Opioids Kratom is going bye bye

[CfZrx]

Fuck! It looks like they are at it again. Now with more propaganda. My supply is limited. Will need to raise sub dose if this goes schedule 1.

 

[Mycophile]

I'm not sure I believe it's going to be scheduled.

I heard that that the sources suggesting that are not reliable and that all that is really happening is the FDA is trying to stop shipments.

They've been trying to do this for years so what proof do we have they are closer than before?

Also, doesn't congress need to vote on this?

The FDA can't just decide without a vote can they?

I'm choosing not to believe this unless I see legit proof.

 

[CfZrx]

I'm not sure I believe it's going to be scheduled.

I heard that that the sources suggesting that are not reliable and that all that is really happening is the FDA is trying to stop shipments.

They've been trying to do this for years so what proof do we have they are closer than before?

Also, doesn't congress need to vote on this?

The FDA can't just decide without a vote can they?

I'm choosing not to believe this unless I see legit proof.

Hey Mycophile, are you gonna use Suboxone to escape kratom's clutch3s if this shit goes down? Lol, I'm just finishing my boatload from the last time it almost got zapped. The main thing is to have enough to taper slowly so as not to fuck my mental state i.e. keep my job. I am now watching my vendors pricing. Will wait till last possible moment to order if it gets scheduled in order to get amazing deals, like $50/ki or better. I was mindful of beginning to taper today. Goal- 2 teaspoons/day by 2019.

 

[Mycophile]

Hey Mycophile, are you gonna use Suboxone to escape kratom's clutch3s if this shit goes down? Lol, I'm just finishing my boatload from the last time it almost got zapped. The main thing is to have enough to taper slowly so as not to fuck my mental state i.e. keep my job. I am now watching my vendors pricing. Will wait till last possible moment to order if it gets scheduled in order to get amazing deals, like $50/ki or better. I was mindful of beginning to taper today. Goal- 2 teaspoons/day by 2019.

I thought I explained to you before, but i guess it was someone else, that I've never allowed my physical dependency to get to the point where withdrawal is more than 4 uncomfortable days of lethargy, fatigue and depression. I've never needed a taper.

This week was a bad week for me: dosed twice sunday, once monday, none at all tuesday, once wedensday, twice yesterday, once today and I might but shouldn't dose once more, then I won't take any tomorrow or Sunday and probably sleep all weekend long LOL...I'll need to take one dose to work Monday, then thanskgiving break so I'll probably still be in WD Tuesday, and at most a LITTLE Wednesday so I should have none at all Thanksgiving in 6 days max.

That's honestly about as bad as my usage ever gets.

I've never lost count of the number of days I have used it.

I mean I am SUPER psychologically addicted and obsessed with it but my physical dependency has never lasted more than 3 bad days and another 2 mild days cold turkey with no taper.

The most days I ever used in my life was I took it for 8 in a row, then one off, then 9 in a row.

They say if you can count it's not THAT bad.

To taper or use another drug would really just be extending what is essentially more of a Kratom hangover than WD...even though it is.

I am still not sure that the claim that it is going to be scheduled is legit.

I know the FDA is messing with shipments, but I don't know that this scare is worse than the others in the past, and I've talked to some smart people who think that this will continue to be a protracted thing like the other times and not so immediately bad.

I should stop AT LEAST a few months just cause I am too obsessed with it.

I'd be better off quitting Kratom forever simply cause I am too obsessed with it and it makes me tired for days when I don't use it.

Who knows what will happen, but I gotta curb my use one way or another.

 

[Sertürner]

I am this exact situation. I look up almost every day what is going on with this situation. I take a decent amount if the stuff every day, about 3tbsp. I am wondering if now is this time to stock up or if the worry about its scheduling is not as imminent as they make it out to be. I live in TX where it's legal, if that makes any difference.

 

[Mycophile]

I am this exact situation. I look up almost every day what is going on with this situation. I take a decent amount if the stuff every day, about 3tbsp. I am wondering if now is this time to stock up or if the worry about its scheduling is not as imminent as they make it out to be. I live in TX where it's legal, if that makes any difference.

