• Select Your Topic Then Scroll Down
    Alcohol Bupe Benzos
    Cocaine Heroin Opioids
    RCs Stimulants Misc
    Harm Reduction All Topics Gabapentinoids
    Tired of your habit? Struggling to cope?
    Want to regain control or get sober?
    Visit our Recovery Support Forums

Misc Is brain damage from drugs a myth?

I wouldn't freak out in your shoes, you're likely not very damaged.
Opiates in general probably fucked your reward system, endorphin release etc, that's defo some brain damage, but manageable. Second is the Tachyphylaxis, also goes hand in hand with Opiates. And the Thyroid is number 3, could be very inactive after all those Opiates.

All that are pretty much ipso facto consequences from Opiate abuse, but afaik not permanent.

Brain Damage is usually more of an issue with (Meth)Amphetamines. Problem isn't really the drug itself, but staying awake for days all the time. There's also some development issues if drugs are taken before you are 21(since your brain is still growing and building until then)

Yes, I personally haven't found much literature suggesting brain damage from opioids. Just neuronal changes & testosterone changes. My testosterone was supposedly "normal" after 4-5 years on buprenorphine, when I had it checked last winter.


However, I use to use methamphetamine. So much, that I even gave myself rhabdomyolysis from it. Actually the rhabdo probably came from the fact that I didn't eat or drink anything for 5 days and laid in one spot on a hard floor masturbating non-stop. lol But I have been on too many meth binges in my history to count.

Was also a dextromethorphan addict. I've had a complete "out of body" experiences on dxm. Especially if I mixed high doses (1,000mg) with weed. I would end up in this "trip" where I felt like my body had shut down and I was just "floating" and it felt like my life was a movie coming to an ending. Out of body or near death experience, one of the two. I also used DXM multiple times a week for years & still some times do. lol

And I won't even get into my inhalant and mystery chemical abuse either. But let's just say, while heroin/opioids and cannabis were my "main, daily drugs", I still experimented & had periods of time where I was addicted to various other things, mainly methamphetamine, adderall, alcohol, dxm, etc.. etc..

I'm genuinely shocked that I'm not more handicap at this point, but hey I can't complain either! lol

I've also done lots of deadly combos. DXM & Tramadol, DXM & meth, DXM & effexor, even DXM+Vodka+Meth+Heroin+Klonopin. According to the literature, these combos should have killed me or caused some kind of damage. The DXM + Effexor combo gave me convulsions in my legs once though. And it was shortly after that, that my body jerks started.

My body jerks have come and gone ever since. Some weeks they're worse than others and some weeks I can go awhile with none at all. My fear is that it's going to develop into something worse when I'm much older. I thought for sure all the meth use may have damaged dopamine receptors or something (which often leads to movement disorders).

So if this neurologist isn't gonna keep looking further, than hopefully this other neurologist lady is willing to take the case & look further than my catscan.

Anyone have any thoughts or ideas of what would cause an abnormal (non-epileptic) EEG but then not show up in a catscan?
 
Last edited:
Hot damn, I too am so glad it wasn't a brain tumour, that's fucking terrifying (Arnie voice: "it's not a toom-a")
Also so good to hear that you aren't as bad off as you used to be!! So sorry about your sister, no family should have to go through that.


I don't feel qualified to offer absolutes or definitive answers to some of your questions, as I'm getting out of my depth and don't want to do you a disservice, but you might find the info in this link to be useful? :)

Were it me, I would think that it sounds like it might be worth bringing up neuropsychological evaluation with my doc, if I were looking for ways to proceed forward (I wouldn't be satisfied with the info you've gotten so far either, honestly)
Not medical advice!! Just a thought.
Best of luck with the movement specialist, I hope she can shed a little light on the matter.


Be well, friend. You sound like an intelligent and thoughtful person, I wish you all the best and hope you can gain some satisfying insight into your condition. My pleasure, re providing insight, always happy to try and help.
Very thankful for your insight and thoughts my friend! :)
Many people in my close circle are always telling me how smart I am, but hell, I didn't even finish highschool. I am terrible at math and paying attention. lol

I did develop an intense interest in reading about & studying pharmacology, drugs, biology, etc.. years & years ago and taught myself a lot of things.


So from what I gather from everyone, the 'brain damage' from drugs comes in the form of neuronal changes, rather than the typical "brain damage from being hit in the head" kind of brain damage.

So what kind of neuro-imaging would be required to look at drug-induced neuronal changes? Or is there no way to actually look?
Could the use of drugs like methamphetamine, which is neurotoxic in the higher recreational dosages, cause neuronal changes (or destroy dopamine receptors) that then lead to movement disorders or neurological issues?


Sorry for all the questions here! I love BL though and think it is an amazing place to learn, share and even just have conversation (which is a form of harm reduction all of it's own), so thank you to everyone!!!!
 
Yes, I personally haven't found much literature suggesting brain damage from opioids. Just neuronal changes & testosterone changes. My testosterone was supposedly "normal" after 4-5 years on buprenorphine, when I had it checked last winter.


However, I use to use methamphetamine. So much, that I even gave myself rhabdomyolysis from it. Actually the rhabdo probably came from the fact that I didn't eat or drink anything for 5 days and laid in one spot on a hard floor masturbating non-stop. lol But I have been on too many meth binges in my history to count.

Was also a dextromethorphan addict. I've had a complete "out of body" experiences on dxm. Especially if I mixed high doses (1,000mg) with weed. I would end up in this "trip" where I felt like my body had shut down and I was just "floating" and it felt like my life was a movie coming to an ending. Out of body or near death experience, one of the two. I also used DXM multiple times a week for years & still some times do. lol

And I won't even get into my inhalant and mystery chemical abuse either. But let's just say, while heroin/opioids and cannabis were my "main, daily drugs", I still experimented & had periods of time where I was addicted to various other things, mainly methamphetamine, adderall, alcohol, dxm, etc.. etc..

