Isn't meditative state the same, as dissociation?

[Renald]

I am not able to reach a meditative state, but from what i have read from experiences of other people it looks for me meditation resembles a dissociative state from a low dose of a non stimulating dissociative drug like ketamine. Can it be the organism during meditation is dissociating by endogenous dissociative or other unknown mechanism, what induces a tranquil semi out of body experience, what users practicing meditation notice?

 

[Lightwoman]

Meditation is about tuning in. Dissociation is about tuning out.

 

[aced126]

I'd say there definitely would be some neuroactive compounds/hormones/peptides that are involved in inducing that sort of state, and if they were to be isolated and administered intracranially (the peptides at least) then they would produce a behavioural effect/induce a state of consciousness that played a component in making up the entire state of consciousness during meditation. I do not however know what these compounds are or what they would target.

 

[Solipsis]

Meditation is about tuning in. Dissociation is about tuning out.

Appealing way to put it, but I'd say their relationship is more sophisticated than being opposite.

Meditation is about concentrating, paying attention to everything happening in your mind and in front of you but not engaging. So I wouldn't say it's as simple as an activity or passivity.
Dissociation ultimately leads to anaesthesia or amnesia etc, so indeed you tune out. But before you are completely tuned out, it's possible that thoughts are quelled allowing you to pay very pure attention to what is happening. However I found the Zen headspace from dissociatives (e.g. 3-MeO-PCP) to be fake since your ability to concentrate better only comes from being partially impaired cognitively, artificially.
That said I do think there is a cunning likeness between the states of consciousness where this seemingly paradoxical activity vs passivity (i.e. not running in circles after your own endless thought stream but just being there, sincerely and compassionately), even though they ultimately lead to very different places: clearheadedness for meditation vs anaesthesia / amnesia etc for dissociation.

I've found intense / prolonged meditation to be not unlike a light dose of LSD, with the effects happening naturally and at the pace of your own mind instead of catalyzed by the LSD. Psychedelics like LSD and also meditation do have a dissociative tendency and I believe it's part of the meditative process, just like perceptual distortion can be part of the meditative process. They are just side-effects along the way though, and have nothing to do with where you are led beyond them.

The reason probably has to do with how the mind reacts to phenomena like sensory deprivation, because (while also walking meditation or mantras and many other forms exist) the peaceful / monotonous or repetitive nature of the non-activity during meditative practice has effects that are pretty much brain-washing without writing on the tabula rasa. It's a great way to prime the mind, and brain-washing has such nasty connotations because of how it can be abused... but clearing up your mind tends to have great potential in general.

 

[Renald]

OK, if meditation is the opposite of dissociation, maybe there are some exogenic meditavive compounds? What kind of drug will mostly resemble the state achieved by meditation? I always thought this group is a dissociative.

 

[Solipsis]

OK, if meditation is the opposite of dissociation, maybe there are some exogenic meditavive compounds? What kind of drug will mostly resemble the state achieved by meditation? I always thought this group is a dissociative.

Psychedelics definitely. So many characteristics shared! But dosage is key, because hallucinations and distortions (while certainly possible with deep and prolonged meditation) are a few stations too far, and combining psychedelics with meditation can easily lead to mystical / very altered states of consciousness. But then one does not slip away from consciousness, on the contrary: awareness becomes exceedingly more intense but also less differentiated.

In appropriately low doses salvia is also very meditative in my opinion.

There has very recently been a study with MRI in people on LSD in the UK - the first time ever, and a lot of cross-chatter was noticed: normally latent activity becoming un-suppressed, the brain stem firing at will and many brain regions normally not in connection with each other or with the visual cortex now spill over their signalling. (Synaesthesia is an already known phenomena that also works by cross-chatter like that, synaesthesia is a possible effect from psychedelics, and people on - most of all 2C-E have called the state it can produce a sort of complete synaesthesia melding all cognitive and sensory activity together).
In some ways this is considered even further away from unconsciousness than sobriety, and it explains how people tripping have experiences of unity: unifying their brain activity more and more integrated.

With meditation normally it is an issue already that people must learn to merely witness their brain chatter. If using psychedelics or concentrating even more, this is taking on more than a lot of people can handle. That is why tiny doses of psychedelics are enough to catalyze any meditation.

 

[palmanita]

I for myself don't agree with dissociation being completely the opposite of a meditative state. I can't meditate in sober state due to over active mind, that I just can't slow down (also have adult ADD), but with the right dosage of a good dissociative - K, MXE - it is much easier to achieve kind of a meditative state, and then there are three levels I've reached yet (all with eyes closed, I am always aware of my body but it gets more and more distant):

1) Calm & Quiet - being surrounded / floating in soft dark space
2) Drifting through random worlds
3) (rarely) Being able to modify / construct these worlds

No true loss of the 'core' ego but a softening of the borders. I might have an odd reaction to dissociatives though, only get the psychotomimetic effects from the high potency ones like 3-MeO-PCP. Also I didn't reach a hole yet, even with 750mg of good ketamine in a single session of a few hours.

As I get strong anxiogenic / panic reaction and racing thoughts from psychedelics even in low dosage, making them unusable for me, and the opposite from dissociatives, maybe combining a threshold dosage of a serotonergic psychedelic & a moderate NMDA antag dose might lead to interesting results like Ibogaine?