If Ignorance is Bliss, what is Enlightenment?

[birdup.snaildown]

Monks look bored.

They are kind of like spiritual body-builders.

I'm not sure what the point is.

People talk about enlightenment as this thing that's practically impossible to obtain and when you get it, you're separate from the rest of your species. You're a prophet.

Why do people want to be prophets? I don't mean like a psychedelic monk. I mean like people who want to spend their lives in seclusion, devoted to unravelling a mystery that (by definition) cannot be unravelled?

I've always been super sceptical about how wise wise-men are.

I'm not sure they're that wise.

 

[Gormur]

Monks don't really live in seclusion though. Don't they interact with the local community, have fundraisers and sell vegetables? Maybe it depends on where they're based. I guess you mean they live a minimalistic life

I wouldn't consider that wise at all. But if we don't know their hearts how can we say that they're selfish? Maybe they're selfless even if that seems wrong to us

 

[keseyhitchens]

Enlightenment for me is throwing off the chains of superstition and coming into the light of Reason.

 

[Twackademy]

For me,
Enlightenment means to experience interpreting, acknowledging and accepting reality for all that it is and can be.

Inversely,
Blissful Ignorance is conveniently accepting a flawed perception of reality as truth to remain in a comfortable state of bliss.

Idk

 

[tubgirl.jpg]

Enlightenment leads to one thing and one thing only, and that is futility.

 

[Foreigner]

Hmmm... ignorance is bliss is just a metaphor. Ignorant people don't actually experience bliss. Ignorance is the primary obstacle to enlightenment.

To put it roughly, enlightenment is recognizing who you really are and putting aside all worldly illusions that distract you from this present truth. It is dissolving all false selves into the real Self. Then, enlightenment is living in the world and seeing everything around you comes from the same truth that you do.

All questions cease when this happens.

Ultimately, the questions are the problem.

When you see Self and lives as that and nothing else, all appearances are God.

True bliss, or the bliss sheath is the final sheath of illusion. It feels like the truth because the Self is in a state of bliss all the time, but bliss is still an experience. Self does not experience anything. So the state of bliss is like Self holding up a mirror to itself in the experience realm.

Any temporary experience is not Self, yet all temporary experiences arise from Self. If you can unify that paradox, then you're enlightened.

 

[Twackademy]

Hmmm... ignorance is bliss is just a metaphor. Ignorant people don't actually experience bliss. Ignorance is the primary obstacle to enlightenment.

To put it roughly, enlightenment is recognizing who you really are and putting aside all worldly illusions that distract you from this present truth. It is dissolving all false selves into the real Self. Then, enlightenment is living in the world and seeing everything around you comes from the same truth that you do.

All questions cease when this happens.

Ultimately, the questions are the problem.

When you see Self and lives as that and nothing else, all appearances are God.

True bliss, or the bliss sheath is the final sheath of illusion. It feels like the truth because the Self is in a state of bliss all the time, but bliss is still an experience. Self does not experience anything. So the state of bliss is like Self holding up a mirror to itself in the experience realm.

Any temporary experience is not Self, yet all temporary experiences arise from Self. If you can unify that paradox, then you're enlightened.

I like this one the most.

I've always believed that all "highs" induced by foreign substances that I feel are formed around an amplified version of me.

If i'm a piece of shit, I'm gonna be a high piece of shit.

If i'm a decent human, I'm gonna be a high decent human.

I 100% agree that everything in life starts with self.

Man, I think my grammar get's worse when I'm not high though... lol

 

[ControlDaddy]

Monks look bored.

They are kind of like spiritual body-builders.

I'm not sure what the point is.

People talk about enlightenment as this thing that's practically impossible to obtain and when you get it, you're separate from the rest of your species. You're a prophet.

Why do people want to be prophets? I don't mean like a psychedelic monk. I mean like people who want to spend their lives in seclusion, devoted to unravelling a mystery that (by definition) cannot be unravelled?

I've always been super sceptical about how wise wise-men are.

I'm not sure they're that wise.

A year ago I spent some time living in a Zen temple as a resident martial artist, so not exactly a monk but closish. There were four other men in those circumstances with me. We all lived with an enlightened Zen Buddhist Grand Master, and his wife who was our Headmaster (and a former disciple like me). I never looked bored and I never was bored, but I am not saying you are wrong, just that I had a secret.