It's legal where I am too.

What makes it hard for me is knowing I use too much and need to stop quite a while and MAYBE quit permanently, but I don't really want to stop FOREVER, just a while, and in the past whenever I need to take a break from substances knowing that they ARE still available and telling myself I'm not stopping FOREVER but just reminding myself each time I want to use that I CAN EVENTUALLY just not NOW is always what has gotten me through to the point of doing things like going years without weed or months without drinking, but knowing it's either stock up or lose the chance FOREVER drives me crazy.

If I want to quit something for a while or even forever I don't want anyone else FORCING me to do it and that makes me NOT want to quit when I might otherwise.

We'll see what happens.

This has happened before, and I am not necessarily sure they are closer to banning it than in 2016.

More than anything, even if I were to choose to quit, it's the immorality of the situation that drives me insane: I believe ALL drugs should be legal for adults when not behind the wheel of a car.

I feel sorry for those who really NEED Kratom for pain and can't believe the nerve of these NAZIS in the FDA and DEA to think they should have a right to tell people what can and cannot be in their blood streams.

I forget who said it but it was basically like "how invasive can the government get? They are allowed to look at what is in OUR BLOOD. True invasion of privacy, actually looking inside our bodies."


I have always believed it should be a constitutional right to use substances just like it is to carry a gun.

MOST drug use does NOT cause collateral damage, and even where it does if someone breaks a law while under the influence they should go to prison for THAT...like driving impaired, NOT the substance.

I believe in a 100% END TO THE WAR ON DRUGS.

We do not and never will live in a free country.

But as for me, I don't know what I'll do.

I know I'm stopping for at least a few months, but beyond that point I don't know.

Maybe using this as an excuse to stop forever and just consider Kratom a dead issue could be the healthiest thing for me, and it's certainly an option I'll consider.

 

[Sertürner]

It's legal where I am too.

What makes it hard for me is knowing I use too much and need to stop quite a while and MAYBE quit permanently, but I don't really want to stop FOREVER, just a while, and in the past whenever I need to take a break from substances knowing that they ARE still available and telling myself I'm not stopping FOREVER but just reminding myself each time I want to use that I CAN EVENTUALLY just not NOW is always what has gotten me through to the point of doing things like going years without weed or months without drinking, but knowing it's either stock up or lose the chance FOREVER drives me crazy.

If I want to quit something for a while or even forever I don't want anyone else FORCING me to do it and that makes me NOT want to quit when I might otherwise.

We'll see what happens.

This has happened before, and I am not necessarily sure they are closer to banning it than in 2016.

More than anything, even if I were to choose to quit, it's the immorality of the situation that drives me insane: I believe ALL drugs should be legal for adults when not behind the wheel of a car.

I feel sorry for those who really NEED Kratom for pain and can't believe the nerve of these NAZIS in the FDA and DEA to think they should have a right to tell people what can and cannot be in their blood streams.

I forget who said it but it was basically like "how invasive can the government get? They are allowed to look at what is in OUR BLOOD. True invasion of privacy, actually looking inside our bodies."


I have always believed it should be a constitutional right to use substances just like it is to carry a gun.

MOST drug use does NOT cause collateral damage, and even where it does if someone breaks a law while under the influence they should go to prison for THAT...like driving impaired, NOT the substance.

I believe in a 100% END TO THE WAR ON DRUGS.

We do not and never will live in a free country.

But as for me, I don't know what I'll do.

I know I'm stopping for at least a few months, but beyond that point I don't know.

Maybe using this as an excuse to stop forever and just consider Kratom a dead issue could be the healthiest thing for me, and it's certainly an option I'll consider.

While I do not support the War on Drugs, I do believe that there are some substances should be controlled such as methamphetamine, cocaine, and potent opioids (Codeine should at least be OTC here in the US). But kratom is not anywhere close to these. Weed gets me 10x more fucked up than kratom! And the smokes I have are 10x more addictive. Yet they are both legal.

