Misc Indian Warrior (pedicularis densiflora) questions...!

[incaseofaburglar]

I recently received a package of pedicularis densiflora (aka Indian Warrior) 10x in the mail. The intention is to take it for muscle pain in my leg and foot, but also because of the insomnia that has come with the severe pain. The seller has not given me any dosage information due to legality issues (they said the FDA had not approved it for consumption...), I am curious if anyone has information about dosage for this herb? It is in powder form. I have a scale and capsules ready, but not sure where to start.

As I am suffering from nerve and muscle pain, other recommendations would be welcome, as well. I have had moderate success with daily use of skullcap in tea and tincture form.

Thanks!

 

[FlawedByDesign]

Google should help. If it really is 10x strong than plain leaf adjust your dose according to the amount of plain leaf consumed by users. That being said almost botanical I've used labled as a 10x extract have never been anywhere near 10 times the potency of regular leaf. I would still start low just to much sure. Please report back if you get a chance as I have been intrested in this plant for a while now.

 

[incaseofaburglar]

Google should help. If it really is 10x strong than plain leaf adjust your dose according to the amount of plain leaf consumed by users. That being said almost botanical I've used labled as a 10x extract have never been anywhere near 10 times the potency of regular leaf. I would still start low just to much sure. Please report back if you get a chance as I have been intrested in this plant for a while now.

I have definitely searched on Google! Not having much luck. I have seen information on dosage for tincture as well as smoking dosage, but nothing on capsule or tea dosage.

And yes, I have been interested in this plant for a few years! I am hoping I bought it from a reliable source, but am at a loss for dosage. I suppose I will start experimenting if I do not get any advice, but have heard plants from the lousewort family do create tolerances fast, so I am a bit weary on randomly experimenting (as I do need it to work!).

 

[FlawedByDesign]

One report says the user experienced powerful sedation from smoking 50-100mgs of a good 20× resin extract. So if your extract is indeed 10x as advertised you may want to start with 100-200mgs(after testing a small dose of course). Hope that helps.

Edit: sorry, I didn't realize you where looking into oral doses.

Edit#2: I found one report on erowid where the user makes tea out of 4 grams but he also used syrian rue and jwh-018. So maybe start with .4 grams and work your way up.

 

[deruyityn]

I was also interested in this when i read that it was like kava but stronger.

However I got put off when i read that the active components are toxic and cause cancer/tumours.

There is some good info on it over on the entheogen network (cant link you exactly since Im not sure what I was searching for when i found it but try plant name + entheogen network). Those guys seem to be the leaders in ethnos whereas bluelight likes their pharmas and rcs more.

 

[Mycophile]

I was also interested in this when i read that it was like kava but stronger.

However I got put off when i read that the active components are toxic and cause cancer/tumours.

There is some good info on it over on the entheogen network (cant link you exactly since Im not sure what I was searching for when i found it but try plant name + entheogen network). Those guys seem to be the leaders in ethnos whereas bluelight likes their pharmas and rcs more.

Where did you read that it can cause cancer and tumours?!?!

I have never heard that and was pretty sure that no one had any real info on Indian Warrior.

I have smoked quite a bit of it and I like it a lot but I have no experience with extracts, only smoking the buds.

In my personal experience it is so benign that there really doesn't seem to be any way to smoke too much or have any bad effects if you are simply smoking the buds but I don't know about the extract which might be stronger and now I am curious in trying it.

For me, I just pop the buds in a bowl and smoke it like weed or sometimes put it in my vaporizer.

It does seem to be mildly helpful for little aches and pains but I'm not sure how good it is as serious painkiller.

It DEFINITELY calms me down a lot and is good for sleep, anxiety, anger, etc.

It feels kind of like a mild opioid in a way, almost like weed without the mental component and kind of relaxes my eyes and allows me to see mild patterns in things.

It also tastes great, the buds kind of taste a bit fruity and the smoke is very smooth and smells great.