A seven gram per day cocaine freebase SECRET habit.

I never got "busted" but I also don't thing the enlightened man I lived with was fooled in anyway. When my dexamp habit and crack habit rubbed shoulders on occasion and my discipline wavered, he would say my energy was too high, and order me to go do some tedious task instead of whatever I was trying to do too AMPED and COKED up to do well. Pretty enlightened of him, since I tended to be superhumanly good at whatever task he set me to.

Trust me when I say that coming from a world (Meth-Earth) full of false prophets, egomaniacs, masters of nothing except denial, illusion chasers, and champion time wasters who tend to isolate and value seclusion, that I didn't find any of that in anyone living in that temple except perhaps in myself.

 

[ControlDaddy]

FWIW the most useful explanation of and definition of Bliss, I only discovered while I lived in that temple, smoking 7g a day of hard with 90mg a day of dex (the explanation), otherwise expending my resources only on learning to live and not die while wielding a sword. I was utterly focused on something I held a lifelong fascination with and of personal spiritual value, with minimal responsibilities and minimal everything else, and despite beginning to grieve the loss of something of huge value to me (my married life), I felt complete happiness (the definition).

I still call the vapors from cocaine freebase oil Bliss.

 

[Foreigner]

I like this one the most.

I've always believed that all "highs" induced by foreign substances that I feel are formed around an amplified version of me.

If i'm a piece of shit, I'm gonna be a high piece of shit.

If i'm a decent human, I'm gonna be a high decent human.

I 100% agree that everything in life starts with self.

Man, I think my grammar get's worse when I'm not high though... lol

When you're a piece of shit, or a decent human being, those are false selves. The real Self is unchanging, is perfect, is bliss. That's the true "I", but most people talk from the false "I" when they speak. It's difficult to describe the difference... you'd have to see the real Self first, which is you, and not some third party idea the mind has made up. Actually, to see Self you have to unsee all the other false selves and false realities. So it's not a matter of learning, it's remembering what is always real.

All you have to do is ask: Who am I?

You can expand it a bit. Who is this happening to? It's happening to me. Who is "me"?

As soon as you ask that, all the mind stuff, including false egos and identity complexes, collapse into blissful silence. You have to ask "Who am I?" constantly, with everything that happens. If you're in a shitty situation, ask it. If you're in love, ask it. Everything that "happens", ask who it's happening to.

Then you realize, nothing is happening, and it's not happening to anyone. Or you could also say, only one thing is happening all the time. The real Self is all there is, and the world of appearances is also that.

To quote Ramana Maharshi: asking "Who am I?" will destroy all other thoughts, even though the question is a thought. He says it's like using a stick to stir a burning pyre -- the stick itself gets consumed once the fire is stoked. In other words, you can't figure this out without instruction, and instruction requires language and mind. But eventually all of that bursts like a bubble and you're just left with loving reality.

The subject-object relationship ceases. You experience everything as God, in all its unique individuations, of which you are one. There are no more questions. People hate the word "God", but you could also say that in the silence is true love.

If you can ask "Who am I?" in every situation, every circumstance; if you can collapse the world of form into the Self which is the only reality, and then live in the world seeing that reality everywhere, you are enlightened.

I know this sounds simple on its face, but thinking "I know that already" is just another ego. If you listen to these gurus talk over and over, you eventually realize that you don't get this shit at all, and it's going to take more work. But I've described the basis of it here. You can at least partly feel the resonance of it, if you really try it out.

 

[Foreigner]

I recommend Ramana Maharshi's "Who am I?" as a primer on this. It's a short book, about 8 pages. It seems simple on its surface but it's really astounding if you go deep with it.

 

[4meSM]

I believe in enlightenment as a temporary emotion or even as something to aspire to.
It's definitely a good thing to try to become more knowledgeable and understanding, to try to have a balanced life and to be contempt with yourself.


I don't believe anyone who claims to have archieved enlightenment though... It's just another thing people believe in to make themselves feel special and unique.

And I guess some narcissists will also claim to know the absolute way to enlightenment. They probably see you as another ignorant sheep, but they're so profoundly enlightened that they can teach you how to get there too! As long as you pay the price or do as they say.



