Misc Is brain damage from drugs a myth?

[DeathIndustrial88]

Hello

I have been using drugs sine I was 12-13. I am now 33, going on 34.
In my teen years, I smoked weed and drank heavily. I also did xtc, cocaine, crank, shrooms & amphetamines off and on.

When I was 19, I discovered pain pills and became heavily addicted to opioids (and still am after 10+ years).
During this time when I had no opioids, I still heavily drank, went on meth binges, dxm binges.

I've actually done a lot of dxm. In my later 20s, I was doing dxm a couple of times a week for two years.

Once I even mixed my antidepressant effexor, with dxm and instead of tripping out, I had convulsions in my legs. I could not walk.
Thankfully I had clonazepam on hand and was able to abort the convulsions.
Ever since then, I've had myoclonic jerks and uncontrollable twitches and body movements.

I was also a heroin addict for 5 years ontop of pain pills.
I've also been on many, many, many extended crystal meth binges.
Also been on benzos and many psychiatric meds.

I use to drink bottles of cough syrup and vodka mixed.
I full fledged abused the hell out of my mind and body because of my self destructive depression, etc..

I had a cat scan done recently to figure out what was causing my body jerks. I figured it was probably damage from doing drugs for 20 years.

To my surprise, my cat scan was completely normal. I'm very shocked. I even called them back and asked how some one like me after all these years could still have a normal brain and they didn't really have an answer for me. It makes zero sense to me. Unless brain damage from drugs is not something that neurologists can see, but I would think they could.

Anyone have any idea why I had this outcome? Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful I don't have a brain tumor or a disease in my brain, but how in the world would I not have brain damage at this point?

Any other addicts experience strange health problems and still answer-less?
Curious about other people's opinions and experiences when it comes to supposed "brain damage" from drugs.

Can anyone help make this make sense to me? How could some one use drugs for 20+ years and have no brain damage? Or is my neurologist a moron?

Anyone have any idea why I have crazy myoclonic jerks when my body is at rest? I've seen several doctors now and apparently none of them can figure out why & it's making me look like I'm a liar or something. Although I did have an abnormal EEG, that they said were non-epileptic.

Keep in mind, I also smoked weed pretty much daily all through out these 20 years. I thought cannabis was damaging to growing brains?

 

[deficiT]

I would have to know a lot more about how brain scans work and such to give any sort of educated answer, but just my impression is, maybe your use of drugs has depleted your receptors and neurotransmitters a bit, and it's just not something that shows up on those scans?

I know meth in particular is neurotoxic and alcohol definitely kills brain cells.

But the brain is a pretty dang tough organism it can take a bit of a beating. Maybe you haven't fucked yourself up as much as you think?

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I would have to know a lot more about how brain scans work and such to give any sort of educated answer, but just my impression is, maybe your use of drugs has depleted your receptors and neurotransmitters a bit, and it's just not something that shows up on those scans?

I know meth in particular is neurotoxic and alcohol definitely kills brain cells.

But the brain is a pretty dang tough organism it can take a bit of a beating. Maybe you haven't fucked yourself up as much as you think?

Yeah I was under the impression that meth, amphetamine & alcohol were all neurotoxic.

I did quit drinking about 5 years ago.

The reason I'm shocked is because I've done so many drugs that I was pretty much expect brain damage to show up.

I mean I use to be stupid & desperate enough to huff dust remover & paint when in heroin withdrawal.

I'm just astounded. I'm not exaggerating my drug use at all either, in fact it's too subjective & "dick sizing" to try and explain how much I've been through.
I still use opioids, stimulants, cannabis & benzos to this day.

I don't know much about cat-scans or brain imaging either and thought maybe brain damage from drug use might not be visible on the images, but I even asked the receptionist how there couldn't be any damage. Even she said she'd expect damage after 20 years to show up. But they had no answer for me.

Not to mention I started doing a lot of these things right around puberty. You'd think my brain would be totally disfigured at this point if drugs were "destroying" my brain before it was even done growing.

I've also been knocked unconscious and have had my nose broken in a handful of car accidents.