I'm genuinely shocked that I'm not more handicap at this point, but hey I can't complain either! lol

I've also done lots of deadly combos. DXM & Tramadol, DXM & meth, DXM & effexor, even DXM+Vodka+Meth+Heroin+Klonopin. According to the literature, these combos should have killed me or caused some kind of damage. The DXM + Effexor combo gave me convulsions in my legs once though. And it was shortly after that, that my body jerks started.

My body jerks have come and gone ever since. Some weeks they're worse than others and some weeks I can go awhile with none at all. My fear is that it's going to develop into something worse when I'm much older. I thought for sure all the meth use may have damaged dopamine receptors or something (which often leads to movement disorders).

So if this neurologist isn't gonna keep looking further, than hopefully this other neurologist lady is willing to take the case & look further than my catscan.
I mean Opiates slowly do make it like instinct to take more opiates, as I'm sure you have experienced over the years, that's some serious neuronal pathology. They seem to rewire your entire brain to revolve around essentially taking foreign opiates over producing body-own opiates. That's a real cunt to deal with, and the reason why many cannot live without some form of maintenance.

Yeah those Methamphetamine binges, really depends how often you did it. Your brain is going to be able to recover from a few, maybe even all of those binges, especially if you had longer pauses inbetween each. There could however be some damage to your short-term memory from that.

I only have experience with DXM in the form of cough syrup when I was actually sick, and even then I prefer honey, lemons & chamomile. I'm personally not a fan of dissociatives, and there's lots of side-effects to them, usually.

Upper-downer combinations usually affect the circulatory system a lot, and the brain. So the body jerks could be because of those combos.
I have small, relatively unnoticeable body-ticks myself, but it is more of an OCD.

Anyway, really stick with finding out what's happening. A late friend of mine, he died last year, had issues with seizures after doing upper-downer combos a lot. This could be potentially very dangerous, and you should look out for yourself. I hope you will hear good news, but the body jerks sound kind of worrying. Could be psychosomatic though, any stress lately?
 
I mean Opiates slowly do make it like instinct to take more opiates, as I'm sure you have experienced over the years, that's some serious neuronal pathology. They seem to rewire your entire brain to revolve around essentially taking foreign opiates over producing body-own opiates. That's a real cunt to deal with, and the reason why many cannot live without some form of maintenance.

Yeah those Methamphetamine binges, really depends how often you did it. Your brain is going to be able to recover from a few, maybe even all of those binges, especially if you had longer pauses inbetween each. There could however be some damage to your short-term memory from that.

I only have experience with DXM in the form of cough syrup when I was actually sick, and even then I prefer honey, lemons & chamomile. I'm personally not a fan of dissociatives, and there's lots of side-effects to them, usually.

Upper-downer combinations usually affect the circulatory system a lot, and the brain. So the body jerks could be because of those combos.
I have small, relatively unnoticeable body-ticks myself, but it is more of an OCD.

Anyway, really stick with finding out what's happening. A late friend of mine, he died last year, had issues with seizures after doing upper-downer combos a lot. This could be potentially very dangerous, and you should look out for yourself. I hope you will hear good news, but the body jerks sound kind of worrying. Could be psychosomatic though, any stress lately?
Thank you my friend!

Oh yes, lots of stress. My mother was diagnosed with cancer in 2019 and I spent a year taking her to the city to get treatment & running everything myself. Then we got kicked out of our apartment and she moved in with my sister a few states away and I ended up moving in with an ex of mine to keep my suboxone doctor. Well that ex turns out to be pretty verbally abusive. And then my mother ended up passing away on Mothers Day of this year after a fecal impaction.

I also lost my oldest sister in 2019 from a lifetime of alcoholism.
And then throw the whole pandemic stuff ontop of it and hell yeah I've been stressed! lol

Although I have had these body jerks going on about 5 years now though. And they normally happen when my body is at rest. They started happening one day out of nowhere and I've had them ever since. It was before I got on all the meds I'm on now. They mostly happen when I'm laying down and trying to get comfortable to go to bed. They're not hypnogogic jerks though because they don't happen as i'm falling asleep, but rather long before I even get to that point. And some times during the day, when I'm upright, I'll get random jerks and head tics.

The ones that happen at night usually involved some times just a leg or a limb jerking. And then some times it's my entire body, like I'm being electrocuted. Right before a jerk, I can feel all the muscles in my body stiffen up really tight and then my body has like a giant hiccup. Some weeks I get them every night and so severely that I'm afraid to even lay down. And then some weeks, I can fall asleep smoothly like they were never a problem at all. Some times though when they're really bad, I feel like I'm gonna lose control over all of my muscles. And the jerking can be so intense that it's painful.

I've been diagnosed with treatment resistant major depressive disorder, anxiety/panic disorder, agoraphobia, borderline personality disorder & a "conversion disorder" (im assuming this is about my body jerks). And of course "substance use disorder" and "opioid dependence".

I do have severe, debilitating anxiety and have heard that anxiety can cause myoclonic jerks. But the jerks only happen when my body is at rest, rather than when I'm anxious or having a panic attack. Perhaps the startle mechanisms in my brain have been fucked by the lifelong panic.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. :( I thought upper-downer combos were only really dangerous because the upper doesn't allow you to feel that you've taken too much of the downer. I've done upper-downer combos for a long time. Even now a days, I take ephedrine daily with my buprenorphine because I find the mild stimulation from the ephedrine makes the buprenorphine feel slightly stronger. Although I'm aware ephedrine is not a classic "stimulant", but I no longer have access to traditional stimulants or street meth.

Either way, I'll keep looking for answers! :)
 
Thank you my friend!