It's this ridiculous "opioid crisis". Fent comes in to the black market and people start dying, therefore now ALL opioids are equally as dangerous!

So let's make it harder for medical professionals to admistinister/prescribe them, then schedule all the opioids we possibly can including kratom, and on the side we will approve and market Dsuvia, fucking sufentanil pills.
Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

[Mycophile]

While I do not support the War on Drugs, I do believe that there are some substances should be controlled such as methamphetamine, cocaine, and potent opioids (Codeine should at least be OTC here in the US). But kratom is not anywhere close to these. Weed gets me 10x more fucked up than kratom! And the smokes I have are 10x more addictive. Yet they are both legal.

It's this ridiculous "opioid crisis". Fent comes in to the black market and people start dying, therefore now ALL opioids are equally as dangerous!

So let's make it harder for medical professionals to admistinister/prescribe them, then schedule all the opioids we possibly can including kratom, and on the side we will approve and market Dsuvia, fucking sufentanil pills.
Hypocrisy at its finest.

So you support people actually GOING TO PRISON even for using hard drugs like Coke, Heroin and Meth??

I certainly do not.

I mean if we wanted to even get draconian I could IMAGINE someone supporting mandatory enforced rehab if someone is caught with one of those hard substances (and I DO NOT, I believe VERY firmly if you want to use something you should be allowed no matter what), but PRISON time?? Can't see a good argument for that.

I mean you mention cocaine, but I've used Coke just a few times in the past, and I believe HIGH doses of alcohol are probably more dangerous than small amounts of coke.

I don't think drugs being controlled makes a difference: people will always find a way to use them and all it does is clog the prison system.


So just because harder substances can SOMETIMES hurt people therefore people should not be allowed to use them in the privacy of their own homes if they want??

I disagree.

I believe if you are 18 years old and sitting in your own living room and not driving a car you should be able to shoot up heroin, and smoke a mixture of crack, meth and PCP all day long.

Using drugs does not hurt anyone other than the user.

I mean yeah, people will argue that family members and friends of the user are also "hurt" indirectly by either having to see the person suffer through addiction or support them monetarily or whatever, but that's still not then actually being physically damaged, and I don't believe that trumps a person's right to do what they want with their own body.

Tobacco and Alcohol are actually IMO more dangerous than the majority of hard drugs out there, aside from the worst like Heroin and Meth. I'm not even sure if Crack or coke is more dangerous than booze overall, probably a toss up.

But the amount of physical harm a person can do to themselves with something should not be a factor.

I mean IMO suicide should be legal so I'd be hypocritical to think someone should have the right to take their own life but not risk it to a lesser extent with hard drugs.

IMO all drugs should be regulated for purity, doctors should be health advisors rather than having the right to stop people from using they should inform them of the dangers so they know if they are willing to take them, and help mitigate damage through harm reduction like this forum, and then everyone who is 18 and over should be allowed to do what they want if not driving a car.

Even something as dangerous as Fentanyl: what would making it illegal do??

It already is scheduled and people die from it.

You know what would work??

Legalize pure heroin and regulate it so everyone who wants to use knows that it is NOT tainted with Fentanyl, and then watch the death toll from Fentanyl (and heroin as well) drop substantially.

Then use all the money currently implemented towards cops arresting drug users and the clogged up prison system to rehab facilities which could actually use Kratom to help wean these people along with suboxone and Methadone like they already do.

TEAR DOWN EVERY DAMN D.A.R.E sign that I see next to the road signs for EVERY TOWN in the U.S., and in their place put up signs for rehabs and clinics where people can legally get smaller, regulated doses of the opiates they crave in a safe environment or get help weaning off all drugs if they want.

Imprisoning people doesn't work, and I say even if you want to hurt yourself or end your own life, it's your body, your life and your choice.

