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Misc Infinite insomnia from anti-convulsant (Trileptal)

xbandit07x

xbandit07x

Bluelighter
Joined
Aug 19, 2016
Messages
554
Why is this occuring.

I dont have epilepsy. And likely dont have bipolar.

This drug is supposed to increase Gaba and lower glutamate.

Could I be so Discontent that I cant feel tired.
 
Why are you taking it if you dont have bipolar or epilepsy?

Is it possible it might be correlated but not the cause of the insomnia.

For example
A. Starts to feel anxiety and have trouble keeping cool at work or home
B. Goes to doc
C. Takes new med
D. Experiences sleep issues as a result of a mood disorder not being addressed correctly
 
d1nach said:
Why are you taking it if you dont have bipolar or epilepsy?

Is it possible it might be correlated but not the cause of the insomnia.

For example
A. Starts to feel anxiety and have trouble keeping cool at work or home
B. Goes to doc
C. Takes new med
D. Experiences sleep issues as a result of a mood disorder not being addressed correctly
Click to expand...

Yeah Just like didnt get 1 hour of sleep last night when I always do.
 
No one really knows how these mood-stabilizers work. Some Docs will just prescribe them since they "can't hurt" and can't be abused.

I was prescribed it for a couple of months and I didn't notice any effect whatsoever (I did have insomnia while on it but I was at the <10mg Valium part of a benzo taper). That said, sleepiness is probably more common than insomnia as a side effect but I'm sure there is a long list of potential side effects.
 
well looking at trileptal, it apparently is a simple D2 agonist as well as a gaba upregulator and glutamate blocker. Supposedly seems simple.

I think things that "up regulate" have a lot to do with your own thoughts. And it wont generate shit for GABA lets say, if you are chronically anxious.
 
I thought the primary mechanism of mood stabilizers was by blocking sodium ion channels versus antipsychotics that have more affinity for dopamine D2 receptors.

I think its really important why your on it. I dont think its like xanax where you are focusing on the immediate effects. Like I take lithium carbonate for mood stabilizing and at first i had tremor but they adjusted the dose and i cant really tell much except the amount of suicidal lows has basically stopped for years vs daily and my mood doesnt shift as extreme so i might peak feel like 8 when im really aroused by like say music or a girl but even when i wakeup i feel like a 6/10 or if im sad i might feel like a 4/10 but quickly bounce back.
 
xbandit07x said:
well looking at trileptal, it apparently is a simple D2 agonist as well as a gaba upregulator and glutamate blocker. Supposedly seems simple
Click to expand...

I don't mean to be rude but that's a pretty complex mechanism of action although I don't know how accurate this is vs. Na+ channels.

Mood stabilizers will likely have side effects that diminish over time as d1nach mentioned with lithium and tremors. If you look at the lithium Wikipedia page it notes that many side effects are transient.

How true this is, how well it translates to trileptel, and most importantly how true it is for your body will be anyone's guess.
 
Last edited:
I decided not to fuck with anything that builds up in my brain. All I need is to be stuck with something I dont like
 
d1nach said:
I thought the primary mechanism of mood stabilizers was by blocking sodium ion channels
Click to expand...
Correct, and they can occasionally cause such symptoms as insomnia because sodium channels are highly expressed on inhibitory interneurons such as GABA interneurons (hence blocking the sodium channels inhibits the GABA interneurons), this is apparently why local anesthetic overdose leads to seizures

Those aforementioned effects on inhibitory interneurons could take a backseat when blocking sodium channels in e.g. epileptic patients because epileptic patients tend to have really active sodium channels on excitatory neurons and these meds like oxcarbazepine have higher affinity for the sodium channels that have just fired, thus anti-epileptics are supposed to address the epileptic-like firing while trying to leave alone normal transmission.

Eslicarbazepine should be even better in this regard because it has even higher affinity/selectivity for the state of the sodium channel that has just fired, therefore mostly neurons that fire repetitively (epilepticly) tend to get inhibited
 
So does that mean a sodium channel blockade could indirectly influence dopamine signaling by interacting with gaba interneurons modulating dopaminergic receptors.

Ie
Sodium channel blockade indirectly influencing dopamine in the striatum

Dopamine d2 antagonism via acting directly on the d2 receptor

???
 
Sure, and a sodium channel blocker will also interact with sodium channels on dopamine cells (it tends to be the case that dopamine modulates GABAergic cells, especially D1 and D2 type medium spiny neurons)

Many of these anti-epileptics are also HDAC inhibitors which will affect drug of abuse related DeltaFosB induction in medium spiny neurons, and in some cases HDAC inhibition by itself can induce DeltaFosB in some sets of medium spiny neurons (I believe D1 MSN's)
 
Okay so lets cut the science out, Are you saying Mood stabilizers make you less satisfied with the present moment, thus insomnia comes?
 
Mood stabilizers could lead to insomnia by any number of mechanisms but I wouldn't assume that this is related to some existential "I'm less satisfied with the present moment" stuff, if anything the activating/antidepressant effects of one mood stabilizer have kept me up

One mechanism I detailed above was that sodium channel blockers can decrease GABA release in some instances, in contrast to benzos and ambien which boost GABA transmission
 
Bandit, what are you doing stringing me along with your benzo addiction/amphetamine obsession, not taking your anti-psychotics, and now you're on what should be good for you, Trileptal, a whole thread about it even, and you never mention it? I'm kind of hurt.

Your insomnia is probably related to your weird use of amphetamines, and also could be benzo withdrawal. Unless you're not taking them constantly after all.
 
Cotcha Yankinov said:
Sure, and a sodium channel blocker will also interact with sodium channels on dopamine cells (it tends to be the case that dopamine modulates GABAergic cells, especially D1 and D2 type medium spiny neurons)

Many of these anti-epileptics are also HDAC inhibitors which will affect drug of abuse related DeltaFosB induction in medium spiny neurons, and in some cases HDAC inhibition by itself can induce DeltaFosB in some sets of medium spiny neurons (I believe D1 MSN's)
Click to expand...

That's really interesting about the HDAC inhibition. Is it a certain class of anti-epileptic drug that can also act as HDAC inhibitors? I hadn't heard that before.

And I think Cotcha Yankinov has summed things up nicely for your bandit. You should probably just ask your doctor to switch you to a different med. What are you taking this for?
 
It might help him quit benzos and help with his underlying anxiety disorder, but he claimed to have just been prescribed hydroxyzine, which he threw out. Has an aversion to serotonin. Fun guy.
 
Slow_Mobius said:
Is it a certain class of anti-epileptic drug that can also act as HDAC inhibitors? I hadn't heard that before.
Click to expand...
Interestingly most of the mood stabilizers are appreciable HDAC inhibitors, this includes valproate, lamotrigine, lithium and carbamazepine/oxcarbazepine

It could be that the molecules that have a structure conducive to sodium channel blockade also have a structure conducive to HDAC inhibition
 
Scrofula said:
It might help him quit benzos and help with his underlying anxiety disorder, but he claimed to have just been prescribed hydroxyzine, which he threw out. Has an aversion to serotonin. Fun guy.
Click to expand...
There are some studies showing that carbamazepine and other mood stabilizers can help with benzo withdrawal, also regarding hydroxyzine, it blocks serotonin receptors and is primarily an antihistamine - and antihistamines generally reduce serotonin release.

Funny wiki quote regarding the aversion to serotonin/hydroxyzine - "The antiserotonergic effects of hydroxyzine likely underlie its usefulness as an anxiolytic,[14]"

%)

Hydroxyzine can be great for sleep though.
 
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