Oh yes, lots of stress. My mother was diagnosed with cancer in 2019 and I spent a year taking her to the city to get treatment & running everything myself. Then we got kicked out of our apartment and she moved in with my sister a few states away and I ended up moving in with an ex of mine to keep my suboxone doctor. Well that ex turns out to be pretty verbally abusive. And then my mother ended up passing away on Mothers Day of this year after a fecal impaction.

I also lost my oldest sister in 2019 from a lifetime of alcoholism.
And then throw the whole pandemic stuff ontop of it and hell yeah I've been stressed! lol

Although I have had these body jerks going on about 5 years now though. And they normally happen when my body is at rest. They started happening one day out of nowhere and I've had them ever since. It was before I got on all the meds I'm on now. They mostly happen when I'm laying down and trying to get comfortable to go to bed. They're not hypnogogic jerks though because they don't happen as i'm falling asleep, but rather long before I even get to that point. And some times during the day, when I'm upright, I'll get random jerks and head tics.

The ones that happen at night usually involved some times just a leg or a limb jerking. And then some times it's my entire body, like I'm being electrocuted. Right before a jerk, I can feel all the muscles in my body stiffen up really tight and then my body has like a giant hiccup. Some weeks I get them every night and so severely that I'm afraid to even lay down. And then some weeks, I can fall asleep smoothly like they were never a problem at all. Some times though when they're really bad, I feel like I'm gonna lose control over all of my muscles. And the jerking can be so intense that it's painful.

I've been diagnosed with treatment resistant major depressive disorder, anxiety/panic disorder, agoraphobia, borderline personality disorder & a "conversion disorder" (im assuming this is about my body jerks). And of course "substance use disorder" and "opioid dependence".

I do have severe, debilitating anxiety and have heard that anxiety can cause myoclonic jerks. But the jerks only happen when my body is at rest, rather than when I'm anxious or having a panic attack. Perhaps the startle mechanisms in my brain have been fucked by the lifelong panic.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. :( I thought upper-downer combos were only really dangerous because the upper doesn't allow you to feel that you've taken too much of the downer. I've done upper-downer combos for a long time. Even now a days, I take ephedrine daily with my buprenorphine because I find the mild stimulation from the ephedrine makes the buprenorphine feel slightly stronger. Although I'm aware ephedrine is not a classic "stimulant", but I no longer have access to traditional stimulants or street meth.

Either way, I'll keep looking for answers! :)
My condolences. I hope you have someone to talk to about all this. Speaking to anyone you can trust helps a lot.

I'm a bit torn. What you describe sounds like actual electric impulses from your brain gone wrong. That does tip the hat towards a conversion disorder. Essentially your body misunderstanding signals from your brain (and vice versa)

However it could be many other things. Not enough movement through the day, some form of OCD, the stress, tiny seizures; hence why I'm urging you to stay in contact with the neurologist to find out.

You can do a lot by yourself already, no matter the neurologist though. Try to get your CNS to regenerate a little: Do a work out every day, even if it's just 10 - 15 minutes. Eat lemons. Vegetables & fruit in general, remember that colour can be an indicator of what minerals and vitamines you're gonna get, so always pick a full rainbow of colours. Fish & oil, very important. Seeds, nuts(not peanuts), salad.

I am not shitting you about the lemons, btw. These things are the fruit of the Almighty Aphrodite.
0.1 cl of lemon juice a day, mixed with 1.9 cl water so the citric acid doesn't fuck up your stomach over time, can do a lot of good to your body and brain. Also tastes amazing, been doing it for years
 
My condolences. I hope you have someone to talk to about all this. Speaking to anyone you can trust helps a lot.

I'm a bit torn. What you describe sounds like actual electric impulses from your brain gone wrong. That does tip the hat towards a conversion disorder. Essentially your body misunderstanding signals from your brain (and vice versa)

However it could be many other things. Not enough movement through the day, some form of OCD, the stress, tiny seizures; hence why I'm urging you to stay in contact with the neurologist to find out.

You can do a lot by yourself already, no matter the neurologist though. Try to get your CNS to regenerate a little: Do a work out every day, even if it's just 10 - 15 minutes. Eat lemons. Vegetables & fruit in general, remember that colour can be an indicator of what minerals and vitamines you're gonna get, so always pick a full rainbow of colours. Fish & oil, very important. Seeds, nuts(not peanuts), salad.

I am not shitting you about the lemons, btw. These things are the fruit of the Almighty Aphrodite.
0.1 cl of lemon juice a day, mixed with 1.9 cl water so the citric acid doesn't fuck up your stomach over time, can do a lot of good to your body and brain. Also tastes amazing, been doing it for years
Thank you my friend!

I absolutely love lemon water from time to time! Have always read that it's really good at cleaning you out and even helps fight diseases.
I have been doing this for years now! And even got my mom hooked on it for a bit and her cancer went into remission during this time. (It did end up coming back tho unfortunately). So I believe there's no harm in adding more lemon/lime juice in your diet.

I will do my best. I will have to wait and see if this other neurologist is willing to take me. If they don't, I'm not sure who else to talk to or what to do.

And yes, these jerks almost feel "electric" honestly. And the EEG I had done was a bunch of electrodes attached to my head. If my CT scan is normal, than what in the hell would be making my brainwaves abnormal on an EEG?

It's all so very confusing. Unfortunately I don't think the neurologist listened to me or cared much (he had a very disrespectful, better-than-thou attitude with me the one & only time I saw him). He didn't even care to hear about how they started or anything. He did some "tests" on me, mostly resistance & reflex tests (like pushing his hand away from mine) and straight up said "if you had anything wrong with your brain, you wouldn't have been able to do that (yes he said this)". So I'm not sure I trust his expertise.

Ironically I asked him right after that "Can anxiety cause myoclonic jerks?".. And he replied "yes". And I thought to myself (well gee, anxiety is in the brain lol). So I dunno.

