Kratom I don't think I should quit kratom

[Nurse Ratched]

Well I'm about 3 days into my 36 gram/day kratom cold turkey. This is the first time I've quit kratom while still having it in my possession.

The first night crawling out of skin feeling was rough but not too bad since then. Definitely sucks though.

Thanks for the update. Keep us posted please. I went ahead yesterday and dropped my 4 gram dose down to 3 grams. Also cut my 7 at bedtime down to 5. So instead of my usual 23 grams per day it was just 17. Didn't feel much difference. I commend you on the CT. I'm gonna go the taper route.

Hang in there. Doing this over the Holiday weekend was smart ( if you have no obligations )

 

[MDPV_Psychosis]

I've ordered some, following negro's advice. In my case it works wonderfully, better than the agmatine I was already using. 2000mg (4x500mg capsules) causes a significant reduction in withdrawal, about 50%-75% I would say. As a point of reference, I'm now using around 25-28g of kratom per day in 2 sessions but am slowly tapering down, aiming for 15g per day and eventually skipping days. As soon as I get a new supply I'm going to try combining the black seed oil with some agmatine and perhaps speed up the taper that way. YMMV of course, agmatine doesn't work for everyone either

Ok awesome, I am definitely getting some black seed oil soon.

Agmatine has helped me but very minimally so, just barely noticeable. What I've noticed is that while taking agmatine (usually 0.5g x 3 times a day) I can go a little longer between doses and also dose ever so slightly lower each time without as much discomfort as I would have without the agmatine. So it helps with taper but isn't a miracle but I'll take all the help i can get.

 

[BlueBull]

Ok awesome, I am definitely getting some black seed oil soon.

Agmatine has helped me but very minimally so, just barely noticeable. What I've noticed is that while taking agmatine (usually 0.5g x 3 times a day) I can go a little longer between doses and also dose ever so slightly lower each time without as much discomfort as I would have without the agmatine. So it helps with taper but isn't a miracle but I'll take all the help i can get.

Might be the dose? I take about 1,5g of agmatine at a time, so 3x the dose that you take. And while the black seed oil has an even more noticeable effect, the effect from the agmatine is very noticeable as well for me, not just barely noticeable. I have also noticed, at least in my case, that 90% of the agmatine available for purchase where I live is far from pure. I know this because I had relatively pure agmatine once and the taste was very bitter and very chemically tasting. It was awful, taste-wise. Almost all agmatine bought after that, from other vendors, has been only very slightly bitter and the effects were obviously correlated with the bitter taste and hence with purity. That's to say, it could also be a purity issue . Or it might just be your biological makeup of course, reports on agmatine have always been mixed

 

[MDPV_Psychosis]

Ok I'll give a higher dose a try next time I'm using it. I'm pretty sure I already tried dosing higher before but didn't notice much improvement, but I think then it was 1g 3 times a day. Been awhile so can't remember exactly.

I'm pretty confident the agmatine I have is quality stuff. Odor, look and taste are as it should be (nasty) and the vendor is about as good as it gets in the nootropics industry.

 

[MDPV_Psychosis]

Hey @negrogesic ive got some black seed oil showing up in a few days. Went with capsules though and each one is suppose to have 1.25g of cold pressed with minimum 95% Thymoquinone.

What's a good dose and frequency to start with?

 

[Nurse Ratched]

Hey @negrogesic ive got some black seed oil showing up in a few days. Went with capsules though and each one is suppose to have 1.25g of cold pressed with minimum 95% Thymoquinone.

What's a good dose and frequency to start with?

I was wondering how your CT is going as well @negrogesic . How bad are your symptoms and are you using anything other than the black seed oil?

 

[negrogesic]

I was wondering how your CT is going as well @negrogesic . How bad are your symptoms and are you using anything other than the black seed oil?

Yeah its over now. Its been something like 8 days now. Still some depression maybe and my appetite still hasn't returned to normal. Other than that it is over.

 

[Nurse Ratched]

Yeah its over now. Its been something like 8 days now. Still some depression maybe and my appetite still hasn't returned to normal. Other than that it is over.

Good to hear.

 

[simstim]

I used to use 100g of Bali red a day in 4x 25g doses. That's a kilo every 10 days. Coming off of it sucked. I ended up taking like 45 or 50 loperamide a day for awhile and tapering off of those.