I think if we decriminalized all drugs and put effort into harm reduction, reducing the stigma of drug use and treating it as a health/mental health issue and not a criminal one we'd save countless lives and ironically, by allowing people to use drugs we'd be able to decrease the overall amount of drugs used in the U.S./world wide 10 times more than the war on drugs ever did.

 

[Sertürner]

It's legal where I am too.

What makes it hard for me is knowing I use too much and need to stop quite a while and MAYBE quit permanently, but I don't really want to stop FOREVER, just a while, and in the past whenever I need to take a break from substances knowing that they ARE still available and telling myself I'm not stopping FOREVER but just reminding myself each time I want to use that I CAN EVENTUALLY just not NOW is always what has gotten me through to the point of doing things like going years without weed or months without drinking, but knowing it's either stock up or lose the chance FOREVER drives me crazy.

If I want to quit something for a while or even forever I don't want anyone else FORCING me to do it and that makes me NOT want to quit when I might otherwise.

We'll see what happens.

This has happened before, and I am not necessarily sure they are closer to banning it than in 2016.

More than anything, even if I were to choose to quit, it's the immorality of the situation that drives me insane: I believe ALL drugs should be legal for adults when not behind the wheel of a car.

I feel sorry for those who really NEED Kratom for pain and can't believe the nerve of these NAZIS in the FDA and DEA to think they should have a right to tell people what can and cannot be in their blood streams.

I forget who said it but it was basically like "how invasive can the government get? They are allowed to look at what is in OUR BLOOD. True invasion of privacy, actually looking inside our bodies."


I have always believed it should be a constitutional right to use substances just like it is to carry a gun.

MOST drug use does NOT cause collateral damage, and even where it does if someone breaks a law while under the influence they should go to prison for THAT...like driving impaired, NOT the substance.

I believe in a 100% END TO THE WAR ON DRUGS.

We do not and never will live in a free country.

But as for me, I don't know what I'll do.

I know I'm stopping for at least a few months, but beyond that point I don't know.

Maybe using this as an excuse to stop forever and just consider Kratom a dead issue could be the healthiest thing for me, and it's certainly an option I'll consider.

So you support people actually GOING TO PRISON even for using hard drugs like Coke, Heroin and Meth??

I certainly do not.

I mean if we wanted to even get draconian I could IMAGINE someone supporting mandatory enforced rehab if someone is caught with one of those hard substances (and I DO NOT, I believe VERY firmly if you want to use something you should be allowed no matter what), but PRISON time?? Can't see a good argument for that.

I mean you mention cocaine, but I've used Coke just a few times in the past, and I believe HIGH doses of alcohol are probably more dangerous than small amounts of coke.

I don't think drugs being controlled makes a difference: people will always find a way to use them and all it does is clog the prison system.


So just because harder substances can SOMETIMES hurt people therefore people should not be allowed to use them in the privacy of their own homes if they want??

I disagree.

I believe if you are 18 years old and sitting in your own living room and not driving a car you should be able to shoot up heroin, and smoke a mixture of crack, meth and PCP all day long.

Using drugs does not hurt anyone other than the user.

I mean yeah, people will argue that family members and friends of the user are also "hurt" indirectly by either having to see the person suffer through addiction or support them monetarily or whatever, but that's still not then actually being physically damaged, and I don't believe that trumps a person's right to do what they want with their own body.

Tobacco and Alcohol are actually IMO more dangerous than the majority of hard drugs out there, aside from the worst like Heroin and Meth. I'm not even sure if Crack or coke is more dangerous than booze overall, probably a toss up.

But the amount of physical harm a person can do to themselves with something should not be a factor.

I mean IMO suicide should be legal so I'd be hypocritical to think someone should have the right to take their own life but not risk it to a lesser extent with hard drugs.

IMO all drugs should be regulated for purity, doctors should be health advisors rather than having the right to stop people from using they should inform them of the dangers so they know if they are willing to take them, and help mitigate damage through harm reduction like this forum, and then everyone who is 18 and over should be allowed to do what they want if not driving a car.

Even something as dangerous as Fentanyl: what would making it illegal do??

