Kratom with Citric Acid or Antacid?

chicken hoagie

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I posted this in general drug discussion, but I figured I may be able to get a more technical response here, since this is in regards to pharmacokinetics.

It appears as though there is conflicting research regarding the potentiation of most drugs concerning whether to use alkaline substances to prime the stomach or acidic substances to break substances down faster.

So as we know, citric acid can help break down plant matter to its finer constituents, which helps with quicker absorption of said constituents..but taking antacids can help absorb MORE of the substance in question so that stomach acids don't destroy the compounds we are trying to absorb..

So my question is, can anyone give me some insight on to what would work better, or if there is a method to all of the acidic vs alkaline madness?
 

CoastTwoCoast

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Not sure...people say that grapefruit juice makes kratom more potent.
I used to take antacids with Adderall at one point, but that became a nasty habit. It did make it stronger, but not in a good way, it made the side effects more noticeable.

I guess when it comes to kratom, I don't really think about the acidic factor. I kinda prefer it with pop, but that helps my tummy better while taking it.

I'm interested in this answer too. If people start saying it's better to have a neutralized PH, I might start taking a glass of water with 2 teaspoons of some apple cider vinegar in it beforehand.
 

Mr.Deeds

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Couldn't you acidify the kratom with citric acid in a tea, let it soak while you take an alkalizing agent to basify your stomachs ph, then drink the tea once the alkalizing agent kicks in?
 

chicken hoagie

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Couldn't you acidify the kratom with citric acid in a tea, let it soak while you take an alkalizing agent to basify your stomachs ph, then drink the tea once the alkalizing agent kicks in?
I was actually thinking of doing just that as a matter of fact..that could be the best way to go about it. Though I guess I was aiming for the more general concensus of looking for the best way to consume the plant leaf whole in capsules..but yes, if I want the best results..making a sort of tincture or concentrate with citric acid first before ingesting, then priming the gut with antacids probably would be the best way to do it.
 

Mr.Deeds

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You might want to consider, to get the most bang for your buck, not that it's expensive though 🤣, to add a CYP450 inhibitor to the mix. Maybe citric acid or vinegar to put the tea at ph3 or 4 and let it sit for an hour or so while you take some cimetidine and tums/baking soda.
 

chicken hoagie

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You might want to consider, to get the most bang for your buck, not that it's expensive though 🤣, to add a CYP450 inhibitor to the mix. Maybe citric acid or vinegar to put the tea at ph3 or 4 and let it sit for an hour or so while you take some cimetidine and tums/baking soda.
Any suggestions on particular CYP450 inhibitors I could buy and use? I'm aware of grapefruit juice, although from what I have gathered in the past on this, the grapefruit juice commonly sold at grocery stores is not the right kind..

Ive also been told of a great but simple way to seperate the alkaloids out from the leaf..

Add a teaspoon of lemon juice with a cup of very hot water to a glass or jar of leaf, then set in freezer for 4 hours or until the leaf separates and drops to the bottom and you're left with a red liquid sitting on top..
 

Mafioso

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I'm a little skeptical about the whole acid vs alkaline stomach prime, might be an oversimplification of the digestive process. The stomach is already pretty acidic, and produces more acid and other enzymes during the digestive process. I would think you'd get far greater effect by prepping the plant/drug further rather than your stomach.

If the problem is the drug is trapped in the plant matter, then it would be possible to extract it further before consumption. If something like drinking orange juice prior to ingesting is going to have noticeable effects on the breaking down of the plant, then soaking it in citric acid prior to ingestion should have similar effects. It would be possible to soak for much longer this way, hopefully adding up to greater effect, assuming it works. This may be on to something, as I can only assume that we do not extract all of the kratom out of the plant material in our digestive system. However, this also assumes that kratom will not be broken down by the citric acid. Grinding the plant material into a finer powder would seem to serve this same function of breaking down plant material without potential risk of degrading with acid.

