Liposomal MDMA?

[Vlad622]

I've read about liposomal delivery systems as a way to increase the bioavailibility of certain supplements like Vitamin C. Basically you encapsulate the active ingredient inside fat molecules so that it can enter the bloodstream before being destroyed in the stomach. With vitamin C, it is supposed to increase bioavailibility from 18% to 90%.

I found a number of DIY recipes to create liposomal vitamin C at home. An example. Given that MDMA also comes in a hydrophilic powder, couldn't you just substitute it for the vitamin C powder in this recipe?

I'm curious if this is a possible ROA for MDMA and if it would make a significant impact on bioavailibility, side effects, overall experience, etc.

 

[epic11]

Interesting take, let us know what you find. Its so simple, im surprised ive never heard of it.

 

[jose ribas da silva]

if mdma is a hydrophilic powder, it cannot be encapsulated in a liposome, which is made to encapsulate very hydrophobic molecules.

MDMA molecule itself is not hydrophilic but it is not so hydrophobic as well.

I do not know which powder is this powder...

 

[Vlad622]

Interesting take, let us know what you find. Its so simple, im surprised ive never heard of it.

Yeah, I looked around forums and google and was surprised to not find anything. Most likely case is that I'm missing something obvious and it doesn't work, but if not, I may try it out myself -- obviously at a low dose to compensate for potential increased bioavailibility.

if mdma is a hydrophilic powder, it cannot be encapsulated in a liposome, which is made to encapsulate very hydrophobic molecules.

As far as I'm aware, MDMA.HCL (which is what MDMA powder is) is hydrophilic. Also, it seems liposomes work with both hydrophilic and hydrophobic substances: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liposome#Mechanism . There are different types of liposomes, so I'm not sure if they are all compatible with both, but given that both Vitamin C and MDMA powder are hydrophilic, I would naively assume that MDMA should work in the same liposome.

 

[jose ribas da silva]

this molecule is not hydrophilic

 

[jose ribas da silva]

Yeah, I look around forums and google and was surprised to not find anything. Most likely case is that I'm missing something obvious and it doesn't work, but if not, I may try it out myself.



As far as I'm aware, MDMA.HCL (which is what MDMA powder is) is hydrophilic. Also, it seems liposomes work with both hydrophilic and hydrophobic substances: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liposome#Mechanism . There are different types of liposomes, so I'm not sure if they are all compatible with both, but given that both Vitamin C and MDMA powder are hydrophilic, I would naively assume that MDMA should work in the same liposome.

liposomes are a kind of detergents, they are made to solubilize HYDROPHOBIC molecules. Why should I decrease the polarity of a hydrophilic molecule by embedding it into a liposome? By doing so, I would be decreasing its solubility, but the intention of a liposome is to increase the solubility... it would be exactly the contrary

 

[jose ribas da silva]

If the molecule is hydrophilic, it is already soluble, it is not necessary a liposome to solubilize it

 

[Vlad622]

If the molecule is hydrophilic, it is already soluble, it is not necessary a liposome to solubilize it

I believe liposomes increase bioavailibility through a different mechanism. From wikipedia: "the natural encapsulation of lypophilic and hydrophilic nutrients within liposomes has made for a very effective method of bypassing the destructive elements of the gastric system and aiding the encapsulated nutrient to be delivered to the cells and tissues."

The direct comparison would be with Vitamin C, which is also hydrophilic, yet yields 4x more bioavailibility with a liposome.

 

[Swim15]

this molecule is not hydrophilic

View attachment 14787

Yes it is - HCl being key

 

[Swim15]

If the molecule is hydrophilic, it is already soluble, it is not necessary a liposome to solubilize it

You can use liposomes with hydrophilic and hydrophobic compounds.

In the case of vitamin c, only so much will be absorbed typically because as dose goes up, absorption goes down. The goal of liposomes is to have it all taken up via the lymphatic system as a fat soluble liposome and increase delivery while also decreasing breakdown.