It already is scheduled and people die from it.

You know what would work??

Legalize pure heroin and regulate it so everyone who wants to use knows that it is NOT tainted with Fentanyl, and then watch the death toll from Fentanyl (and heroin as well) drop substantially.

Then use all the money currently implemented towards cops arresting drug users and the clogged up prison system to rehab facilities which could actually use Kratom to help wean these people along with suboxone and Methadone like they already do.

TEAR DOWN EVERY DAMN D.A.R.E sign that I see next to the road signs for EVERY TOWN in the U.S., and in their place put up signs for rehabs and clinics where people can legally get smaller, regulated doses of the opiates they crave in a safe environment or get help weaning off all drugs if they want.

Imprisoning people doesn't work, and I say even if you want to hurt yourself or end your own life, it's your body, your life and your choice.

I think if we decriminalized all drugs and put effort into harm reduction, reducing the stigma of drug use and treating it as a health/mental health issue and not a criminal one we'd save countless lives and ironically, by allowing people to use drugs we'd be able to decrease the overall amount of drugs used in the U.S./world wide 10 times more than the war on drugs ever did.

I do certainly think alcohol is one of the worst drugs a human can take. I am an alcoholic myself. It is more dangerous than many of the C1 drugs. And kratom is possibly about to be pushed into that classification of drugs.
Alcohol is certainly more harmful than kratom. It is more harmful than LSD and DMT and even some Schedule 1 opioids.
I understand your train of thought on this topic, prison for a substance disorder is not a suitable treatment. It is of societal benefit that some drugs do need to either not be legal, or under the care of a physician.
I wouldn't want a world where people could go buy LSD, cocaine, meth OTC (I know, it's a CII, but still). But I dont think they have 0 medicinal value. Just because something can be abused doesn't mean it isn't useful, like kratom.

 

[Mycophile]

I do certainly think alcohol is one of the worst drugs a human can take. I am an alcoholic myself. It is more dangerous than many of the C1 drugs. And kratom is possibly about to be pushed into that classification of drugs.
Alcohol is certainly more harmful than kratom. It is more harmful than LSD and DMT and even some Schedule 1 opioids.
I understand your train of thought on this topic, prison for a substance disorder is not a suitable treatment. It is of societal benefit that some drugs do need to either not be legal, or under the care of a physician.
I wouldn't want a world where people could go buy LSD, cocaine, meth OTC (I know, it's a CII, but still). But I dont think they have 0 medicinal value. Just because something can be abused doesn't mean it isn't useful, like kratom.

So in your perfect world would you just see people fined or put in rehab for using those drugs??

I mean, I don't think it would be great if every street was filled with heroin addicts, but I seriously believe there would be FEWER people using drugs if they were decriminalize/legal.

I don't see how drug laws have helped.

I mean yeah, people would have more access, but I think very quickly so many people would become so familiar with so many drugs and their negative effects (and positive) that except for stone cold addicts who will use no matter what (and yeah, I'm a bit of an addict too, not hard drugs though)...that shit would weed itself out, and use might go up at first but then go down.

Interesting you put LDS in that list cause I don't think that would cause many problems.

Have you tripped on acid before?

It certainly is NOT likely to make anyone violent, not even close to as much as booze, and actually it is safer than Kratom even, non-addictive and cannot be overdosed on.

Sure, tripping people could do some messed up shit, but as long as they don't drive I don't think acid would be such a huge thing.

Have you done coke?

Cause I have and don't think it's a big deal either.

It's really just a stronger and a bit more abrasive stimulant than Adderall and of a different class, but not IMO likely to lead to violent crime or anything.

The only drugs that even make me consider some kind of regulation are not because of their addictive potential or potential to overdose but if they could be more likely to make people violent, and one of the only ones that does have some significant link to that is Meth.

Other than Meth and maybe PCP, alcohol is actually more linked to episodes of rage or violence than others, and I think even in a world where Meth and all drugs were totally legal we would still find that the one drug linked to more episodes of violence, rape, erratic driving, etc would STILL be alcohol.