I won't buy the argument that it has anything cancerous in it unless I see a link.

It has the feel of a benign herb to me in that I've smoked a SHIT LOAD with no bad effects at all and it's probably the mildest tasting smoke I've ever smoked and that is coming from an asthmatic.

Usually something cancerous would seem like it wouldn't go down so easily and produce so few negative effects but I guess you never know.

I recommend the stuff personally.

 

[Mycophile]

From wikipedia:

From wikipedia:


"Indian Warrior is used as a tea or tincture to promote healthy immune function and its ability to relax tense muscles.^{[citation needed]}The buds and flowers are often added to tea blends for their color, flavor, and relaxing properties. It is also found to be useful in the treatment of insomnia, as well as having antioxidant properties"

Doesn't sound cancerous to me!!

 

[incaseofaburglar]

One report says the user experienced powerful sedation from smoking 50-100mgs of a good 20× resin extract. So if your extract is indeed 10x as advertised you may want to start with 100-200mgs(after testing a small dose of course). Hope that helps.

Edit: sorry, I didn't realize you where looking into oral doses.

Edit#2: I found one report on erowid where the user makes tea out of 4 grams but he also used syrian rue and jwh-018. So maybe start with .4 grams and work your way up.

One report says the user experienced powerful sedation from smoking 50-100mgs of a good 20× resin extract. So if your extract is indeed 10x as advertised you may want to start with 100-200mgs(after testing a small dose of course). Hope that helps.

Edit: sorry, I didn't realize you where looking into oral doses.

Edit#2: I found one report on erowid where the user makes tea out of 4 grams but he also used syrian rue and jwh-018. So maybe start with .4 grams and work your way up.

Thank you! I will be trying this out tomorrow!

 

[Mycophile]

This says that Pedicularis Denisflora has ANTI-TUMOUR properties.



ABSTRACT In the present review, the literature data on the chemical constituents and biological investigations of the genus Pedicularis are summarized. Some species of Pedicularis have been widely applied in traditional Chinese medicine. A wide range of chemical components including iridoid glycosides, phenylpropanoid glycosides (PhGs), lignans glycosides, flavonoids, alkaloids and other compounds have been isolated and identified from the genus Pedicularis. In vitro and in vivo studies indicated some monomer compounds and extracts from the genus Pedicularis have been found to possess antitumor, hepatoprotective, anti-oxidative, antihaemolysis, antibacterial activity, fatigue relief of skeletal muscle, nootropic effect and other activities.
Phytochemistry and Pharmacology of the Genus Pedicularis Used in Traditional Chinese Medicine - ResearchGate. Available from: http://www.researchgate.net/publica...icularis_Used_in_Traditional_Chinese_Medicine [accessed May 13, 2015].

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

Have you talked to a doctor about your nerve and muscle pain? That's what people I know who have either or both have done.

 

[deruyityn]

Where did you read that it can cause cancer and tumours?!?!

I have never heard that and was pretty sure that no one had any real info on Indian Warrior.

Hi its good to know you tried and and liked it because i was very interested in it for a while.

Is the high as strong or better than kava? As i said i was very interested when i read that it was a stronger version of kava. Sounded like jsut what I was after as a more sedative/hypnotic to complement kratom.

Im trying to find it now. It was on the enteogen network I think. It wasnt a scientific paper but the person who said it named the certain alkaloids in it and i looked up on those and read they were toxic iirc. Itll take me a bit to find it but im also motivated to find out if its benign cos i wanna try it if so so ill get back to you when i find it.