 

[simstim]

You could try memantine. The latter is both a dopamine D2 agonist, which has been shown to abolish opioid withdrawal syndrome, as well as a NMDA antagonist, which actively lowers tolerance at mu by some receptor interaction. SSRIs offer some protection, but also have a price, serotonin itself is antinociceptive and will aid with restlessness, as does the D2 antagonism.

With venlafaxine (avoid this / use fluoxetine unless you want to switch dependencies for the worse) + memantine + pregabalin it was actually painless to stop morphine.

Kratom affects many different receptors and contains around 40 active ingredients, of which many haven't even been assayed yet. The mu-opioid agonism should exhibit somewhat more mild withdrawal than from morphine, as it's only a biased partial agonist .. sometimes just the knowledge about the possibility and prevalence of withdrawal can fuck with your mind, as an active nocebo.. I've been on morphine for around 3 years straight and thought to never get off maintenance but it wasn't that hard at all. Venlafaxine's another story but yeah maybe I was just lucky..

Memantine or something with pure dxm like delsym does ease the symptoms. I've ridden out withdrawls on both.

 

[negrogesic]

Dissociatives were always tricky for me in opioid withdrawal sometimes I'd feel a little better, sometimes I just weirder and regretted taking it.

I remember in severe IV morphine withdrawal I injected ketamine into my thigh felt weird and regretted it. Then i thought, let me try it IV (which i had never tried) and it worked very well and had a heat/warmth to it. Problem is it was too short lasting. Nitrous oxide also works very well but had the same problem. DXM never really helped my withdrawal symptoms but it might work better for mild to moderate withdrawal syndromes (like kratom or low to mid dosed oral opioid habits).

 

[simstim]

Dissociatives were always tricky for me in opioid withdrawal sometimes I'd feel a little better, sometimes I just weirder and regretted taking it.

I remember in severe IV morphine withdrawal I injected ketamine into my thigh felt weird and regretted it. Then i thought, let me try it IV (which i had never tried) and it worked very well and had a heat/warmth to it. Problem is it was too short lasting. Nitrous oxide also works very well but had the same problem. DXM never really helped my withdrawal symptoms but it might work better for mild to moderate withdrawal syndromes (like kratom or low to mid dosed oral opioid habits).

DXM I only find helpful in that it dulls creepy crawly feelings and can be a distraction.

 

[MDPV_Psychosis]

Been wanting to try memantine for wd or tapering for awhile now just haven't gotten around to obtaining any yet.

Did try taking a low oral dose (5mg) of 3-ho-pce while feeling mild opioid wd from tapering. This was my first time taking a disso in over 10 years and it was also my first time trying 3-ho-pce. Didn't help, if anything it made things worse as I became more aware of all the shitty physical and emotional stuff I was feeling. Maybe a larger dose would have helped, maybe not. Not interested in finding out any time soon. Gonna lock it up for some time in the future when I'm in a better headspace.

Hopefully a combination of agmatine and black seed oil proves to be helpful. I've used agmatine before and it did help a bit, hoping the addition of the black seed oil makes it even better.

If not I may give a rapid suboxone taper a try

 

[plumbus-nine]

Did try taking a low oral dose (5mg) of 3-ho-pce while feeling mild opioid wd from tapering. This was my first time taking a disso in over 10 years and it was also my first time trying 3-ho-pce. Didn't help, if anything it made things worse as I became more aware of all the shitty physical and emotional stuff I was feeling. Maybe a larger dose would have helped, maybe not. Not interested in finding out any time soon. Gonna lock it up for some time in the future when I'm in a better headspace.

3-HO arylcyclohexylamines are weird ones imho and possibly not strong enough at NMDA. It alone, without opioid tolerance or withdrawal, made me feel weird twice and thus abstaining from any more use.

Interesting that IV ketamine is more efficacious than other ROAs, and might confirm my theory that the speed of onset / "rush" is relevant for tolerance reduction. For me there is a "dissociation threshold" phenomenon, when taking lower dosages, they just cause weird feelings and regret of taking them but once the threshold has been hit, all the discomfort goes and stays away for the duration of the agent. With longer lasting ones, tolerance is significantly reduced afterwards yet disso tolerance itself goes up and next time it requires a bit more to cross this threshold - specially if one had a history of disso tolerance.