Still no clue where my myoclonic jerks are coming from then.
I'm thankful that my brain is normal but man if my brain is normal after all I've done then it really goes against a lot of the "drugs will fry your brain" propaganda out there. Makes me want to be even more vocal against the drug war because some of these "illegal drugs" actually allievated my mental health symptoms better than anything I've tried and with less side effects. But it's "illegal, cause they say so" and I must deal with feeling miserable because of it.

 

[falsifiedhypothesi]

I'm far far far from a professional but I don't think most drugs are damaging to the brain in the stereotypical "kills brains cells and makes holes in your brain" kind of way. It's more subtle, like training your brain to associate certain activities with a reward. I'm sure there are plenty of changes that take place in the brain when using any drug for a long stretch of time, but those changes aren't necessarily "damage"

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

According to Neurotox.com, neurotoxic damage doesn't necessarily show up on brain scans, because it doesn't affect the physiological structure of the brain in the way that "MDMA eats holes in your brain" propaganda leads us to believe. That doesn't mean that there isn't damage, necessarily, just that the damage doesn't look like the stereotypes (ie, long-lasting lesions, like the fabled-and-possibly-bullshit Olney's Lesions).

That said, it seems dangerous to paint all warnings of potential neurotoxicity as mere propaganda. Lots of us know one or two late-stage alcoholics who unfortunately really embody the term "wet brain" (ie, Wernicke/Korsakoff psychosis syndrome) and serve as walking examples that neurotoxic substances can cause serious damage, if abused to a sufficiently large extent over a long enough period of time. Let's not forget that, while there is LOTS of propaganda, there's still kernels of truth hiding in the muck.

As I understand it, drug use in youth doesn't necessarily destroy brain structure, as you mention; moreso, it leads to potentially permanent neurological changes and the creation of maladaptive neuro-pathways that can condition the brain to function poorly without drugs, and/or make it harder to escape life-long addiction. I can't imagine this would show up on any sort of imaging test, and I don't know of any common practices to quantify those sort of maladaptive changes.

SUPER not my field, though, I'm more drawing on self-directed research and some post-secondary psych/pharma courses. Neurotoxicity is a real, serious concern, it just doesn't seem to look like what we were led to believe it looks like (holes on your grey matter, scrambled eggs for brains, et cetera).

Neuroplasticity goes steadily downhill after your mid-20s, apparently (making it harder to learn or re-learn behaviours), but that doesn't mean that it's impossible for us to make healthy, positive changes after our 20s. It's never too late to start treating your brain with a little more love and respect; you might be mostly fine now, but I would be concerned about eventual dementia if I had kept using drugs in the way you describe using drugs.

One more thing- neurotoxicity from, say, inhaling toxic chemicals in the course of one's work, can take decades to become evident. You don't necessarily know until you're developing early Alzheimer's. At which point it's both too late to make changes and difficult to pinpoint a single cause (not that the cause would matter, at that point). Neurotoxicity isn't necessarily something that manifests quickly or instantly, it can be long-standing maladaptive changes that aren't evident until you burn-out much earlier than expected.

Oh of course. Drugs still have their risks. I was aware of wet brain and had an older sister that died from liver failure after a life time of drinking.

So from what I'm gathering, damage could be there but not necessarily show up on imaging?

The neuro path ways stuff I've definitely read about. That doesn't show up in scans then? They can't see that on scans? Like a persons neuro-pathways?

My EEG was abnormal, so there's gotta be something there. Whether it's from drugs or not, I don't know, but I'd like to continue to try and find out.
Got a recommendation to a movement disorder specialist and will see what she has to say.

Thanks for the info & insight. I am definitely not that bad off today as I use to be, but I still take daily opioids, benzos and gabapentinoids, along with the usual thc.

I guess I'm surprised is all. Perhaps the fact that I did most of it before I hit 30 made a difference? I dunno.

Glad it wasn't a brain tumor though.

 

[AutoTripper]

Genuine brain damage of a sort and a level definitely occurs with heavy MDMA abuse especially serotonin syndrome I experienced it myself many times but somehow I have managed to keep chipping on I guess you adapt maybe there is a certain amount of resource within us in a way and whatever we lose we find another way to channel through.

I did incur substantial actual brain damage affects many times from insanely heavy ecstasy use four nights weeks on end in large doses and also very hot environments with no awareness of a harm reduction culture at the time in our circle is at least before we ever use an Internet.