I'm curious about the actual chemical properties of kratom, and I'd need to learn more to say what will and wont work. It would be possible to take a solvent that will dissolve kratom, soak the plant material in said solvent, then filter off plant material and remove the solvent from the kratom drug itself. It may also be possible to separate kratom from the plant by physical means as well, employing heat, pressure, and filtration. A kratom isolate would be ideal for all ROAs.

I'm not totally sure how the alkaline idea would work, other than possibly that kratom can be broken down by acid, and that raising the pH of your stomach prevents or slows the breakdown/degradation kratom, allowing more to enter the bloodstream. Inhibitors would seem to serve the same function in this theory, with the same assumption that whatever it is being inhibited would breakdown/degrade the kratom. It is an interesting idea, but I don't know if it would work.

I will try to learn more about the chemical properties of kratom and report back.

-----


Interesting link about kratom extraction. According to it, the desired drugs are mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine, which are alkaloids.

"The alkaloids are accompanied by various other chemicals which don’t have any harmful effect but makes the availability of useful, beneficial alkaloids such as mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine difficult. When we extract the Kratom, the result is the purest form of it which is enriched with the alkaloids, excluding the additional chemicals. It is more potent and efficient than fresh Kratom"

I think the science on there might be questionable, just scanning through. In one of the steps, it says "As this mixture is boiled, the lemon juice is evaporated which means it makes no difference to the taste. However, it enhances the taste." which is an obvious contradiction- does it make no difference to the taste, or does it enhance it? Also, enhance is a very vague word when talking about something like taste.
 
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chicken hoagie

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Interesting link about kratom extraction. According to it, the desired drugs are mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine, which are alkaloids.

"The alkaloids are accompanied by various other chemicals which don’t have any harmful effect but makes the availability of useful, beneficial alkaloids such as mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine difficult. When we extract the Kratom, the result is the purest form of it which is enriched with the alkaloids, excluding the additional chemicals. It is more potent and efficient than fresh Kratom"

I think the science on there might be questionable, just scanning through. In one of the steps, it says "As this mixture is boiled, the lemon juice is evaporated which means it makes no difference to the taste. However, it enhances the taste." which is an obvious contradiction- does it make no difference to the taste, or does it enhance it? Also, enhance is a very vague word when talking about something like taste.
Very interesting. Seems to support what I have previously suspected, although you are right that it is contradicting..also, I don't think lemon juice is easily evaporated away and leaves no residual flavanoids or any other molecules..maybe I'm wrong. But it does seem that it would be best to take the time to acidify kratom leaf outside of the stomach, because as you said, the stomach is already very acidic..But moreso this has me more inclined to making my own extracts to take the raw plant matter out of the equation. I'm interested in seeing how far I can take mitragynine's/7OH's partial agonistic effects..if it is indeed a partial agonist as pharmacologists are currently stating.

Thanks for the responses. Be sure to add more if you find anything else on this topic!
 

Mafioso

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I don't think lemon juice is easily evaporated away and leaves no residual flavanoids or any other molecules.
it definitely doesn't, as the water and possibly volatiles like terpenes would evaporate but at room temperature there would be a ton of residuals left that will certainly impact flavor, and "enhance" is not an accurate description of how. Citric acid has a boiling point of 175C, so even if you were to boil the water off it would still add a sour taste.

I wouldn't doubt pharmacologists on the partial agonism mechanism. I'm sure you can stretch it's effects. but if you want full agonism it'd probably be safer to just switch to opioids. I hear a lot of people say no one has OD'd on kratom, which is false, and also just bad reasoning to assume the safety profile of a drug.

Will update tho, I'm interested in the chemistry now.
 

