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Kratom I don't think I should quit kratom

4meSM

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Joined
Jan 6, 2014
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Wasp spray
Beethoven was a genius, did he smoke weed? Idk i mean maybe someone more informed can enlighten me, but i love beethoven and I dont think he needed any drugs at all, period.
Didin't he almost drank himself to death? I believe he had cirrhosis.
Europeans didn't really smoke weed at the time, it was a pretty rare practice. Although smoking hash started getting popular in the 1800s IIRC.
Many health remedies contained cannabis extracts but it wasn't really seen as a drug (by today's definition).
 

Scipio

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Joined
May 29, 2021
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1
I’ve been taking Kratom daily for a LONG time. Daily for 10 years and some change. At my peak, nearly a year ago I was taking 40-50gpd. Around that time I decided to do an extremely slow taper. At this point, I’m at 11gpd. When I started, each jump was easy. I simply went down a gram or two a week. For example I’d go from 45-43 and stay there for a week. I won’t feel a difference. But once I got into the low 20s it was a real slog. Now that I’m nearing double digits, I do get a bit uncomfortable for a couple or few days each time I drop a single gram. Which I never expected. Obviously not full blown withdrawal but it’s made me realize what a grip this plant has on me
 
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plumbus-nine

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Apr 4, 2021
Messages
208
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Mexico
You could try memantine. The latter is both a dopamine D2 agonist, which has been shown to abolish opioid withdrawal syndrome, as well as a NMDA antagonist, which actively lowers tolerance at mu by some receptor interaction. SSRIs offer some protection, but also have a price, serotonin itself is antinociceptive and will aid with restlessness, as does the D2 antagonism.

With venlafaxine (avoid this / use fluoxetine unless you want to switch dependencies for the worse) + memantine + pregabalin it was actually painless to stop morphine.

Kratom affects many different receptors and contains around 40 active ingredients, of which many haven't even been assayed yet. The mu-opioid agonism should exhibit somewhat more mild withdrawal than from morphine, as it's only a biased partial agonist .. sometimes just the knowledge about the possibility and prevalence of withdrawal can fuck with your mind, as an active nocebo.. I've been on morphine for around 3 years straight and thought to never get off maintenance but it wasn't that hard at all. Venlafaxine's another story :( but yeah maybe I was just lucky..
 

axe battler

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Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
1,842
OP. Of you wanna stop. Drop each dose by 0.5g. you won't feel the difference and as long as you keep going down you will get off it eventually.
If it's gonna be made illegal or of you need to stop for another reason. Very slow taper will definitely work.
 

axe battler

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Aug 4, 2009
Messages
1,842
I think you're thinking of Van Gogh drinking absinthe. Perhaps... I know fuck all about Beethoven.
 

MDPV_Psychosis

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Sep 15, 2006
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You are a better man then I negro. I probably would have caved that first night if I had a stash in the house and was flopping around in bed like a fish. Keep on keeping on, sounds like you are making great progress. You using the black seed oil again and if so is it helping? You recommended it to me awhile ago but still haven't gotten any yet, need to do something about that...
 

BlueBull

Moderator: M&ED
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You are a better man then I negro. I probably would have caved that first night if I had a stash in the house and was flopping around in bed like a fish. Keep on keeping on, sounds like you are making great progress. You using the black seed oil again and if so is it helping? You recommended it to me awhile ago but still haven't gotten any yet, need to do something about that...
I've ordered some, following negro's advice. In my case it works wonderfully, better than the agmatine I was already using. 2000mg (4x500mg capsules) causes a significant reduction in withdrawal, about 50%-75% I would say. As a point of reference, I'm now using around 25-28g of kratom per day in 2 sessions but am slowly tapering down, aiming for 15g per day and eventually skipping days. As soon as I get a new supply I'm going to try combining the black seed oil with some agmatine and perhaps speed up the taper that way. YMMV of course, agmatine doesn't work for everyone either
 

Pumpkin2021

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Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
999
Location
Michigan
Well I'm about 3 days into my 36 gram/day kratom cold turkey. This is the first time I've quit kratom while still having it in my possession.

The first night crawling out of skin feeling was rough but not too bad since then. Definitely sucks though.
Thanks for the update. Keep us posted please. I went ahead yesterday and dropped my 4 gram dose down to 3 grams. Also cut my 7 at bedtime down to 5. So instead of my usual 23 grams per day it was just 17. Didn't feel much difference. I commend you on the CT. I'm gonna go the taper route.

Hang in there. Doing this over the Holiday weekend was smart ( if you have no obligations )
 

MDPV_Psychosis

Bluelighter
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
2,214
Location
Norcal
I've ordered some, following negro's advice. In my case it works wonderfully, better than the agmatine I was already using. 2000mg (4x500mg capsules) causes a significant reduction in withdrawal, about 50%-75% I would say. As a point of reference, I'm now using around 25-28g of kratom per day in 2 sessions but am slowly tapering down, aiming for 15g per day and eventually skipping days. As soon as I get a new supply I'm going to try combining the black seed oil with some agmatine and perhaps speed up the taper that way. YMMV of course, agmatine doesn't work for everyone either

Ok awesome, I am definitely getting some black seed oil soon.

