mg Aspirin.

I guess many of you cruise at dosages over physiological/TRT level (e.g. 250mg - 500mg testosterone only per week). As CFC states also at this dosages and without further stack roids you should take Losartan.

Does it make sense to adjust the dosage of Losartan to the dosage of AAS (testosterone and/or other AAS)? For example: On 500mg testosterone per week taking only 25mg Losartan, if taking 50mg Losartan on 1g-1,5g AAS (testosterone + other AAS)?
 

Serotonin101

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I would just keep the dose steady as I believe it's been shown to reverse changes that may already have occurred. So basically while on its a preventative and while off it could possibly reverse what has been already incurred.
 

TrenE

Bluelighter
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Thanks, but did I get it right? As conclusion while on AAS we should keep the dosage of Losartan steady
- regardless if we are on heavy cycle or cruise dosage (500mg testosterone) and
- regardless if we are taking testosterone only or also other AAS.

Only if we do not use AAS anymore or if we use testosterone on TRT levels we should stop taking Losartan.
 

TrenE

Bluelighter
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Hello,

I have been cruising for 4 weeks (250mg testosterone per week). As this is a dosage near to the TRT/physiological dosage I have stopped taking 50mg Losartan for 2 weeks to have a break from all the additional medications.

While blasting I had a good blood pressure at ~135/85. I do not measure blood pressure everyday, but today I wanted to measure it, because I am off Losartan and was amazed: 150/93.

My weight is [email protected]″10.

Maybe it is just an outlier so I will continue to measure more frequently tomorrow, but this leads me to following questions:

1) Is there a rebound effect when stopping the intake of Losartan?
2) Should you (therefore) taper off the intake of Losartan and if yes how should this look like?
3) Is 250mg testosterone per week still to high to stop taking Losartan?

Thanks you very much.
 
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CFC

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I'd take a few BP measurements at different times of the day (morning and night is usually good).

However 250mg/wk isn't physiological, unless you have serum level tests to prove it. For most, that would take you considerably above range. And as I said in one of the posts you quoted earlier, at just 160mg/wk the RA system was boosted c.30%.
 

TrenE

Bluelighter
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Thank you @CFC I should take your advice more seriously. I will take Losartan from any dosage above physiological or leave it on physiological dosage:
The USA FDA recommended starting dose for male hypogonadism is 50 to 400 mg IM every 2 to 4 weeks.
The Endocrine Society Clinical Practice Guidelines for testosterone therapy suggest an alternative of either 75 to 100 mg IM weekly or 150 to 200 mg IM every 2 week.
Not exclusively regarding the prevention of an increase in renin activity it also seems necessary for me in terms of blood pressure to take Losartan on 250mg/wk as yesterdays and todays values are on average 153/85.

While searching for your mentioned data regarding the boost of the RA system - maybe you have the source available, I'd appreciate, if you would post it - I found following study regarding plasma renin activity (PRA) and systolic blood pressure (SBP) which also supports the advantage of taking Losartan while using testosterone above physiological levels, especially if your systolic blood pressue is increased.
Higher PRA levels demonstrated increased risk for ischemic heart events and congestive heart failure and a trend toward higher mortality among individuals with SBP ≥ 140 mmHg but not among those with SBP < 140 mmHg.
What do you think about tapering off Losartan, when you go on physiological dosages of testosterone and want to stop taking Losartan? How should the tapering off scheme look like to prevent a rebound effect?
 
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Genetic Freak

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Thank you @CFC I should take your advice more seriously. I will take Losartan from any dosage above physiological or leave it on physiological dosage:


Not exclusively regarding the prevention of an increase in renin activity it also seems necessary for me in terms of blood pressure to take Losartan on 250mg/wk as yesterdays and todays values are on average 153/85.

While searching for your mentioned data regarding the boost of the RA system - maybe you have the source available, I'd appreciate, if you would post it - I found following study regarding plasma renin activity (PRA) and systolic blood pressure (SBP) which also supports the advantage of taking Losartan while using testosterone above physiological levels, especially if your systolic blood pressue is increased.


What do you think about tapering off Losartan, when you go on physiological dosages of testosterone and want to stop taking Losartan? How should the tapering off scheme look like to prevent a rebound effect?
You're overthinking things again, 100mg is the standard dose of losartan.. Its use when injecting exogenous testosterone is not just for lowering hypertension, it is also advised for its anti fibrotic effects on myocardium. (Makes heart muscle more flexible, as AAS can increase thickening and stiffness)..
 

TrenE

Bluelighter
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Guess your right, I am overthinking this topic to much.

Just thought of a cruising phase of 250mg/w without any additional medications to give a break to the body. But I have got it that this dosage is still to high to do without Losartan.

And also it seems that I should upper the dosage to the standard dosage of 100mg. Just was concerned about potential sides and/or a to low blood pressure and was curious if there is an AAS dosage to Losartan dosage relation.
 
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