I just have to wrack my brains about what i was searching for when i came across it

--

Edit: Here we go

P. Densiflora has indeed reddish-purple buds, so rest easy. P. Groenlandica (Groenlandica = Groenlandia) also has purple buds but they lack the reddish tint. The chemicals responsible for the effects felt are pyrrolizidine alkaloids. Pyrrolizidine alkaloids are also toxic to the liver in excessive doses or with excessive use in addition to their intoxicating effects.

https://mycotopia.net/topic/46450-pedicularis/?p=583253

I hope someone can either verify/nullify what this guy claims and update this thread as appropriate.

and here is the wiki snippet on those alkaloids:

Unsaturated pyrrolizidine alkaloids are hepatotoxic, that is, damaging to the liver.^[8][9] PAs also cause hepatic veno-occlusive disease and liver cancer.^[10] PAs are tumorigenic.^[11] Disease associated with consumption of PAs is known as pyrrolizidine alkaloidosis.
Of concern is the health risk associated with the use of medicinal herbs that contain PAs, notably borage leaf, comfrey and coltsfoot in the West, and some Chinese medicinal herbs.^[11]

 

[Mycophile]

Hi its good to know you tried and and liked it because i was very interested in it for a while.

Is the high as strong or better than kava? As i said i was very interested when i read that it was a stronger version of kava. Sounded like jsut what I was after as a more sedative/hypnotic to complement kratom.

Im trying to find it now. It was on the enteogen network I think. It wasnt a scientific paper but the person who said it named the certain alkaloids in it and i looked up on those and read they were toxic iirc. Itll take me a bit to find it but im also motivated to find out if its benign cos i wanna try it if so so ill get back to you when i find it.

I just have to wrack my brains about what i was searching for when i came across it

--

Edit: Here we go


https://mycotopia.net/topic/46450-pedicularis/?p=583253

I hope someone can either verify/nullify what this guy claims and update this thread as appropriate.

and here is the wiki snippet on those alkaloids:

Well Kava has never worked for me so yes, I think it is stronger.

As far as this info, it doesn't scare me away from occassionally smoking a little bit because it says "very excessive usage" can do that.

Not to mention that I'm not sure I buy it because info I linked says it has anti-tumour properties.

Also, it's an herb that is SMOKED so how can something you smoke be that harmful for your liver when it is never passed through your internal organs??

I mean I know that technically even things we smoke pass through the liver I guess, but I just don't see how something that is never consumed can do that?

But again, they said EXCESSIVE usage can do that, IF their info is even correct at all.

I don't think I'd be afraid to smoke it as rarely as I do.

 

[Mycophile]

Also, although the guy SEEMS knowledgable I don't know where he gets his info.

Does he have legit sources?

He DOES mention drinking the tea being more harmful than smoking.


However, because of what he says I'm going to limit my usage to very rare occassions.

I've only done it a few times anyways.

I find it odd to see that he thinks that considering how mild the herb FEELS.

I'd like to show Sekio or someone else knowledgable that info and see what they think about this.

 

[deruyityn]

Regarding it not passing thru the liver if its smoked thats just not true afaik. Anything that gets in your bloodstream will be digested by the liver (if that is how the drugs is metabolised), doesnt matter how it got in there it is broken down by the liver. Im pretty sure that is the case.

I also wonder about how credible his statements are. Maybe he was just some stoner making leaps of logic maybe not; he sounded like he knew what he was talking about but it would be good to get confirmation one way or the other. I too would also like to hear sekio's take or another of the shamens over here .

 

[88dood88]

Kava is actually quite potent if you find the right vendor and make it through the traditional straining methods. Im talking strong euphoria, potent analgesic, very anxiolytic and seems to enhance music to me. Also it gives me crazy vivid dreams if I drink it about 2 hours before bed. Indian warrior is good too but in my experience kava is noticeably stronger.

 

[Mycophile]

Kava is actually quite potent if you find the right vendor and make it through the traditional straining methods. Im talking strong euphoria, potent analgesic, very anxiolytic and seems to enhance music to me. Also it gives me crazy vivid dreams if I drink it about 2 hours before bed. Indian warrior is good too but in my experience kava is noticeably stronger.

I've always found it never worked and many people believe it doesn't, but if I could ever get it to do that I'd be really excited.

