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Opioids Kratom Megathread V.6

hray7

Greenlighter
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
2
merged wit the kratom megathread. Please post questions specifically about kratom here :)

To answer your question, absolutely! Many of us here have been dependent on kratom at one time or another. We can provide you with better info if you share why you're asking the question. Are you struggling with a kratom addiction yourself?

I'm actually writing a thesis article on Kratom, hence a lot of research and gathering personal accounts. I have tried kratom myself a few times and found it enjoyable but have never used it consistently. I've heard a lot of positive user accounts, so I'm just curious about the negative experiences as well
 

Slow_Mobius

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
2,245
Location
USA
I've been dependent non kratom for about a year. There's definitely a risk for addiction/dependency, but it seems to get exponentially worse with increases in dose. If I'm taking a few grams everyday for a while and quit, I'll get some lethargy and that's about it. If im taking 15g a day and quit, I'll get some symptoms of mild opioid WD for a few days. We've also gotten some horror stories from people taking over an ounce a day.

IMO, based on seeing many personal accounts, using the herb daily myself, and the current literature on the topic, kratom carries some risk for addiction, but it doesn't put a finger on pharmaceutical opioids. I even find kratom WD to be far less severe than tramadol, which is a schedule IV weak opioid/SNRI (although tramadol can be worse than many give credit).

What I tell people is that kratom is probably a much better and less addcitvive alternative to many pharmaceuticals and alcohol, but if you don't keep your doses or dosing frequency within reason, it can cause nasty WDs
 

Julesz

Ex-Bluelighter
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Messages
42
Be careful of the liver and stomach failure Kratom overuse can cause
 

LucidSDreamr

Bluelighter
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
5,285
Location
Silicodone Valley
I'm actually writing a thesis article on Kratom, hence a lot of research and gathering personal accounts. I have tried kratom myself a few times and found it enjoyable but have never used it consistently. I've heard a lot of positive user accounts, so I'm just curious about the negative experiences as well

specifically what about kratom is your thesis on?

Be careful of the liver and stomach failure Kratom overuse can cause

where is this documented?
 

Slow_Mobius

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
2,245
Location
USA
For the record, it caused liver problems in one individual, but it wasn't clear that kratom was the culprit. Stomache failure is basically not a real condition. Julesz was trying to troll on a couple forums today.. I would disregard some of his posts
 

Violetta

Greenlighter
Joined
Nov 27, 2016
Messages
1
Merged with the megathread.

Also, we don't do substance IDs or brand/vendor/source discussions. I'll leave this discussion open if you want to talk about vein colors and their various effects, but we can't help you determine what you have because no one can know.

I'd love to know! Can anyone tell me what's the real difference between various veins? I mean... is there a difference in the expected effects or what? Quality?
Thanx a lot! :)
 

Slow_Mobius

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
2,245
Location
USA
I'd love to know! Can anyone tell me what's the real difference between various veins? I mean... is there a difference in the expected effects or what? Quality?
Thanx a lot! :)

Red veins tend to be more sedating and opiate like, white veins tend to be more stimulating, and greens are normally in the middle.

Some people say there's no real difference, but I'm in the camp that believes effects can definitely vary between different strains.
 

Oxygal

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 13, 2016
Messages
145
Location
Atlanta, Georgia
Has anyone used stem and vein to help with WD from plain leaf Kratom? If so, does it actually help? I've searched the net and can't really find much info on it.

Im in the process of an extremely aggressive taper from using Kratom daily for 7-8 months. There were days I would use up to 25 g. Today, I went from 3 doses down to two and took a total of 13 g between the two doses. Aside from some sniffles and boredom, I feel fine. Tomorrow I'm going to take it down to 10 g with 2 doses of 5 g each. On Wednesday, I have some stem and vein arriving. I have no idea how to use it to taper. For example, do I start mixing it w the plain leaf therefore reducing the amount of regular kratom
in each dose, or do I just throw out the plain leaf and immediately pick up the S & V and go from there?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I've kicked much harder opiates, but for some reason this kratom kick has me a little freaked out. I think bc the first time I attempted CT, I was taken back by how severe the anxiety and lethargy hit. I wasn't expecting that from Kratom as much.

Thanks!
 

Oxygal

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 13, 2016
Messages
145
Location
Atlanta, Georgia
I woke up around 5:30 AM (my normal wake up time) and had definitley started WD during the night for the first time ever. I had sweats and heightened anxiety upon waking. I took my first dose of only 5 g. It seemed to stave back the WD somewhat aside from the anxiety. I took 1.5 mg of Xanax (I am prescribed 2 mg per day and never take that much or take it daily bc I am terrified of benzo WD) and that was enough to make me really tired and actually fall asleep for about an hour this morning around 10:30 AM.