I appreciate it my friend! Thank you so much! :) <3
 
More or less EVERY POLY ADDICT with 5+ years in the game has 100% caused ATLEAST SOME DAMAGE. For me pregabalin was the worst.


Currently have a gabapentin dependence. The rebound body aches & nerve pain that comes from not taking it are no joke!
 
It's all so very confusing. Unfortunately I don't think the neurologist listened to me or cared much (he had a very disrespectful, better-than-thou attitude with me the one & only time I saw him). He didn't even care to hear about how they started or anything. He did some "tests" on me, mostly resistance & reflex tests (like pushing his hand away from mine) and straight up said "if you had anything wrong with your brain, you wouldn't have been able to do that (yes he said this)". So I'm not sure I trust his expertise.
Who is this amateur? "Something wrong with the brain" is a pretty fucking wide spectrum.
 
I would throw in the point of tolerance, receptor modulation etc. as well as plasticity. Much of what feels like damage turns out to be either tolerance related receptor dysregulation or heals over time. This, unfortunately, doesn't mean that actual lasting damage doesn't happen, it will, and the beginnings of that won't feel like anything because our mind is like a very advanced operating system running on very advanced, decentral hardware (our neurons) - some of them fail, no problem, the network will scale. But let too many fail at once and we have a big problem. This also means that what we feel isn't the real state but an emulation of it, and dysregulated receptors might feel more harsh than actual damage which is masked by re-scales of our natural AI..

I'm pretty sure that my 3-year long dissociative binge cost me some neurons, unfortunately, but what I feel is problems with attention and memory - both of which were here before. Actually I might be more relaxed now even without drugs. Not sure whether it was worth it tho.
 
I would throw in the point of tolerance, receptor modulation etc. as well as plasticity. Much of what feels like damage turns out to be either tolerance related receptor dysregulation or heals over time. This, unfortunately, doesn't mean that actual lasting damage doesn't happen, it will, and the beginnings of that won't feel like anything because our mind is like a very advanced operating system running on very advanced, decentral hardware (our neurons) - some of them fail, no problem, the network will scale. But let too many fail at once and we have a big problem. This also means that what we feel isn't the real state but an emulation of it, and dysregulated receptors might feel more harsh than actual damage which is masked by re-scales of our natural AI..

I'm pretty sure that my 3-year long dissociative binge cost me some neurons, unfortunately, but what I feel is problems with attention and memory - both of which were here before. Actually I might be more relaxed now even without drugs. Not sure whether it was worth it tho.
Always appreciate your insight plumbus!

If you had to guess, do you think my body jerks are related to all the drugs I use to do (and still do) or is it most likely something else is going on?
If a CT scan doesn't pick up any of this kind of damage then it's possible it could be from drug use. But unfortunately I repeatedly asked the receptionist and neurologist this, if it were possible that drugs caused this and they just sat there in silence like I asked them the origins of the universe.



Who is this amateur? "Something wrong with the brain" is a pretty fucking wide spectrum.
It absolutely is! This guys condescending attitude and contradictions were concerning and made me uncomfortable. I can't even pronounce his name either, so..
 
Never Tell Professionals About Drug Use(tm). Never. Ever. Even addiction counselors don't understand the reality of drug use, they do understand addiction but not voluntary use. Specially don't tell any psychiatrist, neurologist, general practicioner etc. about drugs - which, unfortunately, means that they won't be able to correctly diagnose stuff but to my experience the knowledge of drug use skews their judgement much more than not knowing about it would hinder their diagnosis. Usually with physical stuff they don't need the info about drug use but I too had some pretty hefty ailments where I'd loved to have a real professional diagnosis but either chose not to visit a doc's or him diagnosing me some bullshit.

Sorry, I can't tell you any real info about the body jerks - but did they persist for longer time (months, years) into abstinence? Sorry, I have the bad habit of reading threads from the back.
 
Never Tell Professionals About Drug Use(tm). Never. Ever. Even addiction counselors don't understand the reality of drug use, they do understand addiction but not voluntary use. Specially don't tell any psychiatrist, neurologist, general practicioner etc. about drugs - which, unfortunately, means that they won't be able to correctly diagnose stuff but to my experience the knowledge of drug use skews their judgement much more than not knowing about it would hinder their diagnosis. Usually with physical stuff they don't need the info about drug use but I too had some pretty hefty ailments where I'd loved to have a real professional diagnosis but either chose not to visit a doc's or him diagnosing me some bullshit.

Sorry, I can't tell you any real info about the body jerks - but did they persist for longer time (months, years) into abstinence? Sorry, I have the bad habit of reading threads from the back.
I wouldn't normally tell professionals about my drug use, but because I've been on Suboxone, it will show up in my files usually that I'm on buprenorphine and see an addiction specialist. So I tend to just be straight forward and honest with them. I have a pretty good suboxone doctor actually. They listen and haven't really judged me about anything. Hell, my sub doctor acknowledges that opioids help my mental health. Unfortunately tho, she just handles my dependence, pain management and mental health, but for neurology and other issues, I have to go elsewhere, where they'll usually see that i'm on suboxone or in addiction treatment on my files anyway.

It does skew the judgement of some doctors. Not all of them but some. Ironically they tried pushing an ativan prescription on me twice, even after telling them I was already receiving clonazepam from my addiction specialists. They acted confused and shocked like they couldn't understand why I didn't want the ativan prescription. Why I would need ativan to do an EEG or a cat-scan is beyond me. I know benzos can help with myoclonic jerks, but they were aware I was already on a potent anti-convulsant (which clonazepam doesn't stop the jerks, but makes them more tolerable at least, so I can pass out).

I have a hard time trusting medical professionals now as it is. I feel like this whole experience with this neurologist has been a mix of judgement + trying to turn me into a repeat customer.