To my knowledge the oral bioavailability is not known but it would likely increase it a significant percentage.

 

[jose ribas da silva]

You can use liposomes with hydrophilic and hydrophobic compounds.

In the case of vitamin c, only so much will be absorbed typically because as dose goes up, absorption goes down. The goal of liposomes is to have it all taken up via the lymphatic system as a fat soluble liposome and increase delivery while also decreasing breakdown.

To my knowledge the oral bioavailability is not known but it would likely increase it a significant percentage.

Yeah, I looked around forums and google and was surprised to not find anything. Most likely case is that I'm missing something obvious and it doesn't work, but if not, I may try it out myself -- obviously at a low dose to compensate for potential increased bioavailibility.

As far as I'm aware, MDMA.HCL (which is what MDMA powder is) is hydrophilic. Also, it seems liposomes work with both hydrophilic and hydrophobic substances: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liposome#Mechanism . There are different types of liposomes, so I'm not sure if they are all compatible with both, but given that both Vitamin C and MDMA powder are hydrophilic, I would naively assume that MDMA should work in the same liposome.

In your example, the goal of the liposome is not solubilization, it is to deliver the substance to the target place by protecting it through the body's natural barriers.

 

[jose ribas da silva]

Yes it is - HCl being key

It sure is not.

See, there is an aromatic ring linked to a non-flexible ether-like grouping and to a relatively large carbonic chain. HCl will donate a hydrogen ion to the amine group, therefore forming NH3+. The formation of this extra charge will increase the MDMA's dipole moment but it will not make it hydrophilic, since the rings and the carbonic chain will still be preponderant (which does not mean that it will not be soluble in recreational concentrations)

 

[Phobos]

MDMA oral bioavalability is pretty good and the stomach does not destroy it, as MDMA.HCl is made by adding hydrochloric acid to MDMA freebase.
You may get a better bioavailability but if absorption speed is slow you will experienced diminished effects.
If you are looking for better oral bioavailability just take some sodium bicarbonate with your MDMA.

 

[Vlad622]

MDMA oral bioavalability is pretty good and the stomach does not destroy it, as MDMA.HCl is made by adding hydrochloric acid to MDMA freebase.
You may get a better bioavailability but if absorption speed is slow you will experienced diminished effects.
If you are looking for better oral bioavailability just take some sodium bicarbonate with your MDMA.

Makes sense. If the bioavailibility is already fairly high, it's probably not worth the increase in bioavailibility in exchange for slower absorption. Not to mention all the inconvenience involved with making it liposomal, storing it, transporting it discreetly, etc.

 

[Swim15]

It sure is not.

See, there is an aromatic ring linked to a non-flexible ether-like grouping and to a relatively large carbonic chain. HCl will donate a hydrogen ion to the amine group, therefore forming NH3+. The formation of this extra charge will increase the MDMA's dipole moment but it will not make it hydrophilic, since the rings and the carbonic chain will still be preponderant (which does not mean that it will not be soluble in recreational concentrations)

Yes lol I understand organic chem well but clearly you don’t or haven’t looked up the solubility and haven’t dissolved any in water yourself (it’s quite easy). It’s in a salt form and is very soluble in water - the non salt form would not be.

 

[Vlad622]

Makes sense. If the bioavailibility is already fairly high, it's probably not worth the increase in bioavailibility in exchange for slower absorption. Not to mention all the inconvenience involved with making it liposomal, storing it, transporting it discreetly, etc.

Since the thread is already bumped, I'll just add that it appears liposomes do not cause slower absorbtion, at least with Vitamin C. So this method should still work. I'm considering trying it for my next roll. I'll post a new thread if I do.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I've read about liposomal delivery systems as a way to increase the bioavailibility of certain supplements like Vitamin C. Basically you encapsulate the active ingredient inside fat molecules so that it can enter the bloodstream before being destroyed in the stomach. With vitamin C, it is supposed to increase bioavailibility from 18% to 90%.