I am trying to hold off taking my second Kratom dose until 2 PM, and it again, it will be only 5 g. That will have me taking 15 g less per day in a 2 day old taper. I'm sure I will wake up in WD again in the morning, but with tapering, I know there still has to be some discomfort during the process. Tomorrow, I will hold at 10 g between 2 doses, but enter in the S & V at a 50/50 ratio.

I dont have much plain leaf left, and don't want to order more bc when I see a big pile of Kratom, all the tapering goes out the window. I'm just ready to be off Kratom for a while and enjoy life without anything to see how it goes. I love Kratom and it has been a life saver for me, but I have found I am addicted to it, and I don't want that anymore. I don't want to be chained to anything again.
 

eye dew Things

Bluelighter
Joined
Aug 8, 2015
Messages
215
Location
Atlanta GA
Hi Peeps, Yes I have been taking Kratom at least a year... Not that it's getting boring, it's also become less and less getting me motivated as much. I use daily to help wake up, I'm an early riser as well. It Sucks. I also use it too help shake off the grogginess of my Etizolam addiction.

On an empty stomach I consumed a combo of White Vein Indo/Green MaengDa, about 4 grams. I mean it helped with the 8 Etizest I ate around noon,,,, Just miss the motivation, mood lift....but at the same time I don't think I can ever see a time I will not WANT Kratom...

I dunno, just another point of view, I need a MEGA tolerance break from both Etizolam, and Kratom. It's just hard.
 

LucidSDreamr

Bluelighter
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
5,285
Location
Silicodone Valley
^ so it doesn't have that motivating factor anymore? what about antidepressant effects?

this is what I use it for. I got totally clean from prescription fentanyl, but after 6 months totally off of everything. i was just too depressed and I found that the kratom eliminates it even at low doses such as 2 or 3g. So i made the decision to get dependent on it because i'd rather be addicted to something and happy and productive than totally clean but miserable and non productive. If these beneficial effects are only transient, I am worried that it might not be worth it.


also on a side not I've noticed that since being dependent on kratom, oxycodone euphoria is gone from oxy now. even a good strong dose of 60 mg, while fucking me up good...has lost all euphoria and enjoyment. the kratom offers much more of a "high" despite not being actually physically as instense at all
 

Oxygal

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 13, 2016
Messages
145
Location
Atlanta, Georgia
^this exact thing happened to me. After using only Kratom for about 7 months, when I did finally try a synthetic opiate again, I felt little to no effects and definitely no euphoria

Actually since starting this rapid taper, I have felt more from Kratom and stronger effects than I have in months. The first 5g of the morning just basically takes away the WD. But my second dose at 2 PM of 5 g is way stronger and longer lasting than I've had from Kratom in a long time. It must have something to do w the taper. I don't understand it but I'm not complaining. I've reduced my daily
intake by 15 g in 2 days and feel better on Kratom that I did before. Go figure. ��
 

Slow_Mobius

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
2,245
Location
USA
The problem is that that there a few cases out of hundreds of thousands of users. Also, some kratom products have been known to be adulterated, so we can't conclude that it's specifically the kratom.

I'll give you an example of a similar set of circumstances. Not long ago, there was an outbreak of liver failure cases directly linked to kava consumption, so the EU banned kava. As it turns out, the liver failure cases had nothing to do with kava root powder, but it was caused by manufacturers that were selling extracts that were adulterated with inedible cultivars and toxic parts of the plant (IE stems and leaves). Moreover many of those cases of liver failure were complicated by concurrent intake of other drugs that can be hard on the liver.

So, I think it's definitely a good idea for people to get checked for liver issues, but there's no reason to believe that kratom is hepatotoxic. Much more likely possibilities would be a very small percentage of the population have a genetic predisposition to get liver problems from kratom, adulterants, people already partially destroying their liver, or some combination of the three.
 

kratomtea7

Greenlighter
Joined
Feb 9, 2017
Messages
3
The problem is that that there a few cases out of hundreds of thousands of users. Also, some kratom products have been known to be adulterated, so we can't conclude that it's specifically the kratom.


The first study mentions that no adulterant was detected:

Samples of the kratom powders used by the patient (“Thai Pimp” and “Malaysian Green”) were analyzed by gas chromatography–mass spectrometry (GC–MS) to confirm the use of M. speciosa and to exclude other toxic ingredients.
Through detection of mitragynine (both samples) and traces of rhynchophylline (only in “Thai Pimp”), besides typical phytosterols, the samples were identified as M. speciosa. Although mitragynine was not quantified, the analysis revealed that the sample of “Thai Pimp” contained significantly more mitragynine than the sample of “Malaysian Green.” In both samples, no synthetic adulterants or contaminations were detected.
 

Slow_Mobius

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
2,245
Location
USA
The first study mentions that no adulterant was detected:

With the wide-spread use of RCs these days, that doesn't mean that there wasn't any type of adulteration. It just means that they weren't able to detect an adulterant. I think that adulteration in that particular case would be unlikely, but that still does nothing to prove kratom is hepatotoxic. Even if we knew with certainty that each case of liver failure was caused by nothing other than people consuming kratom leaf, the small number of cases would dwarf the large body of people that use it without any liver issues. I'll refer back to my previous hypotheses that it could also due to prior health issues or genetic predisposition. it's an extremely rare reaction.