And yes, the body jerks actually started during a period of short abstinence about 5 years ago and have come and gone ever since. I may or may not have been in withdrawal at the time or possible high on something else when they started, it's hard to remember now. But I do remember them happening out of the blue one night (not long after I had convulsions in my legs from mixing venlafaxine & high dose dextromethorphan). And I've continued to have them since. Except some weeks, they don't happen at all or are very small and then some weeks they happen every night and can be incredibly intense and scary.

Usually I'm able to eventually fall asleep, but it feels like I have to be electrocuted a handful of times before I get there. lol
 
Last edited:
I have a hard time trusting medical professionals now as it is.
Same here. You go to 5 different professionals, you get 5 different opinions out of which all five were predictable and probably wrong. Also, as you say, some want you to come back while others try to deter you (and some seem not to know which of these). I once had a psychiatry doc prescribe me everything I wanted from methylphenidate over memantine to amphetamine but my ex gf messed him up by telling some exacerbated stuff. Also he overdid himself and had at least one if not two heart attacks and is cutting down on his work. Overall my experiences with docs are bad and I hope never to be in a position again where life or death depends on some quack, and/or psychiatric isolation which is just torture in its finest.

Your condition is something where one indeed would expect docs to investigate further than just prescribe Ativan. I had some weird stuff too and once 6(!) docs sitting around me and none of them having a clue, I would have said it was an anticholinergic condition which was limited to the body only (an adulterant not permitting the blood brain barrier) but really don't know and they just sat there asking stupid questions and then leaving me alone, they didn't have the balls to tell that they didn't know better.

Also I'd say that drug induced neurotoxicity happens, but it's not what people imagine (holes in your brain; ket+stim[together] abusers show some of them but it's not sure how much of it is reversible). This commercial with "this is your brain on drugs" did heavy damage.

I wish you to find a decent doctor @DeathIndustrial88 and think you're on the right path but possibility is that you need to diagnose yourself. How do you react to pregabalin/gabapentin?

Convulsions from venl;afaxine + DXM very likely was a serotonergic and/or noradrenergic condition like serotonin syndrome (specially when you also had fever). But have to admit I know little about seizures and related stuff, never had one and I certainly over-did it with DXM + antidepressant and other stuff. Oh, once in my adolescence I did DXM + the first dose of 20mg paroxetine ever (stupid, stupid) and this was the last time I had full color visuals from any drug besides recently 1cP-LSD but even with that others get more visuals. It messed something up and I would love to know what but probably never will. Don't seem to have other symptoms though and don't pinpoint on the DXM, some people have weekly seizures and intact cognition.

Oh, jerks when falling asleep are kinda common, this is something I had too but it was on antipsychotics - which lets me think whether you actually have a form of tardive dyskinesia. Don't worry about that but it might maybe help you find a treatment. Ever did anticholinergic drugs?
 
Same here. You go to 5 different professionals, you get 5 different opinions out of which all five were predictable and probably wrong. Also, as you say, some want you to come back while others try to deter you (and some seem not to know which of these). I once had a psychiatry doc prescribe me everything I wanted from methylphenidate over memantine to amphetamine but my ex gf messed him up by telling some exacerbated stuff. Also he overdid himself and had at least one if not two heart attacks and is cutting down on his work. Overall my experiences with docs are bad and I hope never to be in a position again where life or death depends on some quack, and/or psychiatric isolation which is just torture in its finest.

Your condition is something where one indeed would expect docs to investigate further than just prescribe Ativan. I had some weird stuff too and once 6(!) docs sitting around me and none of them having a clue, I would have said it was an anticholinergic condition which was limited to the body only (an adulterant not permitting the blood brain barrier) but really don't know and they just sat there asking stupid questions and then leaving me alone, they didn't have the balls to tell that they didn't know better.

Also I'd say that drug induced neurotoxicity happens, but it's not what people imagine (holes in your brain; ket+stim[together] abusers show some of them but it's not sure how much of it is reversible). This commercial with "this is your brain on drugs" did heavy damage.

I wish you to find a decent doctor @DeathIndustrial88 and think you're on the right path but possibility is that you need to diagnose yourself. How do you react to pregabalin/gabapentin?

Convulsions from venl;afaxine + DXM very likely was a serotonergic and/or noradrenergic condition like serotonin syndrome (specially when you also had fever). But have to admit I know little about seizures and related stuff, never had one and I certainly over-did it with DXM + antidepressant and other stuff. Oh, once in my adolescence I did DXM + the first dose of 20mg paroxetine ever (stupid, stupid) and this was the last time I had full color visuals from any drug besides recently 1cP-LSD but even with that others get more visuals. It messed something up and I would love to know what but probably never will. Don't seem to have other symptoms though and don't pinpoint on the DXM, some people have weekly seizures and intact cognition.

Oh, jerks when falling asleep are kinda common, this is something I had too but it was on antipsychotics - which lets me think whether you actually have a form of tardive dyskinesia. Don't worry about that but it might maybe help you find a treatment. Ever did anticholinergic drugs?

Thank you for your response!

Is benadryl or cyclobenzaprine anticholinergic? I have stupidly done "benadryl trips" in my early 20's, which was incredibly stupid, but I was self medicating and self destructive. They were incredibly uncomfortable and I would never do it again now a days, I do still take benadryl once in awhile to kick up my maintenance meds. I have taken seroquel a hand full of times in the past as well (but they weren't prescribed to me) for meth come downs. But not for a very long or extended period of time.

Tardive Dyskinesia has crossed my mind too. Jerks are definitely common when falling asleep, I've seen a lot of my partners have body jerks in their sleep or just as they were falling asleep. Mine happen though just when my body is at rest. Like I can lay down and get really really comfortable and still be awake and watching something on tv and have a jerk. Some times they happen during the day when I'm sitting upright or walking but they are less prominent or noticeable. Also I don't recall ever having this issue growing up in my teens or early 20's, it just sort of appeared after awhile and became very noticeable, which is what made me think that it wasn't just a natural sleep-jerk.