I mean drug laws just don't work.

They can make it harder to find drugs yes, but if a person can find them they don't deter them.

IF I wasn't 100% for decriminalization (which I am), I'd be for forced rehab if you are caught taking Meth, Heroin, Crack and harder drugs, like a cop would cuff you and take you down to the station and you'd be locked in a rehab facility till you were clean for like a month and then released, and maybe fined a significant sum of money if you tried to escape or whatever, but never imprisoned.

But I'm still not for that: I think we should just make drugs AND TRULY quality rehab more available, and have programs that TRULY educate people about drugs (like basically bluelight...) and I could see certain drugs requiring you VISIT a doctor first and talk to him so he could really tell you about their dangers and how to use them more safely if you should choose to partake, but then at the end of the visit he should not have the ability to deny you a drug if you choose to take it.

I'd actually make TRUE drug education something taught in schools, but in a totally 100% different and more open minded way where your average person would just have a strong understanding of the TRUE effects (good and bad) of more drugs, with no stigma surrounding them.

We'd certainly have a society where it might become more common to know of people who had certain drug issues, but it would also be a more open society, and I believe a safer and more open-minded one overall.

 

[Sertürner]

We obviously have different opinions on the scheduling of drugs, but I think we are debating on controlled drugs as a whole as opposed to the real issue at hand, kratom.
I can the idea of decriminalization and its benefits, just as you have seen my point of view as well; and we can both agree how Kratom shouldn't be a part of any part of a discussion on "dangerous drugs with no medicinal value".

I feel like you are assuming I dont know know very much about these other drugs, but yes I have done all the ones I mentioned (barring DMT) many times. And I have gotten heavily dependent on quite a few over the years, and still struggling.

Anyways, back to kratom, do you have any recent information regarding the scheduling process? I am sure there are people who know more about what's going on than me.

 

[Mycophile]

We obviously have different opinions on the scheduling of drugs, but I think we are debating on controlled drugs as a whole as opposed to the real issue at hand, kratom.
I can the idea of decriminalization and its benefits, just as you have seen my point of view as well; and we can both agree how Kratom shouldn't be a part of any part of a discussion on "dangerous drugs with no medicinal value".

I feel like you are assuming I dont know know very much about these other drugs, but yes I have done all the ones I mentioned (barring DMT) many times. And I have gotten heavily dependent on quite a few over the years, and still struggling.

Anyways, back to kratom, do you have any recent information regarding the scheduling process? I am sure there are people who know more about what's going on than me.

I never did DMT, though I'd like to. I didn't necessarily assume you hadn't used those drugs, though it sounded like you hadn't.

I was more wondering what you would propose the penalty being for having any drug you think should be controlled in your ideal society cause I am up late and bored and I find this a very interesting discussion.

If you were going to have anything be controlled then there needs to be a penalty for having it, and I can't understand how anyone could be ok with penalizing anyone with jail time even for having hard drugs like Meth or Heroin so I just wondered what you thought the penalty should be.

My sympathies on being dependent on drugs cause I'm an addict myself, but I just don't think people having issues with drugs should be what we base laws on.


Anyways, no, I don't have information regarding the scheduling process sorry.

I thought there HAD to be more involved then just the DEA deciding they can schedule whatever they want, and i'd figure in a SUPPOSEDLY free society there must be and that congress would be involved and people would vote on this, but lots of other people are saying there is barely any process and that congress doesn't have to be involved and the DEA can schedule whatever they want.

That sounds VERY hard to believe to me, but that's what people keep saying, so I hope they are wrong.

Maybe someone else knows cause I'm trying to find out too.

If the DEA could literally just schedule anything they want just because they want to I wouldn't even see how that could be possible in a democracy. I mean that's pretty totalitarian if you ask me so I'm not quite buying there isn't a bit more involved in the process than that, and the thing is, they FAILED when they tried in 2016 and I think that's cause so many people protested, yet these same people now are saying our signatures and donations don't matter, which if they didn't, then why did they fail in 2016??