That said, it's not a magic bullet unfortunately but can work for the worst, last few mg's of an opioid taper.
Very interesting sounds the combination of memantine / long lasting arylcyclohexylamine + ultra low dose naltrexone.

DXM is a weird one and possibly worse in lower doses than higher, but also possibly cardiotoxic in higher doses and readily able to induce panic attacks in me which lasted for like 2 days so I avoid more than like 450mg DXM altogether. Also it's by far the most psychotomimetic dissociative for me (no experiences with PCP though and 3-MeO caused weird stuff too), which might be distracting but generally isn't what one wants. Though this might be abolished during opioid withdrawal with increased cholinergic load, at least the opposite is true - while on morphine, which alone is indirectly anticholinergic. the psychotomimesis is worse than without an opiate.

One might combine DXM + memantine to get more out of a prescription and avoid rushing into D2 induced mania (which doesn't readily happen unless a stim is introduced but of course YMMV).
Ketamine probably is too short lasting, yet can be extended by re-dosing for days.

I found kratom, when used in single doses/days, not to readily reinforce tolerance and withdrawal unlike classical opioids. Possibly because its mu agonism doesn't recruit beta arrestin, whatever this means. So one could alternate between a dissociative and kratom, possibly while using ULN and pregabalin.

Real unsolved problem imho is PAWS. There dissociatives do help but it seems to be an one shot thing, like the ketamine related rapid antidepressant effects, after one became tolerant to them it doesn't work anymore. Which made me relapse into morphine looking forward to ULN..

 

[Xorkoth]

I don't really get PAWS from kratom like I do with other/full opiates. Fortunately. But I'm sure some people do. PAWS is a bitch. The best advice I have for PAWS is to work out every day. Work out hard, do cardio and weights. Every day. It makes a HUGE fucking difference, moreso than any other factor by far.

Okay question for people here who use kratom daily or daily for periods of time or just frequently. Do you use the powdered form? Personally I have used the powdered form for the most part because it is what is available and cheapest bang for you buck. However, I have also used the crushed leaf (strain out the kratom ((it is like tea leaf consistency)), downside is that you have to use like twice as much leaf and its more expensive and takes more time to prepare etc.) but, the CRUSHED LEAF FELT WAY CLEANER, than the GOOPY SLUDGY POWDER. Anyone else like crushed leaf? or Extracts instead?

I have noticed the same thing from crushed leaf vs powder. The dose needed is higher, but the effect is substantially nicer. It has a lot to do with vendor, too, I'm sure. The only crushed leaf I know about is from wild-harvested kratom trees from the jungle, whereas most of the supply of "basic" kratom is from farms. Not all kratom is created equal, not by a longshot.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

I am tapering off kratom with stronger opiods.

Yes this is a very dumb idea. But it will work actually. Not going to face opioid withdrawal after this as it will be brief usage. Plus kratom addiction gets not as fun when the buzz is closer to sobriety after some time.

The opies help me ruin my life with and be happier than kratom.

 

[plumbus-nine]

I have noticed the same thing from crushed leaf vs powder. The dose needed is higher, but the effect is substantially nicer. It has a lot to do with vendor, too, I'm sure. The only crushed leaf I know about is from wild-harvested kratom trees from the jungle, whereas most of the supply of "basic" kratom is from farms. Not all kratom is created equal, not by a longshot.

Yeah, for sure, and unfortunately. Only good experience so far was a Kratom sample pack with different strains where the red one was actually stronger than like 60+mg morphine but the green I have now is bunk, only sweating and weird headspace. Found a supplier for complete leaves, more expensive but might give them a try.

PAWS might be serotonergic too, at least a SNRI + dopaminergic should resolve protract it. As long as you aren't already dependent on venlafaxine like me. Switched now to tramadol, has a favorable side effects profile for me but still need some additional morphine to avoid PAWS.

Any experiences with using psychedelics against that, or (U)LDN?
I'm not even sure how much really is PAWS b/c morphine was always an effective aid to me unless overused and too much secondary suppression going on. Wondering whether a rigid regimen of like 60mg/d might actually be better than pregabalin for anxiety, less brain fog but the change in metabolism and asexuality is worrysome even though pregabalin is similar and methadone was way worse. Would say antipsychotics would be worse too. Unsure about tolerance, it's not linear for me and with pregab reducing is painless and quick. Just the last mgs suck ass..
Worst part is the dependence of doctors, expenses and stigma..