Serotonin syndrome from that one time with DXM & effexor also crossed my mind. I knew it was a bad idea to do it that day since I had taken my Effexor (ER too) but I stupidly did it anyway while in self destruct mode and instead of getting any kind of trip, my legs started shaking violently and uncontrollably. It was like my legs wanted to retract & I couldn't even stand or walk. Even my toes were curling up by themselves. So I called for my mom to come to my room and she did and I knew that she had clonazepam and told her to bring me one right away. She did and I laid on the floor and let it melt under my tongue. I don't recall having a fever or anything but DXM causes so many nasty side effects that I might have had one and didn't even know it. Within an hour the klonopin had kicked in and although I still felt a little off, I was able to walk again & my legs stopped shaking. This would have been mid-2016. It was shortly after that, that I started noticing these intense body jerks.

I was also a severe tramadol addict. I got hooked on high dose tramadol (400-800mg) a day at the age of 19 (back in 2008ish). I went through withdrawal from tramadol every single month from the age of 19 to about 28 or 29 years old. Every month I'd get the script, binge for 2 weeks and then withdrawal for a week or two. It was around 2015 that I was introduced to heroin. And then from 2015-2019 it was back and forth between tramadol and heroin withdrawal or withdrawal from both. Eventually I got on buprenorphine.

But it was during these withdrawal periods that I became stupid enough to do all these things, just to make the pain go away.
Ontop of that, I also had my alcohol and methamphetamine binges. I quit alcohol but have gone on meth binges from the age of 16 to my 30's. Some times it's just for a few days and some times for a few weeks. But I have stopped doing it now.

I'm very sorry to hear about your shitty doctor experiences. I've had many as well. Some times I've had to correct doctors or stop doctors from prescribing me things that could kill me with stuff i'm already taking. lol It's ridiculous. They HATE it too when I correct them. And I really shouldn't have to. Unfortunately asking them questions or pushing them to look for things makes them think your "challenging their education", if you know what I mean.

I have asked a doctor to check me for lymes disease and he literally laughed at me and said "you don't have lymes disease".
I haven't been checked for it, but I have had full blood work panels done that were all "normal".
I do remember getting bit by a tick right before these started too. But I do not recall the common "bullseye rash" or anything else out of the ordinary.

So we all get left to our own means to figure shit out.
My sub doc has now pushed Vraylar on me, which is antipsychotic and knowing damn well I have body jerks, I think that was a bad idea.

I've noticed that body jerks are less prominent when I'm on stimulants, if that means anything.

You're very intelligent and seem like a great person plumbus! I'm glad you're still here with us! I hope to never end up in that situation either.

Everyone here is great! Thank you for your time, your information, your experiences and everything! @December Flower , @dus_aster @plumbus-nine & anyone else I've forgot to mention!
 
Last edited:
Same here. You go to 5 different professionals, you get 5 different opinions out of which all five were predictable and probably wrong. Also, as you say, some want you to come back while others try to deter you (and some seem not to know which of these). I once had a psychiatry doc prescribe me everything I wanted from methylphenidate over memantine to amphetamine but my ex gf messed him up by telling some exacerbated stuff. Also he overdid himself and had at least one if not two heart attacks and is cutting down on his work. Overall my experiences with docs are bad and I hope never to be in a position again where life or death depends on some quack, and/or psychiatric isolation which is just torture in its finest.

Your condition is something where one indeed would expect docs to investigate further than just prescribe Ativan. I had some weird stuff too and once 6(!) docs sitting around me and none of them having a clue, I would have said it was an anticholinergic condition which was limited to the body only (an adulterant not permitting the blood brain barrier) but really don't know and they just sat there asking stupid questions and then leaving me alone, they didn't have the balls to tell that they didn't know better.

Also I'd say that drug induced neurotoxicity happens, but it's not what people imagine (holes in your brain; ket+stim[together] abusers show some of them but it's not sure how much of it is reversible). This commercial with "this is your brain on drugs" did heavy damage.

I wish you to find a decent doctor @DeathIndustrial88 and think you're on the right path but possibility is that you need to diagnose yourself. How do you react to pregabalin/gabapentin?

Convulsions from venl;afaxine + DXM very likely was a serotonergic and/or noradrenergic condition like serotonin syndrome (specially when you also had fever). But have to admit I know little about seizures and related stuff, never had one and I certainly over-did it with DXM + antidepressant and other stuff. Oh, once in my adolescence I did DXM + the first dose of 20mg paroxetine ever (stupid, stupid) and this was the last time I had full color visuals from any drug besides recently 1cP-LSD but even with that others get more visuals. It messed something up and I would love to know what but probably never will. Don't seem to have other symptoms though and don't pinpoint on the DXM, some people have weekly seizures and intact cognition.

Oh, jerks when falling asleep are kinda common, this is something I had too but it was on antipsychotics - which lets me think whether you actually have a form of tardive dyskinesia. Don't worry about that but it might maybe help you find a treatment. Ever did anticholinergic drugs?
Shit, I forgot to mention.....

My doctor prescribed me the gaba for pain related to my depression. At least I've always thought it was my depression, but for years now, I go through periods where I wake up every day and it feels like I've been doing full blown body work outs. Just sore, achey, unmotivated.

The gabapentin really helped this. In the beginning anyway. But after getting on it and taking it daily as prescribed, it has stopped working as well. It still gets rid of some of my nerve pain and tingling, but in the beginning it even gave me energy, creativity, made me more social, etc... but all of that has disappeared now that tolerance has been established.