CoastTwoCoast

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Any suggestions on particular CYP450 inhibitors I could buy and use? I'm aware of grapefruit juice, although from what I have gathered in the past on this, the grapefruit juice commonly sold at grocery stores is not the right kind..
I tried it on regular opiates. It has to be white grapefruit juice, that's all. The gross tasting stuff. It's in stores. The ruby red grapefruit juice doesn't do the trick.
 

chicken hoagie

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I tried it on regular opiates. It has to be white grapefruit juice, that's all. The gross tasting stuff. It's in stores. The ruby red grapefruit juice doesn't do the trick.
Gotcha. Thanks for the info..gonna have to go pick up a bottle of some.

it definitely doesn't, as the water and possibly volatiles like terpenes would evaporate but at room temperature there would be a ton of residuals left that will certainly impact flavor, and "enhance" is not an accurate description of how. Citric acid has a boiling point of 175C, so even if you were to boil the water off it would still add a sour taste.

I wouldn't doubt pharmacologists on the partial agonism mechanism. I'm sure you can stretch it's effects. but if you want full agonism it'd probably be safer to just switch to opioids. I hear a lot of people say no one has OD'd on kratom, which is false, and also just bad reasoning to assume the safety profile of a drug.

Will update tho, I'm interested in the chemistry now.
I wonder what would be the mechanism of action that causes overdose then..? If it is indeed a partial agonist, I don't think typical opioid overdose symptoms would play a role unless it is combined with other nervous system depressants. I have read plenty of reports on overdoses from poly drug toxicity, which of course seems conclusive..the plethora of alkaloids certainly play numerous roles in pharmacological effects. Some of the alkaloids are supposed NMDA antagonists, which has me wondering if those alkaloids can have similar effect as typical NMDA antagonists like ketamine..perhaps the concentration of these alkaloids are not high enough to cause these affects in the whole leaf or even extracts, but if they could be isolate, that might be a different story..

Yes be sure to update with more info! Appreciate the responses.👍👍
 

CoastTwoCoast

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When I think of OD'ing on kratom, it's not fatal, but if you potentiate way too much, you can projectile puke across the room like The Exorcist. It's horrible. That happened in the past when I took phenibut first. When the phenibut started to kick in, I guess I took one too many kratom capsules, felt nauseas as fuck and it all came up. So be careful not to overdo the kratom while potentiating.

The nausea and vomiting can also happen by simply taking too much kratom on its own, but especially enhancing it.
 

chicken hoagie

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When I think of OD'ing on kratom, it's not fatal, but if you potentiate way too much, you can projectile puke across the room like The Exorcist. It's horrible. That happened in the past when I took phenibut first. When the phenibut started to kick in, I guess I took one too many kratom capsules, felt nauseas as fuck and it all came up. So be careful not to overdo the kratom while potentiating.

The nausea and vomiting can also happen by simply taking too much kratom on its own, but especially enhancing it.
Aw man, I have mixed phenibut with kratom..had me super fucked up. But yeah, phenibut is extremely sour, and sour to the stomach as well..

Just started my first day at the vape/kratom/CBD shop..got some treats :)

My manager said the chewables are extremely potent despite it only saying 20mg extract..could be a label error i suppose..or it has extremely high 7-OH content. He said to only start with 1/8 of the taffy..I went ahead with 3/4 lol. Will report back.

Btw, kratom is very bioavailable through mucous membranes, so I've let it roll around in my mouth until melting away. Should kick in very quick...tastes like a metal ass.
 

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CoastTwoCoast

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^ Ewww, you mean putting the kratom powder in your mouth? The taste and smell makes me want to hurl. I can only tolerate it in capsules or when I'm really desperate, I parachute it, using single squares of toilet paper. Haha Anything to not taste it.

Where the hell do you find kratom chewables? That sounds awesome! I love liquid kratom too, but only on occasion so it doesn't raise tolerance too much.

I went to Wild Bill's tobacco on Saturday, they only had capsules, powders and liquid. I would love chewables.
 

chicken hoagie

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^ Ewww, you mean putting the kratom powder in your mouth? The taste and smell makes me want to hurl. I can only tolerate it in capsules or when I'm really desperate, I parachute it, using single squares of toilet paper. Haha Anything to not taste it.

Where the hell do you find kratom chewables? That sounds awesome! I love liquid kratom too, but only on occasion so it doesn't raise tolerance too much.

