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Ketamine and PCP model of schizophrenia

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BristolRob

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Feb 3, 2006
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What are peoples' opinions on the NMDA antagonist model of schizophrenia - my own feeling is that the 5-HT2A agonist drug model of acute and prodromal psychosis is reasonable but I've never considered the ketamine/PCP model very accurate. Are the ketamine induced negative symptoms really like the negative symptoms of schizophrenia? I doubt it very much
 
Schizophrenia is a catchall term for a broad array of symptoms that tend to cluster together. I don't think either model is very useful.

In my opinion, what's far more promising and worthy of study are the often profoundly beneficial effects of 5HT psychedelics and, to a lesser extent, certain NMDA antagonists, on healthy individuals who are able to use them with discipline.
 
Schizophrenia isn't bad...

Delirium, that is bad.

Schizophrenia, could mean anything from Opposes social norms in an obscene display to shaman. Depending on your definition of "crazy"

But Delirium, i would say to be much much much more closer to "schizophrenia,"
or at least what the model should look like.


Eat a Fist full of Datura, and tell me, if that is, or isn't schizophrenic feeling.
 
^ are you nucken futs...a fist full...some one will read that one day and go oh I wonder what that would be like...who remembers that trip report in Erowid where that kid ate like 3000 seeds or was it 300
 
datura! No

maybe this thread is long dead but I'll stress here as i've mentioned else where.............no Datura, PLEASE STAY AWAY!8o
Datura Is nothing like Schizophrenia.I'm about 98% certain about that...without being schizophrenic myself.
 
alrighty allow me explain myself further.

The general rational being most schizophrenics exude a personality that is somewhere between Manic and Psychotic.

Some of them have hallucinations, some of them don't

Generally the ones that don't are refered to as Schizoeffective. Its like a combo of Bi-polar and Schizophrenia, basically the ability to believe in things that aren't happening kind of as if they are experiencing it emotionally first hand even though nothing bad could be happening to them...


Now when you take a look at what delirium has to offer, i believe that it seems to fit the schizophrenia model better.

and i will use BZ as my "proof"
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/bz/bz.shtml look at it for yourself.
BZ is an Analogue if you will of Atropine or Belladonna, it was a gas created by the military.

here are just a few of the "things associated with it"

* clipped, flat speech
* slurred speech
* stereotyped utterances (fixation on short catch-phrases or figures of speech)
* frank hallucinations, elaborate interaction with hallucinations
* smoking and drinking of phantom cigarettes and beverages
* loss of appetite, thirst
* mydriasis (extreme pupilary dilation)
* confabulation (giving plausible-but-false explanations for bizarre behavior)
* micrographia (tiny writing, sometimes observed in schizophrenics)
* loss of sense of the passage of time

Now, that is just PART a small part of the list.

I believe that being delirious and i mean as batshit fucking delirious more so than anyone could imagine, is FAAAAAAAR closer to schizophrenia,

than ketamine, lsd, magic mushrooms, or even combinations of all three. Datura Scolopamine atropine belladonna, more so than any other recreational psychedelic. I believe fits the description of a Schizoid experience.



Call me wrong, but you aren't going to change my opinion on that.
 
^I think the issue was the phrase "Eat a fistful of Datura" and the potential effect it may have on people who are lacking good sense, not the degree to which Datura intoxication resembles schizophrenia...

in other words, use some discretion...
 
I think a doctor may say that Or a number of other things about Schizophrenia, but, their on the outside looking in,or also listening.
PCP, on the other hand IS something I can vouch for myself, and so could a lot of other people as being "akin to" Ketamine.

I've had PCP a number of times, as well as Ketamine AND a"fistfull"of Datura Stramonium. Who here could speak for schizophrenia?
 
My mother has/had schizophrenia - as do many members of my family - and they aren't delerious and act nothing like being on any psyche or dissociative. From how they describe schizophrenia (not that they ever say much about it) it doesn't sound anything like any of these things. I don't know for sure though because I'm not schizophrenic myself.

If I had to pick one that seems closest it would probably be ketamine but that would still be quite a stretch.
 
Uhm being schizoid is not the same as schizophrenic, psychonautical.
Recently I read someone's thesis on the ketamine and PCP model of schizophrenia that has a lot to do with a very reasonable sounding elaboration of the simple and frankly false dopamine hypothesis. Uniform dopamine disregulation does not fit with the positive and negative symptoms of schizophrenia, which is after all I think still a DSM-IV pathological syndrome. But the ketamine and PCP model uses an "assumption" of a split effect profile, not with a direct but indirect effect on the dopamine system and being split the same positive and negative effects are apparently seen and understood in the brain with ketamine and PCP as well as schizophrenia.
I'll try to quote some interesting parts from the paper later on.
 
Propyl Power said:
^I think the issue was the phrase "Eat a fistful of Datura" and the potential effect it may have on people who are lacking good sense, not the degree to which Datura intoxication resembles schizophrenia...

in other words, use some discretion...
Click to expand...

Sorry if I came across that way it was not my intention, there was no pun intended... just the "Eat a fistful of Datura" was a spin out man I would have to say that would be one trip I would not like to experience.

As for modern science and there answers to all types of mental afflictions I would have to say they very rarely get it right...I mean most "doctors" still think one dose of MDMA will destroy your brain for life and cause mass depression
 
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