No 3 month rule, hip-hip hooray we could have sang, If only we had known back then!

So yes definitely if you take very large amounts of MDMA for read icing days or weeks months on end especially in heated environments like baking heatwave summer festivals or going to saunas in the morning like I did unknowingly.v

Now LSD is very different even in relatively huge doses it's regarded and reported as being not just practically or relatively but entirely non-brain damaging and in sensible doses like Psilocybin mushrooms it's actually healthy for the brain neurogenesis and imagination network.

So apart from allergies which permits me from taking MDMA the reason I would be taking lots of LSD instead is because of this particular factor I do not want to lose my cognitive ability in terms of language and memory and communication and general sharpness of mind, When I'm not too wasted that is sometimes lol.

So I did take a substantial amount of assaults on my brain physically from MDMA abuse I'm sure I had four or five serotonin syndrome events as well which would match.

I had major MDMA neurosis for a few years which I managed to overcome and in time I have absolutely no regrets at all about taking ecstasy I don't ever feel like if only I hadn't done then I'll be able to in any way I'm just a developed person and ecstasy was part of that for me it's not even in the top 15 of my actual problems in life.

Just me though I'm not encouraging people to go out and acts with such reckless wild abandon and expect to land back on feet.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

i had temporary brain damage from MDMA also but i recovered.....can ya tell?

i couldn't tell if what i was thinking, if i was actually saying it or not - twice that happened to me - i didn't really wanna leave the house either - it was very uncomfortable and not a good feeling

 

[AutoTripper]

i had temporary brain damage from MDMA also but i recovered.....can ya tell?

i couldn't tell if what i was thinking, if i was actually saying it or not - twice that happened to me - i didn't really wanna leave the house either - it was very uncomfortable and not a good feeling

I can tell actually now that you say it because that explains why you're so clever it's not like you started out clever you probably didn't know anything MDMA damaged your brain suddenly are you are an Encyclopedia of knowledge!

If I got my thinking right there, it's muddled. In a nice, hazy way.

Still seeing eyes though lol!

 

[polarthedog]

Ime, all that brain damage stuff is bullshit, drugs can damage the reward centers of the brain, and fuck up the way you feel emotions, but that all usually goes away completely within 5 years, if you were a severe enough Cocaine, meth, amphetamine, alcohol, or benzodiazepine user, it might not heal completely.

But drugs do not make you dumb

Well, paint thinner probably would, but solvents are the exception, like alcohol, they actually kill brain cells instead of just altering them like other drugs

Also, I think if you we’re on 5e meth or w/e else’s your addicted too while your getting the brain scan, then you’re brain would probably look normal, because the meth or w/e would temporarily fix the neurochemical imbalance

 

[AutoTripper]

I don't think it's bullshit I definitely incurred impairment and alteration and limitation of certain faculties and sharpness of using my brain and memory and also personality changes through times then the very substantial neurosis which took a couple of years to get over but that was different more mental psychological and emotional to do with consciousness at my age and a detachment aspect.

But the point is some people are unfortunate enough to lose a leg or an arm or they might go deaf or blind but somehow can in cases find a way to carry on in life we have a bit of support or adaptation.

Taking a ridiculous amount of MDMA had very positive effects on my main quest in life which is the exploration of my own mind and philosophy and developing my personality as honestly and cleanly as I can so I feel that I did it for a purpose and I accept the collateral damage which is damage versus what would be otherwise a much more perfectly working brain and memory system but I have adapted And gotten used to what I'm working with which basically is different to how it was before so it works differently and hence I am halted by MDMA abuse I guess in a way that's kind of damage isn't it alteration and damage when we aren't talking about consciousness but actual physical based cognition.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

i think if you smoke meth habitually as a teenager, it becomes a part of your personality as an adult

ive seen that with a few ppl....they're tweeky the rest of their lives even if they dont do it anymore

 

[negrogesic]

CT scans can only pick up on pretty overtly apparently things, like brain tumors etc

 

[MsDiz]

Will come back to this but what @negrogesic said.

CT scans are ok but they are by no means thorough enough to show up the kind of damage you are speaking of.

A structural MRI scan would be good to see. Chronic drug abuse does damage the brain, without doubt. Using drugs during your developmental years will indeed alter your neural pathways.