 

[polarthedog]

I have been addicted to about 72 grams a day before for multiple months at a time, that was actually the first opioid I was ever addicted too, so I didn’t realize what the withdrawals were, I just thought I was losing my mind and the only thing that helped was drinking a 1.75 liter bottle of alcohol over a 2-3 day period and taking Kratom with it. It would wear off in the middle of the night and I would have soul crushing nightmares in which time would dilate, I had dreams that felt like they lasted days or more, but they were really only 30. minutes long. I would be trapped by aliens in a space prison, or being eaten alive over and over (in opiate withdrawal nightmares I can feel pain), then I respawn And die again. I don’t remember which nightmares belong to which withdrawals anymore because I’ve come down so many times. I ended up getting of bupe to get off of Kratom, it’s pretty damn hard to get off of if it only gets rid of your withdrawals for 2-3 hours. I had read online that Kratom had no withdrawals, so I was like fuck it I’ll take a shit ton. People assume just because it doesn’t give them withdrawal, then everyone who says they have withdrawals from it must just be pussies or imagining it it seem so like. I think that makes it worse because it’s hard to get sympathy from people
Btw I would eat doses between 21-28 grams at a time 4 ish times a day, so 72 grams is probably a conservative estimate

 

[Nurse Ratched]

I have been addicted to about 72 grams a day before for multiple months at a time, that was actually the first opioid I was ever addicted too, so I didn’t realize what the withdrawals were, I just thought I was losing my mind and the only thing that helped was drinking a 1.75 liter bottle of alcohol over a 2-3 day period and taking Kratom with it. It would wear off in the middle of the night and I would have soul crushing nightmares in which time would dilate, I had dreams that felt like they lasted days or more, but they were really only 30. minutes long. I would be trapped by aliens in a space prison, or being eaten alive over and over (in opiate withdrawal nightmares I can feel pain), then I respawn And die again. I don’t remember which nightmares belong to which withdrawals anymore because I’ve come down so many times. I ended up getting of bupe to get off of Kratom, it’s pretty damn hard to get off of if it only gets rid of your withdrawals for 2-3 hours. I had read online that Kratom had no withdrawals, so I was like fuck it I’ll take a shit ton. People assume just because it doesn’t give them withdrawal, then everyone who says they have withdrawals from it must just be pussies or imagining it it seem so like. I think that makes it worse because it’s hard to get sympathy from people
Btw I would eat doses between 21-28 grams at a time 4 ish times a day, so 72 grams is probably a conservative estimate

Damn Son, that is for sure a shit ton of plant material. My stomach would never let me consume even half of what you take. And it sounds like you went through some serious withdrawl. People forget that when they quit kratom they are not just quitting the mitragynine that hits the MU, it also has 39 other alkaloids that nobody really knows what they do to our different receptors. I know for sure that one of the alkaloids acts like a mild benzo or a lyrica. I'm not saying it's a pharm grade GABA A/B but I know it is similar in its effects. So you are withdrawing from 40 different alkaloids so it's no wonder that people suffer so severely.

I thought my use was bad at 23 grams per day ( and I still DO want to cut that back to 19 ) and I can't imagine what CT off of 72 grams plus would be.

So are you going to keep taking that much or are you trying to taper? Sorry I didn't catch that in your post. Do you think you could get by OK with maybe 36 to 40 grams per day? Good luck with whatever you do.

Might be TMI.....but how are your bowels? Once a day? Less/more than that? Rock hard like actual timber logs ? ha ha. Just curious.

 

[negrogesic]

Interesting how some people can tolerate single doses of 20+ grams. I have a history of monster sized opioid habit and used to easily shoot entire 100ug/hr fentanyl patches (enough to kill 8 people) ontop of methadone. Hell i once developed a IV heroin addiction ontop of my 380mg/day methadone habit. But i can't really get in much more than 40g of kratom per day without getting very nauseated and wobbly.

With extracts and tea I can go higher but i still wind up getting the wobbles eventually. I also get pretty dysphoric with large doses (like 20g equivalent of kratom by way of extracts). I form a tolerance to kratom pretty fast but i don't gain tolerance to the nausea much. Can imagine taking an ounce of kratom at a time, thats like half a soda can full. Makes my stomach ache just thinking about it. Those who are able to take 20g at a time must have iron stomachs.