I went to Wild Bill's tobacco on Saturday, they only had capsules, powders and liquid. I would love chewables.
Technically you could put powder under your tongue, but that would be a horrible idea😂. Me and my manager were discussing that today. But the chewables are very convenient to let sit in the mouth..I could definitely taste the kratom alkaloids, very bitter. I was super intrigued by it so I had to try some. Never seen it myself either
 

Iceprincess814

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I posted this in general drug discussion, but I figured I may be able to get a more technical response here, since this is in regards to pharmacokinetics.

It appears as though there is conflicting research regarding the potentiation of most drugs concerning whether to use alkaline substances to prime the stomach or acidic substances to break substances down faster.

So as we know, citric acid can help break down plant matter to its finer constituents, which helps with quicker absorption of said constituents..but taking antacids can help absorb MORE of the substance in question so that stomach acids don't destroy the compounds we are trying to absorb..

So my question is, can anyone give me some insight on to what would work better, or if there is a method to all of the acidic vs alkaline madness?
I know my mom is and has been addicted to benzodiazapines since I can remember. She has always said to take with grapefruit juice or orange juice because it tends to break down chemicals quicker. So she's explained it yes it does make it work faster and causes more of a "rush" for what it's worth. However as anyone attending a methadone clinic will not it says to avoid large amounts of vitamin c. Why? Since it will cause it to work faster it also causes your body to matabolize it quicker. So it will u fortunately leave the body quicker. Therefore, yes it'll be stronger as my doctor explained years ago when I hopped on the methadone band wagon, buy yes it will also cause it to happen. Quicker and cause a faster withdraw.
 

chicken hoagie

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I know my mom is and has been addicted to benzodiazapines since I can remember. She has always said to take with grapefruit juice or orange juice because it tends to break down chemicals quicker. So she's explained it yes it does make it work faster and causes more of a "rush" for what it's worth. However as anyone attending a methadone clinic will not it says to avoid large amounts of vitamin c. Why? Since it will cause it to work faster it also causes your body to matabolize it quicker. So it will u fortunately leave the body quicker. Therefore, yes it'll be stronger as my doctor explained years ago when I hopped on the methadone band wagon, buy yes it will also cause it to happen. Quicker and cause a faster withdraw.
Seems to make sense, although I would contribute chemical breakdown to citric acid moreso than ascorbic acid(Vitamin C). Also, I don't think citric acid has a big impact on single compound molecules. I think it really only applies to plant matter where plant cells are broken down faster due to the acidity rupturing the cellular membranes..grapefruit juice potentiates a lot of compounds like benzos because grapefruit inhibits an enzyme in the liver that is responsible for metabolizing said compounds, causing drug plasma levels to spike and keeps the drug in your system longer..apart from all of that, I would agree :)
 

Mafioso

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Taken from the mitragynine wiki
"Research on mitragynine structure–activity relationships have led to discovery of new potent opioid agonists, notably some C10-halogen and 2,3-ethylene glycol bridged derivatives of 7-hydroxymitragynine. The most potent one is the 10-fluoro ethylene glycol adduct of 7-hydroxymitragynine with a potency 4-fold higher than 7-hydroxymitragynine. Other modification led to 2,3-dihydro derivatives such as MGM-15, prepared by reduction of 7-hydroxymitragynine with sodium borohydride. The antinociceptive effect of MGM-15 is between 15 and 50 times more potent than that of morphine after subcutaneous and oral administration.[13]"

interesting....



Anyways, CNS depression is not the only way to die from kratom overdose. "According to clinical reviews, a kratom overdose can cause liver toxicity, seizures, coma, and death." I'd guess whatever is causing the liver toxicity is the culprit.
.perhaps the concentration of these alkaloids are not high enough to cause these affects in the whole leaf or even extracts, but if they could be isolate,
The mechanism won't change because of isolation, although it may with higher dosages. I don't think partial agonist become full though, as that is largely dependent upon the shape of the molecule and it's ability to bind to receptors. Full agonist are full agonist at low doses, as far as I'm aware. The part that would change would be in relation to enzymatic function, or lack of due to high doses. Or other parts of the body's chemistry that is changed due to the presence of the drug. The change due to body chemistry may not be a good/pleasureable one either.