Agmatine has helped me but very minimally so, just barely noticeable. What I've noticed is that while taking agmatine (usually 0.5g x 3 times a day) I can go a little longer between doses and also dose ever so slightly lower each time without as much discomfort as I would have without the agmatine. So it helps with taper but isn't a miracle but I'll take all the help i can get.
 

BlueBull

Moderator: M&ED
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Ok awesome, I am definitely getting some black seed oil soon.

Agmatine has helped me but very minimally so, just barely noticeable. What I've noticed is that while taking agmatine (usually 0.5g x 3 times a day) I can go a little longer between doses and also dose ever so slightly lower each time without as much discomfort as I would have without the agmatine. So it helps with taper but isn't a miracle but I'll take all the help i can get.
Might be the dose? I take about 1,5g of agmatine at a time, so 3x the dose that you take. And while the black seed oil has an even more noticeable effect, the effect from the agmatine is very noticeable as well for me, not just barely noticeable. I have also noticed, at least in my case, that 90% of the agmatine available for purchase where I live is far from pure. I know this because I had relatively pure agmatine once and the taste was very bitter and very chemically tasting. It was awful, taste-wise. Almost all agmatine bought after that, from other vendors, has been only very slightly bitter and the effects were obviously correlated with the bitter taste and hence with purity. That's to say, it could also be a purity issue . Or it might just be your biological makeup of course, reports on agmatine have always been mixed
 

MDPV_Psychosis

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Sep 15, 2006
Messages
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Norcal
Ok I'll give a higher dose a try next time I'm using it. I'm pretty sure I already tried dosing higher before but didn't notice much improvement, but I think then it was 1g 3 times a day. Been awhile so can't remember exactly.

I'm pretty confident the agmatine I have is quality stuff. Odor, look and taste are as it should be (nasty) and the vendor is about as good as it gets in the nootropics industry.
 

MDPV_Psychosis

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Joined
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Norcal
Hey @negrogesic ive got some black seed oil showing up in a few days. Went with capsules though and each one is suppose to have 1.25g of cold pressed with minimum 95% Thymoquinone.

What's a good dose and frequency to start with?
 

Pumpkin2021

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Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
999
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Michigan
Hey @negrogesic ive got some black seed oil showing up in a few days. Went with capsules though and each one is suppose to have 1.25g of cold pressed with minimum 95% Thymoquinone.

What's a good dose and frequency to start with?
I was wondering how your CT is going as well @negrogesic . How bad are your symptoms and are you using anything other than the black seed oil?
 

negrogesic

Moderator: BDD, OD
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I was wondering how your CT is going as well @negrogesic . How bad are your symptoms and are you using anything other than the black seed oil?

Yeah its over now. Its been something like 8 days now. Still some depression maybe and my appetite still hasn't returned to normal. Other than that it is over.
 

simstim

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Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Messages
497
I used to use 100g of Bali red a day in 4x 25g doses. That's a kilo every 10 days. Coming off of it sucked. I ended up taking like 45 or 50 loperamide a day for awhile and tapering off of those.
 

simstim

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Messages
497
You could try memantine. The latter is both a dopamine D2 agonist, which has been shown to abolish opioid withdrawal syndrome, as well as a NMDA antagonist, which actively lowers tolerance at mu by some receptor interaction. SSRIs offer some protection, but also have a price, serotonin itself is antinociceptive and will aid with restlessness, as does the D2 antagonism.

With venlafaxine (avoid this / use fluoxetine unless you want to switch dependencies for the worse) + memantine + pregabalin it was actually painless to stop morphine.

Kratom affects many different receptors and contains around 40 active ingredients, of which many haven't even been assayed yet. The mu-opioid agonism should exhibit somewhat more mild withdrawal than from morphine, as it's only a biased partial agonist .. sometimes just the knowledge about the possibility and prevalence of withdrawal can fuck with your mind, as an active nocebo.. I've been on morphine for around 3 years straight and thought to never get off maintenance but it wasn't that hard at all. Venlafaxine's another story :( but yeah maybe I was just lucky..
Memantine or something with pure dxm like delsym does ease the symptoms. I've ridden out withdrawls on both.
 

negrogesic

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Dissociatives were always tricky for me in opioid withdrawal sometimes I'd feel a little better, sometimes I just weirder and regretted taking it.

I remember in severe IV morphine withdrawal I injected ketamine into my thigh felt weird and regretted it. Then i thought, let me try it IV (which i had never tried) and it worked very well and had a heat/warmth to it. Problem is it was too short lasting. Nitrous oxide also works very well but had the same problem. DXM never really helped my withdrawal symptoms but it might work better for mild to moderate withdrawal syndromes (like kratom or low to mid dosed oral opioid habits).
 

simstim

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Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Messages
497
Dissociatives were always tricky for me in opioid withdrawal sometimes I'd feel a little better, sometimes I just weirder and regretted taking it.

I remember in severe IV morphine withdrawal I injected ketamine into my thigh felt weird and regretted it. Then i thought, let me try it IV (which i had never tried) and it worked very well and had a heat/warmth to it. Problem is it was too short lasting. Nitrous oxide also works very well but had the same problem. DXM never really helped my withdrawal symptoms but it might work better for mild to moderate withdrawal syndromes (like kratom or low to mid dosed oral opioid habits).
DXM I only find helpful in that it dulls creepy crawly feelings and can be a distraction.
 
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