I skimmed your post, sorry, but a CT scan is not even nearly good enough to investigate myoclonic jerks, I see you’ve an abnormal EEG. Definitely need further investigation, MRI required.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

if you're already stupid they just make you stupider

 

[AutoTripper]

Nah it's a double negative.

 

[JoshLobbs]

Dud find some grad students in a med school and mention your hypothesis. You might be able to get them to book you in for an FMRI scan.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Thanks @dus_aster!
I'm very surprised too that I retained some intelligence after all this time.

Thanks @negrogesic & @MsDiz !
Unfortunately this neurologist wasn't very kind to me the very first time I saw him.
And when pressed yesterday, it didn't sound like he cared to investigate it further. They did say they would try and recommend me to another neurologist who specializes in movement disorders, but didn't bring up doing anymore tests or anything.

I also had bloodwork done back in February and all of that was normal as well, other than high cholesterol and high hemoglobin (which has been showing up for years and doctors always say it's because I'm a smoker).

I dunno why these people (neurologist & his nurse/receptionist) couldn't tell me all these things. I kept asking them how the hell my brain could be "normal" after decades of the things I've done and they just sort of sat there in silence and didn't have an answer for me. They could have easily told me "yeah, that kind of damage wouldn't show up on a catscan" or something. Can't understand why they didn't want to do an MRI next..

Yes, during my EEG test, I was required to push a button and write it down every time I had a body jerk. It was a 48hr test and my body jerked (mostly one of my legs) only about 3 times during that span. However when they called me with the test results, they said they saw the body jerks register on the EEG and they also saw other abnormalities that I didn't write down.

And now I had this catscan and it's apparently "normal" and they seemed uninterested in doing anything else about it. Even told me I should just live with it and move on with my life.

The catscan results said "I do not see evidence of midline shift, neoplasm, hemorrhage, infarct or hydrocephalus. The paranasal sinuses, middle ears and mastoid air cells are all clear". So, this is great news IMO but only left me with more questions.

I was honestly EXPECTING them to say I had at least mild brain damage, not only from drug use, but from a handful of car accidents I had where I was knocked unconscious and once I even broke my nose on a steering wheel when I was 16 and never seeked help for it.

I was also a huge headbanger as a kid/teenager and would bang the fuck out of my head to metal, like a moron. lol

I've abused the hell out of my mind and body & to keep hearing everything is "normal" is frustrating. Not that I WANT there anything to be wrong, but I'd like to know what's causing these body jerks & what the hell it is they saw on my abnormal EEG then. And to have doctors just be like "pfft, you're fine" is very irritating.

I went on a meth binge back in May when my mother passed away and had an episode where I had tingling on the back of my head/scalp that spread to the side of my head and down into my lower jaw. It felt like the left side of my body was... stuck. It's hard to explain, very subjective. It felt like the left side was not in sync with the right side of my body. I could "feel" that I was 2 halves of a brain working in tandum rather than just feeling like a whole brain. And I had tons of pressure in my head (felt like something was gonna explode on the left side). Thought for sure I had or was having a stroke or something. It lasted about a week and then just mysteriously vanished. I was sleeping, I was eating, etc.. I have never had that kind of a side effect from meth before. But according to this catscan then, I did not have a stroke (even a mild stroke, I would think would be visible through catscan right?), then what the hell was that??

I've heard white matter deteriorates with heroin/opioid use (not sure how true this is), but I've been an opioid addict now for 12 years or so, wouldn't that have been visible? I've been snorting pills daily for the last 4-5 years too and my sinuses are clear, according to the catscan? Wtf.

Thank you to all who answered here. I truly appreciated it. It's certainly brought about some interesting discussion.
I will await and see if this other neurologist calls me, otherwise I might give up even trying to figure out. I've been told by some nurses that having myoclonic jerks at my age isn't normal. But apparently the only one concerned with finding out where they're coming from is me. I've also been told my some that could be due to "brain damage from drugs" (i've heard this from one nurse and even my suboxone doctor). But apparently not.

It's so frustrating hearing over and over again that you're results are "normal", but you don't feel normal, at all.
And for those thought I meant brain damage as in "making me dumb", I meant brain damage as in neurological problems, which I figured would show up on a catscan.