I found a number of DIY recipes to create liposomal vitamin C at home. An example. Given that MDMA also comes in a hydrophilic powder, couldn't you just substitute it for the vitamin C powder in this recipe?

I'm curious if this is a possible ROA for MDMA and if it would make a significant impact on bioavailibility, side effects, overall experience, etc.

Since rectal administration is up to 99% bioavailable (most sources cite at least 90%), why go to the trouble of trying to lipo encapsulate MDMA?

 

[FFTBinScramblemaster512]

normally wouldn’t resurrect after 6months but just saw somebody else did so hopefully i’m ok. am very interested in the general idea OP is onto, and a bit more broadly involving nanoparticles and their ability to permeate the BBB by reducing a substance to that threshold level. was just reading a study, very new,— with these things now they can directly replenish dopamine in the brains of people with Parkinson’s because L-Dopa in a nanoparticle with these “microbubbles” being generated in an IV simultaneously can get it straight in there (it doesn’t work very well currently and i believe it has to do with permeation of the bbb may be wrong, and they can’t inject it directly into the brain on a regular basis due to complications & quality of life). this study / discovery was sometime in the past year and i found it today. So as Parkinson’s is a disease of too little dopamine in the brain (that has been known to afflict people who used a lot of MA and other dopaminergics), I, as a person who has used copious amounts of these things, am extremely interested in this research. Still wrapping my head around it and the connection between these nanoparticles and the liposomals OP was talking about is that liosomals are one *kind* of nanoparticle, of which i believe there are many but i keep seeing 3 or 4 main ones listed in the research. Sorry it took so long to get here but my questions are (and hopefully the one who obviously had the education in this field is still watching the thread as i am just a dude who reads about pharmacology for fun) - 1) The systems, machines and materials necessary for creating these drug delivery systems with nanoparticles are slightly outside my price range right now (i’d guess they’re in the 10’s of millions), do you think there are other ways to achieve the result, potentially going way off-label, if one has a bit of experience in recreational organic chemistry and a sound / rational mind? and i’m not asking how, just if you think it’s hypothetically possible? 2) This isn’t a question directed toward anybody but more like an open thought…. the implications of a method to force a drug across the bbb, or to force more of a drug across the bbb than currently gets across, are profound. gonna save millions of lives and get the wheels turning in a lot of peoples’ heads “whoa maybe instead of taking tums before adderall i could evaporate it in a solvent then put them in a solution cast in substrate then throw em in one of these nano thingies and maybe i could get an even better buzz.” (this is not my intention but gotta admit considering the possibilities those general types of intentions pop up). if i could just have em put the L-Dopa in NP’s and give me a treatment course with measured doses to replace the 300 megatons of it that i’m missing and basically function at the level i did before 30 years of hardcore stimulant abuse that’d be fuckin amaaazing. not gonna happen. so anybody got any thoughts on that, or educated replies, or educated corrections even if they come with faint notes of an academic superiority complex, or completely uneducated comments about subjects unrelated to this post, im all about it. learn me. and i’ll regurgitate back whatever i read in these studies on mice and the occasional human and share the prototype for my nanoparticle machine the CATHINONE POTENTIATOR 857.

p.s been coming here about a decade sporadically and almost every day for the past year as was dealin with some shit and you guys have taken that harm reduction rebrand and done a great thing with it. can honestly say this place helped me quit the 2nd worst addiction of my life. so thanks mods and everybody else, and i think he’s banned but thanks acklack for the case study on how amphetamine psychosis disables self awareness in the most gripping first hand story of drug addiction i’ve ever read.

Edit: being a regular lurker i’m aware this is a prime candidate for getting moved to another sub, just realized that. this was the thread that grabbed me when i searched what i was looking for on BL so had to iron while the strike was hot. do what u gotta do