 

[Sertürner]

Well if I were to imagine a society with all drugs legal I would want some of them to be be controlled and prescribed based on the needs of the patient. Tons of drugs under C1 scheduling have proven therapeutic uses. We are missing out on amazing medicine due to the lack of studies that can be done due to the scheduling of these drugs.
But I would want them (some , not all, like pot and soon to be kratom now) to be used for the sole purpose of treatment of disorders whether it's chronic pain or a psychiatric condition.

The people using these drugs medicinally shouldn't go to prison or pay fines and tickets or anything of the sort. But I think the people who deliberately obtain them to sell them for a profit should do so at their own risk.

In an ideal society, people would be able to take any drug that helped them with whatever condition they were diagnosed with. But I dont think that will ever happen.

Even with the legal controlled drugs today, diversion of prescriptions is huge. It significantly affects the people who need the meds the most, which aligned with your thoughts that drugs should be legal because people need them and it will reduce the number of addicts going to prison for something they cannot help.

If treated as a medication rather than a flat out dangerous and useless drug in the medical community, medicine would greatly advance. But allowing non-licensed people to dispense them is unethical and dangerous in my opinion.

 

[Mycophile]

Well if I were to imagine a society with all drugs legal I would want some of them to be be controlled and prescribed based on the needs of the patient. Tons of drugs under C1 scheduling have proven therapeutic uses. We are missing out on amazing medicine due to the lack of studies that can be done due to the scheduling of these drugs.
But I would want them (some , not all, like pot and soon to be kratom now) to be used for the sole purpose of treatment of disorders whether it's chronic pain or a psychiatric condition.

The people using these drugs medicinally shouldn't go to prison or pay fines and tickets or anything of the sort. But I think the people who deliberately obtain them to sell them for a profit should do so at their own risk.

In an ideal society, people would be able to take any drug that helped them with whatever condition they were diagnosed with. But I dont think that will ever happen.

Even with the legal controlled drugs today, diversion of prescriptions is huge. It significantly affects the people who need the meds the most, which aligned with your thoughts that drugs should be legal because people need them and it will reduce the number of addicts going to prison for something they cannot help.

If treated as a medication rather than a flat out dangerous and useless drug in the medical community, medicine would greatly advance. But allowing non-licensed people to dispense them is unethical and dangerous in my opinion.

Ok, actually our view is probably pretty similar.

I wouldn't think it would be a good idea for anyone to be able to sell anything they want.

There would need to be serious quality control so I don't know what laws should be ideal for those deciding to sell or prescribed, but we actually seem to agree on pretty similar ideas.

 

[falsifiedhypothesi]

It's just the DEA swinging their dick around again, there has always been pushback ever since the first time they tried banning it. As long as people keep up the good fight it won't be banned.

I'm sure all the hype about it being banned is pretty good business for the kratom companies, although i'm sure it makes them very uneasy. Risk, Reward.

 

[Mycophile]

It's just the DEA swinging their dick around again, there has always been pushback ever since the first time they tried banning it. As long as people keep up the good fight it won't be banned

Interesting.

So what makes you think this isn't more serious than other times?

You don't think the DEA can just decide to emergency schedule it without anyone having a say like some others are saying?

 

[falsifiedhypothesi]

I don't really know much about the current state of the situation, and i'm not saying it shouldn't be taken seriously, but the will of the people has stopped the DEA from banning kratom for the past 2-3 years.

Unless there is some twisted propaganda like a specific death(s) or bogus medical "facts" that rally the public against kratom i think there is a good chance it will stay legal. There seems to be a good chunk of credible and well meaning people that defend the use of kratom for pain, and (i believe) to a lesser extent it's use for opiate addiction treatment.

That being said the DEA could just ignore all of this and emergency schedule it anyway. It's always a possibility that they ignore the outcry but they seem to be respecting, as much as they can respect the people they consider scum, the voice of the people in favor of keeping kratom legal and available.