On alkaloid extraction, from wiki:
"Because of the structural diversity of alkaloids, there is no single method of their extraction from natural raw materials.[175] Most methods exploit the property of most alkaloids to be soluble in organic solvents but not in water, and the opposite tendency of their salts.

Most plants contain several alkaloids. Their mixture is extracted first and then individual alkaloids are separated.[176] Plants are thoroughly ground before extraction.[175][177] Most alkaloids are present in the raw plants in the form of salts of organic acids.[175] The extracted alkaloids may remain salts or change into bases.[176] Base extraction is achieved by processing the raw material with alkaline solutions and extracting the alkaloid bases with organic solvents, such as 1,2-dichloroethane, chloroform, diethyl ether or benzene. Then, the impurities are dissolved by weak acids; this converts alkaloid bases into salts that are washed away with water. If necessary, an aqueous solution of alkaloid salts is again made alkaline and treated with an organic solvent. The process is repeated until the desired purity is achieved.

In the acidic extraction, the raw plant material is processed by a weak acidic solution (e.g., acetic acid in water, ethanol, or methanol). A base is then added to convert alkaloids to basic forms that are extracted with organic solvent (if the extraction was performed with alcohol, it is removed first, and the remainder is dissolved in water). The solution is purified as described above.[175][178]

Alkaloids are separated from their mixture using their different solubility in certain solvents and different reactivity with certain reagents or by distillation"

According to the mitragynine wiki page, it is an indole alkaloid.
Looking at the indole alkaloid page shows "Depending on their biosynthesis, two types of indole alkaloids are distinguished; isoprenoids and non-isoprenoids" followed by a list of both.
Looking back at the mitragynine page, it shows "It is structurally related to yohimbine but shows a totally different pharmacology", which is one of the chemicals listed under isoprenoid.

I'm am getting over my head here, but I believe that to be the info needed. Based on the info on these two wiki pages, and largely the fact that people commonly report making "kratom tea" with success, it seems mytragynine is water soluble. If a high level of purity isn't the end goal, one could potentially forego all the above info and just make a tea and reduce it via evaporation.

EDIT: Obviously more info would help here, but I am reaching the limits of my chemistry understanding. It might be possible to do an alkaloid extraction like that described in the wiki article, but it would have to be modified to account for mitragynine being soluable in water.
 
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CoastTwoCoast

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^ It's hard for me to believe kratom can kill you. Technically, I've been "overdosing" on kratom for years and even using it in combination with certain medicines and substances, nothing has ever happened to me. Like I said, nausea and vomiting was the worst of it.

I'm really curious to see what exactly caused anyone to die, I mean like what were they combining it with? With all of my experience, I should've been dead by now if that were the case. Or maybe I'm just lucky.
 

chicken hoagie

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Taken from the mitragynine wiki
"Research on mitragynine structure–activity relationships have led to discovery of new potent opioid agonists, notably some C10-halogen and 2,3-ethylene glycol bridged derivatives of 7-hydroxymitragynine. The most potent one is the 10-fluoro ethylene glycol adduct of 7-hydroxymitragynine with a potency 4-fold higher than 7-hydroxymitragynine. Other modification led to 2,3-dihydro derivatives such as MGM-15, prepared by reduction of 7-hydroxymitragynine with sodium borohydride. The antinociceptive effect of MGM-15 is between 15 and 50 times more potent than that of morphine after subcutaneous and oral administration.[13]"

interesting....



Anyways, CNS depression is not the only way to die from kratom overdose. "According to clinical reviews, a kratom overdose can cause liver toxicity, seizures, coma, and death." I'd guess whatever is causing the liver toxicity is the culprit.