So it helps. Only been on it for a few months now though. Doesn't help with the body jerks at all though
 
I was Rx'd gabapentin for a long time, and I found that it's an extremely useful medication- but only if not taken daily. For me, at least. Tolerance build-up to the anxiolytic and anti-RLS effects (the reason for my prescription) occurred rapidly and predictably; dose for a week straight, and I'd have to double up my dose by the following week, if not sooner. Obviously, this led to me running out early, month after month.

What I ended up doing was taking it every two-four days as needed; plenty of days off each month. -That- allowed me to get the most out of it and avoid running out. My doc never quite wrapped his head around using it that way, insisting it needed to build up to a certain level to exert an effect (like, say, an SSRI), but I always found gabapentin worked best if used for acute treatment of anxiety/RLS/hangovers.

Are you familiar with it's odd pharmacokinetic profile?
The more you take, the less it does; 100mg has around 80% bioavailability, but 800mg only had around 34% BA (stats: wikipedia). Has to do with transporter saturation, if I recall correctly. You can circumvent this and keep the BA high (and thus, avoid waste) by staggering your doses.
ie, take 100-300mg, wait an hour, take another 100-300, wait an hour, take another, etc etc.
As well, it's bioavailability is affected by your stomach contents. If you can eat a fatty snack (peanut butter was my go-to) with your dose, it'll work a little better.
Finally, it's also been postulated that naproxen sodium (trade name Aleve, in North America) has a positive impact on BA; I never noticed much difference, but there is one, hypothetically.

And hey, thanks for the lovely shout-out! I'm glad BL could provide some insight/a starting point for how one might choose to proceed. Thanks for opening up about what you're experiencing, it's always helpful to read someone else's experiences to put my own into perspective.
Ah yes, Im familiar with gabapentin's weird pharmacology. :)

Strangely at first, gabapentin seemed to work & make me feel really GOOD for almost a month straight, even with daily dosing. But after that 1 month, it completely lost it. And it's been really hard to stop taking, even just for a day or two.

Unfortunately since buprenorphine is no longer enough for me, but I don't know where to get heroin/full agonists anymore, I've been taking these main meds daily - buprenorphine, gabapentin, ephedrine hcl, klonopin & either delta 8 or delta 9 thc if it's available. I've been stuck doing this now since around June or July. I don't think daily ephedrine is good for me, but I've tried expressing to my sub doc that I'm having too much trouble with motivation, energy, body pains and just low mood in general and would like to b on a stimulant but she's been reluctant to prescribe one, so I've had to take ephedrine everyday, even though it doesn't really do a whole lot. But I am a "drug addict" and am one of those people who feels like they NEED to take things every day or i'll go crazy or end up doing something stupid like drinking alcohol like crazy instead.

But now i'm just tolerant to all of those things and have gone right back to feeling miserable everyday. And any time I try to skip some of them to lower tolerance, I can barely make it through the whole day. I dunno why. I feel like I have to take all that stuff just to feel normalized. And even then, it's still not enough for me to feel better.

I'm so tired of not being able to try other options or medicate with things I know will work and pull me out of my depression. But that's lovely USA, the fake land of the free, I guess.
 
It's a struggle, my friend. Such a struggle. It's exhausting managing dependence. Doctors rarely seem to appreciate just how much will-power and energy it takes to maintain an even keel when you're someone with a history of drug-use; it takes everything out of you.
I'm as American as I am Canadian (by lineage, I mean), and I love aspects of the US, but I hear you about it not really being "the land of the free". Seems like things are looking up, though, in some states at least? But I really feel what you're saying; many times have I lamented the fact that I can't se

If you ever get a chance to try cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT), I've found it really helpful for making my depression easier to handle (I was diagnosed with persistent depressive disorder in my early 20s). Which, in turn, makes it a little easier to keep my drug-use within healthy-ish parameters, and gives me a little more energy to work with each day.

It's a nice alternative to talk-therapy in that it provides you with the tools needed to cope with depression; the whole "teach a man to fish" vs "give a man a fish" thing. Talk-therapy is useful, but it gets expensive fast, and I've found CBT to be much more cost-effective with much longer-lasting benefits. It took me a while to make using those tools a habitual thing, but my quality of life improved significantly once I did. You can also probably find a CBT work-book online for free, or torrent one.

A lot of CBT tools might not work for you (that was the case with me), but it's more about providing you with a big 'ol toolkit and letting you play around with different things until you amass a collection that works for you.
It's also usually conducted in a classroom-type setting, rather than one-on-one, which some people (incl. myself) find less intimidating. I imagine it's more expensive in the US, but in Canada, CBT courses cost around $100 for ten two-hour classes, which is a hell of a lot cheaper than a $150/hour therapist.

You've probably already heard of it, I just thought I'd mention it on the off-chance that you hadn't, or on the off-chance that you (like me, before I tried it) have previously written it off as being pseudo-science or not worth the time/money. CBT, in my opinion, is a really excellent treatment that pretty much anyone with mental health issues or a history of addiction benefits from. I truly believe it should be a mandatory class in high school; it's certainly more useful than almost everything else they teach you.

As an example of something that I thought sounded REALLY dumb until I tried it, there's a CBT tool called "dunk yo face" in which you fill a large bowl with ice water and hold your face underwater for 30-60 seconds. Sounds dumb, but the shock that the ice water delivers forces a lil psychological 'reset' of sorts that can, for example, totally short-circuit drug cravings. The benefits only last a short-while, but by interrupting negative thought loops it lowers your perceived emotional intensity, which allows clear-headed problem-solving if you're stuck in a self-perpetuating negative feedback loop that has you freaking out. It sort of hurts, but there's a reason why people who self-harm to manage mental-illness do so; pain and discomfort are effective tools if used correctly. This, though, isn't self-harm, obviously, without the galaxy of issues that self-harm raises.