 

[deruyityn]

I agree with guy above that Ive had a couple of decent hits from it on par with kratoms strength; well not on par but a couple nothces below; its a great synergiser imo. But the amount you need to take and the cost for me in the uk (its banned so its hard to find and really expensive~) made it not worht it. Plus i wanst comfortable tkaing something that may cause liver injury over time cos i want things to take semi regular i want to be confident they are non toxic.

You have to choke down loads of the vile earthy matter to get good hits and i found the amount you need causes nausea and headache if you go a little over. I am sure I could work wiht it more and find a nice dose but as i said im not happy using it regularly so havent continued experiments with it.

 

[sekio]

There aren't pyrrolizidine alkaloids naturally occurring in any species of Pedicularis as far as I know.

Apparently if Pedicularis sp. are grown near plants that contain toxic alkaloids[ref], the alkaloids can be uptaken into the roots. Other compounds that aren't necessarily toxic would be uptaken, too. But I doubt the flowers would have appreciable levels of alkaloid in them.

Certainly they aren't responsible for its effects and they aren't bio-synthesized by the plant itself.

Don't lose any sleep over this if it's farmed/cultivated. Even if it's wildcrafted and "organic", I'd assume a harvest would dilute the alkaloids down if only a small fraction of plants were near anything toxic.

I mean, the other thing to consider: combusting anything will produce reactive and toxic compounds that give you cancer. So there's always that to fall back on, if you want something to lose sleep over.

(You could also have your material tested on a GC/MS I'd assume, I bet these alkaloids would show up if you knew what to look for.)

 

[deruyityn]

Hmm so the guy was full of shit then probably. Maybe some stoner logic at play. It would be nice to chase the guy down to find out what led him to such conclusions.

Yes I understand the fact they can 'leech' toxic materials from other plants, I am not concerned about that; rather that he was saying the actives responsible for the psychoactive effect are what cause the toxic element.

What makes you say they certainly arent responsible for its effects? Not questioning your authority but nice to know to increase my confidence as to why.

There aren't pyrrolizidine alkaloids naturally occurring in any species of Pedicularis as far as I know.

Apparently if Pedicularis sp. are grown near plants that contain toxic alkaloids[ref], the alkaloids can be uptaken into the roots. Other compounds that aren't necessarily toxic would be uptaken, too. But I doubt the flowers would have appreciable levels of alkaloid in them.

Certainly they aren't responsible for its effects and they aren't bio-synthesized by the plant itself.

Don't lose any sleep over this if it's farmed/cultivated. Even if it's wildcrafted and "organic", I'd assume a harvest would dilute the alkaloids down if only a small fraction of plants were near anything toxic.

I mean, the other thing to consider: combusting anything will produce reactive and toxic compounds that give you cancer. So there's always that to fall back on, if you want something to lose sleep over.

(You could also have your material tested on a GC/MS I'd assume, I bet these alkaloids would show up if you knew what to look for.)

 

[Mycophile]

There aren't pyrrolizidine alkaloids naturally occurring in any species of Pedicularis as far as I know.

Apparently if Pedicularis sp. are grown near plants that contain toxic alkaloids[ref], the alkaloids can be uptaken into the roots. Other compounds that aren't necessarily toxic would be uptaken, too. But I doubt the flowers would have appreciable levels of alkaloid in them.

Certainly they aren't responsible for its effects and they aren't bio-synthesized by the plant itself.

Don't lose any sleep over this if it's farmed/cultivated. Even if it's wildcrafted and "organic", I'd assume a harvest would dilute the alkaloids down if only a small fraction of plants were near anything toxic.

I mean, the other thing to consider: combusting anything will produce reactive and toxic compounds that give you cancer. So there's always that to fall back on, if you want something to lose sleep over.

(You could also have your material tested on a GC/MS I'd assume, I bet these alkaloids would show up if you knew what to look for.)

I'm not going to lose sleep over it lol, but burning and smoking ANYTHING gives you cancer?

Why don't people say that smoking weed causes cancer then?