Overall, I think it's alright as long as you don't become too full of yourself.
In many cases it's a classic example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, gotta stay humble because the truth is that you don't even realize how much you don't know.

 

[Foreigner]

I believe in enlightenment as a temporary emotion or even as something to aspire to.
It's definitely a good thing to try to become more knowledgeable and understanding, to try to have a balanced life and to be contempt with yourself.

A lot of people touch on enlightenment in a temporary way, as you say, because they have not dealt with their obscurations and misattributions. There are still circumstances pulling their awareness into the false world of samsara, or into false selves. That's why so many people appear as phonies. The ones that are genuinely trying are not exactly phonies, but they are still dealing with egos that they may not be aware of.

I don't believe anyone who claims to have archieved enlightenment though... It's just another thing people believe in to make themselves feel special and unique.

Few people really achieve it in a permanent way. For most of us on the path, we have touched on it, so we know what its resonant signature looks like... but when we talk about it with others, we are relating a memory of it. Memory is an attachment, it's not the actual reality "I" talking.

The few people on this planet who are the Real Self "I" talking all the time, and not false ego, are incredible to be around. They are Atmans, and not mind projections. You just know they are who they say they are. Again, rare.

And I guess some narcissists will also claim to know the absolute way to enlightenment. They probably see you as another ignorant sheep, but they're so profoundly enlightened that they can teach you how to get there too! As long as you pay the price or do as they say.

Yeah... judgment is another ego, so if anyone is being superior, that's ego talking. Or I should say, judging without love or compassion... non-constructive judgement. A good teacher will judge you for the sake of your progress.

I don't think a desire to teach others is a sign of false enlightenment. There are gurus out there who do it. The Real Self is love, and love begets more love. So of course they will teach -- although some don't and that's fine too. But discerning the real deal guru means you have to have some level of attainment yourself. That's why I like Vedanta. It's not for entry level beginners. They only teach people who already have some of this figured out.

Overall, I think it's alright as long as you don't become too full of yourself.
In many cases it's a classic example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, gotta stay humble because the truth is that you don't even realize how much you don't know.

If people are full of themselves then they're not enlightened. The Real Self is complete and doesn't need the validation that comes from bragging. It is fully self-sustained and whole. It is also the reality of the entire universe, so condescension is irrelevant.

 

[Twackademy]

When you're a piece of shit, or a decent human being, those are false selves. The real Self is unchanging, is perfect, is bliss. That's the true "I", but most people talk from the false "I" when they speak. It's difficult to describe the difference... you'd have to see the real Self first, which is you, and not some third party idea the mind has made up. Actually, to see Self you have to unsee all the other false selves and false realities. So it's not a matter of learning, it's remembering what is always real.

All you have to do is ask: Who am I?

You can expand it a bit. Who is this happening to? It's happening to me. Who is "me"?

As soon as you ask that, all the mind stuff, including false egos and identity complexes, collapse into blissful silence. You have to ask "Who am I?" constantly, with everything that happens. If you're in a shitty situation, ask it. If you're in love, ask it. Everything that "happens", ask who it's happening to.

Then you realize, nothing is happening, and it's not happening to anyone. Or you could also say, only one thing is happening all the time. The real Self is all there is, and the world of appearances is also that.

To quote Ramana Maharshi: asking "Who am I?" will destroy all other thoughts, even though the question is a thought. He says it's like using a stick to stir a burning pyre -- the stick itself gets consumed once the fire is stoked. In other words, you can't figure this out without instruction, and instruction requires language and mind. But eventually all of that bursts like a bubble and you're just left with loving reality.

The subject-object relationship ceases. You experience everything as God, in all its unique individuations, of which you are one. There are no more questions. People hate the word "God", but you could also say that in the silence is true love.

If you can ask "Who am I?" in every situation, every circumstance; if you can collapse the world of form into the Self which is the only reality, and then live in the world seeing that reality everywhere, you are enlightened.

I know this sounds simple on its face, but thinking "I know that already" is just another ego. If you listen to these gurus talk over and over, you eventually realize that you don't get this shit at all, and it's going to take more work. But I've described the basis of it here. You can at least partly feel the resonance of it, if you really try it out.

I understand the concept of being self-aware about how everything in life is connected and it's all just happening, every choice you make expands or contracts your affect on your surroundings.

I'll have to check it out sometime.