Mindfullness gets a bad rap (and is a big part of CBT), and I used to assume that my problems were too great to benefit from something so simple (ditto stuff like meditation or breathing exercises). But I am consistently amazed by how well it actually works, even as someone who traditionally solved their problems by administering substances. There's situations in which I find CBT tools as effective as low doses of benzos, and it feels really empowering to solve problems that seem insurmountable using only the power of the mind.

CBT is, imo, a truly valid and surprisingly effective method for handling depression, anxiety, or most other psychological bugaboos. If you've tried it in the past and thought it was a crock of shit, it may have just been that you had a bad teacher... there's so many CBT tools that, if taught/learned correctly, you should find at least a few that work.

Sorry this comment is all over the place, I unintentionally took a mild caffeine overdose, which makes my writing a bit of a shit-show 😂


-----
EDIT- P.S., have you ever tried clonidine? I'm not prescribed it any more... I stopped all Rx drugs over the Summer as part of an experiment to see if I could get by using only CBT and talk therapy. Used to take citalopram (max dose), bupropion (max dose), gabapentin, clonidine, trazodone, and quetiapine (Seroquel). Clonidine ranked as high as gabapentin in efficacy, without a problems related to tolerance.
Everyone's different, but it was a wonder-drug for me in terms of helping anxiety. I too feel like I need stimulants to manage my depression, and I too used ephedrine (and caffeine). Both were better than nothing, but the anxiety they generated was really detrimental to my well-being, and made me asocial and more likely to abuse drugs to deal with it.
BUT, the clonidine took away most of the negative effects of the ephedrine, and had next to no potential for misuse!
Lots of drug users only think of clonidine as a tool for opioid withdrawal, but I found it to extremely useful for making stimulant treatment (without having access to the better Rx stims) a more feasible/realistic way to handle my depression. Also helped with my Generalized Anxiety Disorder.
Idk if you depression has a big anxiety component, but propranolol (the beta blocker) was also useful. Both propranolol and clonidine are often pretty easy to talk a doctor into trying, ime.

I too need to take something all the time to avoid feeling like imma kill myself or give in to hardcore addiction. And I've found the trick is to find things that don't have abuse potential but still work okay, like clonidine or caffeine or nicotine or valerian root or gabapentin (I hate caffeine and eph, and both make me anxious as balls with a come-down that feels worse than that of low-dose amp., but they help a tiny bit, maybe not unlike ephedrine for you.)
Doesn't stack up to recreational drug use or hard(er) Rx drugs, but if you look at it not as an alternative to real drugs but as an alternative to drug abstinence, it's certainly better than nothing. I wish I had access to dexamp or even lisdexampfetamine, but... neither of us had legal access to those, and both you and I are stuck making the best of this sometimes/often shitty hand we've been dealt. At least we're not dead or living on the street, right?

Good luck with you week, buddy.
-Dus Aster

Hey there!
Yes I have tried clonidine! And while it helps with mild physical anxiety symptoms, it didn't help much else. In fact, I was put on clonidine, prazosin and propranalol before even being allowed to have a benzo. But even with those meds, my blood pressure was shooting up to heart attack / stroke territory from my anxiety. Once I was put on clonazepam, my blood pressure normalized.

And yeah I've done CBT too. I've had numerous therapists, doctors and psychiatrists over the years. Also had to learn mindfulness. They're excellent tools to have but definitely no cure. Unfortunately I've never found therapy to be very helpful. I use to have very close friends, who although I did use with, use to make me laugh and laugh and laugh. Only certain people can get me to crack up like this, but I found it to be waaay more theraputic than "professional therapy". My best friend (who I had to move away from last year) use to be able to put a smile on my face no matter the shitty situations I was in. Always making me laugh. Now that was good therapy!


As far as epehedrine goes, I have read that it's worse for your heart at regular doses than even a low dose amp would be. So me popping it every day is starting to worry me. For a few months I told myself I wouldn't go up any further than 25mg a day. Being use to methamphetamine, I'm aware ephedrine has no real recreational activity, but I end up taking it anyway. Actually, I take that back. With absolutely NO tolerance to stimulants, ephedrine can actually induce a mild euphoria and calmness in me, even confidence. Especially combined with my other meds. But now it doesn't do a whole lot of anything.

I've been finding over the years that when I feel like I need enlightenment or magic in my life, all I gotta do is go on a DXM trip. But this is short lived and can't be good for me in the long run. But apparently, according to doctors, after all I've done, my blood work and brain are 'normal'. lol


All in all, I'll just keep working with my addiction specialist and the doctors and therapist I have, I guess.
My mom also suffered from severe depression & anxiety and it never really went away for her, all the way up into her 60's. It's just something you learn to live with and manage. I'd personally love to try psychedelics again. SSRI's make me feel like garbage. Antipsychotics rob me of my ability to feel pleasure (even the atypical dopamine balancing ones).


So far my week has sucked! Going through very difficult times (like always), but at least I haven't had any body jerks this week. And you're right, it could also be much worse I guess. Thank you for your insight and experience. :) I will try to maybe work with CBT again and see if it's of any help. I literally do not leave my home anymore, don't socialize, nothing. Mostly due to financial reasons, but a majority of it is my anxiety & general low mood from being depressed and unmotivated/uninterested.

Cheers!
 
Damaging your brain with drugs/alcohol is absolutely possible and not a myth, but it's much more difficult to do than many people assume. Also, the nature of it is highly subjective. In other words, there's a huge amount of variability in each person's brain. So, minor-moderate changes caused by drugs wouldn't necessarily lead to a person's brain being objectively "damaged" (a.k.a. observably abnormal). Rather, it would simply be different than its original state. A doctor wouldn't necessarily be able to determine whether or not the drugs caused changes/damage without doing a before and after comparison. Also, this sort of damage can be quite subtle, and a scan might not even detect it.
 
Top