 

[December Flower]

CT scans can only pick up on pretty overtly apparently things, like brain tumors etc

This is the correct answer here.
CT scans are only able to catch physically distinguished pathology, i.e they cannot pick up depleted neurotransmitters, or out of control Tachyphylaxis, or an underactive Thyroid.

You could be seriously fucked in the noggin, and the CT could still show no result.
If you want to be certain, you should do a bunch of tests, including most importantly an EEG, which actually measures your brain activity, impulses etc.

Damage from drugs is certainly not a myth. I've met some fucked up creatures. I watched friends of mine turn into fucked up creatures. I got a friend with brain damage from Amphetamines & short-term memory loss, too - used to be fucking smart, now doesn't even get a lot of jokes. The ex-bf of a friend of mine needs a respirator after fucking around with Spice. If he doesn't wear it at night he could asphyxiate. Dumb as a rock, that guy. In France we met a dude that would let his dog starve, so people would give him more money for heroin. If that's not brain damaged, I don't know what is

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

This is the correct answer here.
CT scans are only able to catch physically distinguished pathology, i.e they cannot pick up depleted neurotransmitters, or out of control Tachyphylaxis, or an underactive Thyroid.

You could be seriously fucked in the noggin, and the CT could still show no result.
If you want to be certain, you should do a bunch of tests, including most importantly an EEG, which actually measures your brain activity, impulses etc.

Damage from drugs is certainly not a myth. I've met some fucked up creatures. I watched friends of mine turn into fucked up creatures. I got a friend with brain damage from Amphetamines & short-term memory loss, too - used to be fucking smart, now doesn't even get a lot of jokes. The ex-bf of a friend of mine needs a respirator after fucking around with Spice. If he doesn't wear it at night he could asphyxiate. Dumb as a rock, that guy. In France we met a dude that would let his dog starve, so people would give him more money for heroin. If that's not brain damaged, I don't know what is

I actually did have an EGG done before the catscan, which showed a bunch of abnormalities, which is what prompted this catscan.

I did not know catscans would not show this kind of damage, but I thought I'd ask here because whenever I asked them there why my scan didn't show any "brain damage from drugs", they were completely stumped and acted like it should have shown up.


The EEG required me to click a button and write it down every time I had a body jerk for 48hrs. I only had 3 body jerks during those 48hrs, which I clicked and wrote down. They said they saw these abnormalities on the results and that they saw other ones that I wasn't aware of. This prompted the catscan which was apparently subsequently "normal". And now they don't seem interested in doing any other tests at all. They said these abnormalities were non-epileptic btw.

Aaah yeah speaking of Spice, I also use to use that for around 1-2 years daily back in 2010-2011 when there were so many of those synthetic thc compounds floating around. No clue what all I put into my body when smoking those things.

 

[December Flower]

I actually did have an EGG done before the catscan, which showed a bunch of abnormalities, which is what prompted this catscan.

I did not know catscans would not show this kind of damage, but I thought I'd ask here because whenever I asked them there why my scan didn't show any "brain damage from drugs", they were completely stumped and acted like it should have shown up.


The EEG required me to click a button and write it down every time I had a body jerk for 48hrs. I only had 3 body jerks during those 48hrs, which I clicked and wrote down. They said they saw these abnormalities on the results and that they saw other ones that I wasn't aware of. This prompted the catscan which was apparently subsequently "normal". And now they don't seem interested in doing any other tests at all.

Aaah yeah speaking of Spice, I also use to use that for around 1-2 years daily back in 2010-2011 when there were so many of those synthetic thc compounds floating around. No clue what all I put into my body when smoking those things.

I wouldn't freak out in your shoes, you're likely not very damaged.
Opiates in general probably fucked your reward system, endorphin release etc, that's defo some brain damage, but manageable. Second is the Tachyphylaxis, also goes hand in hand with Opiates. And the Thyroid is number 3, could be very inactive after all those Opiates.

All that are pretty much ipso facto consequences from Opiate abuse, but afaik not permanent.

Brain Damage is usually more of an issue with (Meth)Amphetamines. Problem isn't really the drug itself, but staying awake for days all the time. There's also some development issues if drugs are taken before you are 21(since your brain is still growing and building until then)