 

[Foreigner]

I understand the concept of being self-aware about how everything in life is connected and it's all just happening, every choice you make expands or contracts your affect on your surroundings.

I'll have to check it out sometime.

That's not really what I'm talking about, but that's okay. Increasing awareness in general is usually a good thing, rather than being dumbed down. Cheers.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

I am not sure, but I know that people who claim to be 'enlightened' by drugs-usually psychedelics but I have seen it happen with cocaine and METH, or in other ways 99% of the time are not, and often times it is their ego or narcissistic personality disorder speaking.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

we are already enlightened just coming into awareness of this fact is game changing to stop the seeking of happiness outside of our self. Enlightenment itself is another illusion once awakened to the fact of the true self

 

[Gormur]

Hmmm... ignorance is bliss is just a metaphor. Ignorant people don't actually experience bliss. Ignorance is the primary obstacle to enlightenment.

I like where you went with this. I'd just add that the knowledge one experiences is enough for that person so that they're satiated but not ignorant of facts

Even though I'm a person who does things in other realms I don't feel the need to add the word spiritual to ideas (like spiritually satiated or like). I think it takes away rather than adds to the point I'm getting across

 

[Foreigner]

I like where you went with this. I'd just add that the knowledge one experiences is enough for that person so that they're satiated but not ignorant of facts

Even though I'm a person who does things in other realms I don't feel the need to add the word spiritual to ideas (like spiritually satiated or like). I think it takes away rather than adds to the point I'm getting across

The word "spiritual" carries people to a lot of wrong places, mostly to confused ideas about transcendence or going somewhere.

All I'm after is the truth. I'm not talking about rewards, promises, or anything else. I just want to know what is real, and this question has taken me down a very deep path. It doesn't make me better than anyone. A lot of people don't give two shits about this stuff. I talk to them and they just smile and nod, think I'm a weirdo, and move on. Others find it fascinating in passing. Not a lot of people commit themselves to this, and why should they?

It's perfectly okay to be satiated with Samsara. You don't get anything for being enlightened. There's no reward at all. You don't get magical powers or radiate light. It all leads back here, to this present moment. Nothing gets transcended. But what is real is what is true, and what is true is loving, and that mitigates a lot of unnecessary suffering and time wasted on illusions. I find Samsaric endeavors to be a never ending hamster wheel that goes nowhere, and that's only because I've had nutso life experiences that showed me the truth, so much so that Samsara never compared again.

The real Self is bliss and anything anyone could ever want or need. In fact, the temporary bliss most people get when they chase objects, is their Self. They just misattribute it to what's happening in the world of objects. I'd rather cut out the middle man of all those objects and just go to the bliss, while also using the resonant bliss of Self to cut through all the trauma illusions I suffer from regularly.

I've met people on the path who gave up and just fell back into ignorance, living in Samsara. They are okay with some degree of awakening, but decided it was too hard or pointless to go the rest of the way (which isn't even a path that goes anywhere, really). People on the path rotate between ignorance and awakening, ignorance and awakening. I mean, you never truly forget once you know, once you see. It's like an egg cracking open, you can't put the yolk back in. You can plateau or suffer from obscuration again. In a way it's worse than being totally ignorant because if you've gone part way, you can never fully accept Samsara anymore, and yet you still are dealing with falsity so total clarity is not always forthcoming. I would categorize myself that way. I've figured out a lot but not enough. I would say if you don't feel a real draw to this, then don't bother. Just live out your temporary meaningful life and be happy with chasing objects. That's what most people do and there's nothing wrong with it at all.

Sorry for the novel. I've just been immersed in this stuff recently and it's good to write it out.

 

[Gormur]

Yeah I get it. I mean you may not agree with me but I think there are a few different paths one can take. My second girlfriend was part of the Soka Gakkai movement. I attended a class and thought it was strange but she got something from it. I'm not sure if she was enlightened but she claimed such things and I politely listened. This was years before I starting taking psychedelics so maybe my opinion would be different now but I doubt it hehe

I understand what you're saying though. I don't tell people, or not in everyday conversations anyway that I've reached enlightened stages. Maybe that's best though since I got there by using sheets of LSD and astral projecting. I guess for me, there's nothing left to do except live my life. I don't think I could even explain what it's like if I wanted to