The mechanism won't change because of isolation, although it may with higher dosages. I don't think partial agonist become full though, as that is largely dependent upon the shape of the molecule and it's ability to bind to receptors. Full agonist are full agonist at low doses, as far as I'm aware. The part that would change would be in relation to enzymatic function, or lack of due to high doses. Or other parts of the body's chemistry that is changed due to the presence of the drug. The change due to body chemistry may not be a good/pleasureable one either.



On alkaloid extraction, from wiki:
"Because of the structural diversity of alkaloids, there is no single method of their extraction from natural raw materials.[175] Most methods exploit the property of most alkaloids to be soluble in organic solvents but not in water, and the opposite tendency of their salts.

Most plants contain several alkaloids. Their mixture is extracted first and then individual alkaloids are separated.[176] Plants are thoroughly ground before extraction.[175][177] Most alkaloids are present in the raw plants in the form of salts of organic acids.[175] The extracted alkaloids may remain salts or change into bases.[176] Base extraction is achieved by processing the raw material with alkaline solutions and extracting the alkaloid bases with organic solvents, such as 1,2-dichloroethane, chloroform, diethyl ether or benzene. Then, the impurities are dissolved by weak acids; this converts alkaloid bases into salts that are washed away with water. If necessary, an aqueous solution of alkaloid salts is again made alkaline and treated with an organic solvent. The process is repeated until the desired purity is achieved.

In the acidic extraction, the raw plant material is processed by a weak acidic solution (e.g., acetic acid in water, ethanol, or methanol). A base is then added to convert alkaloids to basic forms that are extracted with organic solvent (if the extraction was performed with alcohol, it is removed first, and the remainder is dissolved in water). The solution is purified as described above.[175][178]

Alkaloids are separated from their mixture using their different solubility in certain solvents and different reactivity with certain reagents or by distillation"

According to the mitragynine wiki page, it is an indole alkaloid.
Looking at the indole alkaloid page shows "Depending on their biosynthesis, two types of indole alkaloids are distinguished; isoprenoids and non-isoprenoids" followed by a list of both.
Looking back at the mitragynine page, it shows "It is structurally related to yohimbine but shows a totally different pharmacology", which is one of the chemicals listed under isoprenoid.

I'm am getting over my head here, but I believe that to be the info needed. Based on the info on these two wiki pages, and largely the fact that people commonly report making "kratom tea" with success, it seems mytragynine is water soluble. If a high level of purity isn't the end goal, one could potentially forego all the above info and just make a tea and reduce it via evaporation.

EDIT: Obviously more info would help here, but I am reaching the limits of my chemistry understanding. It might be possible to do an alkaloid extraction like that described in the wiki article, but it would have to be modified to account for mitragynine being soluable in water.
Very interesting information. People do indeed make tea and evaporate out all of the water..I believe what is left is usually a paste or resin. I'll have to get to trying this at some point..

Obviously chemists will soon find a way to isolate mitragynine and co. If they don't straight up find a way to synthesize it altogether.

^ It's hard for me to believe kratom can kill you. Technically, I've been "overdosing" on kratom for years and even using it in combination with certain medicines and substances, nothing has ever happened to me. Like I said, nausea and vomiting was the worst of it.

I'm really curious to see what exactly caused anyone to die, I mean like what were they combining it with? With all of my experience, I should've been dead by now if that were the case. Or maybe I'm just lucky.
Modes of toxic overdose are probably largely individually dependant..and I imagine it would take a very concentrated form of alkaloids and an extremely high amount of them to truly cause a potential overdose of this substance.


It does seem like data supports its role as a partial agonist rather than being a full agonist..but as Mafioso said, it is still possible it could come out to be a full agonist with further research..unless it has already been discovered by pharmacologists to truly 100% be a partial agonist. Partial agonism is vastly different from full agonism, and I'd be interested to find out for sure. An alkaloid could easily be more potent than morphine but still not cause nearly as much of the euphoric high that is sought after in morphine..also, I suspect kappa agonism could largely be attributed to its stimulatory properties..possibly along with some indirect(or direct) dopamine release.
 
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