 

[CfZrx]

So you support people actually GOING TO PRISON even for using hard drugs like Coke, Heroin and Meth??

I certainly do not.

I mean if we wanted to even get draconian I could IMAGINE someone supporting mandatory enforced rehab if someone is caught with one of those hard substances (and I DO NOT, I believe VERY firmly if you want to use something you should be allowed no matter what), but PRISON time?? Can't see a good argument for that.

I mean you mention cocaine, but I've used Coke just a few times in the past, and I believe HIGH doses of alcohol are probably more dangerous than small amounts of coke.

I don't think drugs being controlled makes a difference: people will always find a way to use them and all it does is clog the prison system.


So just because harder substances can SOMETIMES hurt people therefore people should not be allowed to use them in the privacy of their own homes if they want??

I disagree.

I believe if you are 18 years old and sitting in your own living room and not driving a car you should be able to shoot up heroin, and smoke a mixture of crack, meth and PCP all day long.

Using drugs does not hurt anyone other than the user.

I mean yeah, people will argue that family members and friends of the user are also "hurt" indirectly by either having to see the person suffer through addiction or support them monetarily or whatever, but that's still not then actually being physically damaged, and I don't believe that trumps a person's right to do what they want with their own body.

Tobacco and Alcohol are actually IMO more dangerous than the majority of hard drugs out there, aside from the worst like Heroin and Meth. I'm not even sure if Crack or coke is more dangerous than booze overall, probably a toss up.

But the amount of physical harm a person can do to themselves with something should not be a factor.

I mean IMO suicide should be legal so I'd be hypocritical to think someone should have the right to take their own life but not risk it to a lesser extent with hard drugs.

IMO all drugs should be regulated for purity, doctors should be health advisors rather than having the right to stop people from using they should inform them of the dangers so they know if they are willing to take them, and help mitigate damage through harm reduction like this forum, and then everyone who is 18 and over should be allowed to do what they want if not driving a car.

Even something as dangerous as Fentanyl: what would making it illegal do??

It already is scheduled and people die from it.

You know what would work??

Legalize pure heroin and regulate it so everyone who wants to use knows that it is NOT tainted with Fentanyl, and then watch the death toll from Fentanyl (and heroin as well) drop substantially.

Then use all the money currently implemented towards cops arresting drug users and the clogged up prison system to rehab facilities which could actually use Kratom to help wean these people along with suboxone and Methadone like they already do.

TEAR DOWN EVERY DAMN D.A.R.E sign that I see next to the road signs for EVERY TOWN in the U.S., and in their place put up signs for rehabs and clinics where people can legally get smaller, regulated doses of the opiates they crave in a safe environment or get help weaning off all drugs if they want.

Imprisoning people doesn't work, and I say even if you want to hurt yourself or end your own life, it's your body, your life and your choice.

I think if we decriminalized all drugs and put effort into harm reduction, reducing the stigma of drug use and treating it as a health/mental health issue and not a criminal one we'd save countless lives and ironically, by allowing people to use drugs we'd be able to decrease the overall amount of drugs used in the U.S./world wide 10 times more than the war on drugs ever did.

I do certainly think alcohol is one of the worst drugs a human can take. I am an alcoholic myself. It is more dangerous than many of the C1 drugs. And kratom is possibly about to be pushed into that classification of drugs.
Alcohol is certainly more harmful than kratom. It is more harmful than LSD and DMT and even some Schedule 1 opioids.
I understand your train of thought on this topic, prison for a substance disorder is not a suitable treatment. It is of societal benefit that some drugs do need to either not be legal, or under the care of a physician.
I wouldn't want a world where people could go buy LSD, cocaine, meth OTC (I know, it's a CII, but still). But I dont think they have 0 medicinal value. Just because something can be abused doesn't mean it isn't useful, like kratom.

damn, you guys need a teaspoon!

 

[Sertürner]

I dont understand?

 

[CfZrx]

I dont understand?

lol,I'm just fuckin around Proceed ...