Again, I'll refer the instance of liver failure associated with kava consumption. Adulterants were not detected because at the time, no one knew what they needed to look for. I'm not tying to say kratom is harmless, but this smells like a witch hunt. I think it's prudent to see a doctor if you're worried about liver issues, but i wouldn't avoid the plant just because of its weak association with liver failure.
 

kratomtea7

Greenlighter
Joined
Feb 9, 2017
Messages
3
Last edited:

Slow_Mobius

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
2,245
Location
USA
I give this information for harm reduction.

There are also other reasons that may exhort caution with kratom, especially the risk of dependence:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24698080

This recent study (with 293 Malaysian kratom users) reports a withdrawal syndrome.

Many addictions stories here:
https://drugs-forum.com/threads/kratom-addiction.24888/

And on the sub-reddit "quitting kratom".

Take care !

Sounds good :) I don't think anyone here will deny that kratom dependence will produce opioid withdrawal symptoms. It is an opioid after all. I think what's being misunderstood is that kratom is pretty harmless in comparison to virtually any other opioid--especially our pharmaceuticals. Tramadol is the lowest scheduled pharmaceutical opioid, and there are tons of cases of serious health complications and withdrawal associated with it's use. Kratom is an opioid, it can be abused, it can cause WD with extended use, but it's also an awesome analgesic with side effects, WD, and addiction liability that pale in comparison to our current pharmacopeia of pain killers.
 

Mycophile

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Messages
3,865
Couple questions:

Does anyone have info, not just on where the Kratom ban is at in particular in the U.S., but New York specifically??

Unfortunately, they are really going after New York, Florida and 2 other states right now (forget which ones).

And with Jeff "the weed hating neo nazi" just being appointed Attorney General, I think it won't be long now...

I hate the fucking DEA, they are downright evil IMO.

Anyways, I wanted to know where it's at at this point.

I guess I've heard legality issues aren't allowed to be discussed here but is it REALLY not ok to discuss whether something is legal or not?

I just don't understand what harm that does anyone.

As for WD, of course it has some.

That is one of the reasons I've gotten to the point of wanting to stop, only the problem is I'd just like to stop for a year or two, not FOREVER, but I may not have a choice.

I've been pretty good at not using it every SINGLE day, and honestly most people would be much further in after using on and off for 2 years, but still, I'm at a point where because I don't want to become TOO dependent, like once every two weeks I have to go about another week without to get over the WD, which is mainly depression, being really tired and sleeping a lot, some muscle aches, runny nose, and just not having much motivation to do anything.

It's not the worst thing in the world, and really IMO is pretty much like going cold turkey off coffee cause I have a HUGE caffeine habit, except adding in a runny nose.

It should stay legal...but it's just gotten to this point where i think enough is enough and I'm not focusing enough on more important thing and don't like having to be incapable of doing much while I go through withdrawal for like 12 days or so out of every month to avoid the habit getting any worse.

And I do have one question: now I PERSONALLY think the liver issues are for rare people who can't tolerate Kratom due to lacking some enzymes.

BUT...and this is a bit explicit LOL, maybe a few days a month when I am sitting on the toilet the day after using Kratom, and then sometimes for a few more minutes after getting up off the toliet, I will feel like I am getting some mild aches in my liver area.

Has anyone else ever experienced this?

Do you think this is a sign that I am straining my liver?

Just because I feel it in the right side does that mean it's my liver?

And if it is, to people think this is long term?

I mean I tend to think it might just be from straining after being constipated, but why the left side and not the right, and why only when I use the toilet or shortly after?

I am assuming the issue will clear up once I eventually stop, and would probably not do more than temporarily raise liver enzymes like alcohol do, but since the last time I had a doctors visit and had my liver/blood looked at was only shortly after I started using small amounts of Kratom once or twice a week, I have to admit I'm a bit nervous about my next doctor's visit, and thinking I'm REALLY gonna clean up, abstain from most drugs including Kratom, alcohol, Phenibut, etc for a few months, and go on a good diet and lose some weight, with the hopes that my liver will look good by the time I finally go.

I guess I have established that old oh so healthy "white coat doctor fear" haha.

I mean I figure, why go see the doctor when you are putting crap in your body so you can see bad results?

Why not clean up, do the right thing for a few months and only THEN see the doctor, because if by THAT time your liver/blood looks good, you are ok, and if not, well only then would you have something to worry about, other than freaking out about something temporary.

I mean my liver enzymes are always elevated after drinking also...so I see no point in getting yourself in bad shape and having a doctor look at you while you are at your worse so he can say "yeah, your liver enzymes are elevated" well no shit doc lol......
 
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