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How the British stole $45 trillion dollars from India from 1765 to 1938

dalpat077

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Um, okay. This was the OP:
Um, okay. I missed that. Sorry! 🙂

Not that I didn't read the whole thread from the start (for the record and unlike far too many people that just jump in an comment out of context). I did from when it started. Just a function of jumping around between threads and then being sort of absent, or relatively inactive, for a day or two and then returning to a thread. 🙂
 

birdup.snaildown

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Xorkoth said:
The fact is, European nations spent centuries forming global empires at the expense of pre-existing civilizations, and in the 1900s left these cultures unprepared to govern themselves after centuries of oppression and subjugation. Saying stuff like "well they were doing it to themselves already" only serves to try to pass off responsibility or deflect There might be some truth to it, but why is that where you jump to, rather than admitting that European nations from their imperialism periods committed atrocities across the globe that much of the world is STILL trying to recover from, up to half a millenium later? It's none of our own personal faults, those of us on either side alive today and discussing this, but it's important to recognize what really happened, and perhaps for some responsibility on national scales to be embraced.

I disagree with this. If you said European and Asian nations, I would be much closer to agreeing with you... but I still wouldn't agree. The last sentence I quoted here talks vaguely about "some responsibility". What do you mean by this: reparations?

If everybody should acknowledge everything that everyone did based on race (for whatever stupid reason) it should be across the board. China should pay Japan and Japan should pay China. They should apologize to each other.

There is no bad guy.

You're not going to convince me that white people are inherently more evil than non-white people. For the record: I know you don't believe that. So what do you believe? What is the point of this?
 

dalpat077

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This not meant to be controversial but food for thought. And I'm not 100% sure that it's applicable or the same thing.

But maybe worth mentioning that having to pay reparations and to such an extent that it ends up crippling a country economically? Bit of a slippery slope.

Also not to be contrarian for the sake of it here: but the USA and the UK have indeed plowed (I fucking hate this American spell check!) more than a fair amount of money back into Africa in various forms over the years and continue to do so. Isn't that a form of reparations? Albeit that wasn't or isn't the intent (to make restitution)? Just putting it out there. I don't know if the same could be said for India (I mean: I really don't know the answer).

But where do you draw the line or how far do you go with all of this? I don't have the answer (again). Here's a (fairly recent) opinion piece or article on a similar type topic (although cannot say as I looked too hard i.e. was the first one that came up). But there's loads that come up if searching for "us war reparations".

Don't quote me on this (as the mind plays tricks the older I get) but I do seem to remember that the US apology and acknowledgement re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki meant more to those that were interviewed at the time than the $$$ token amount that was handed out (something like that).

 

JessFR

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That article makes lots of good points about why African American financial reparations aren't feasible.

Personally I think it's stupid.

For one it's gonna undo anything, people aren't gonna go "Yay the sins of the past are all forgiven! I don't think it'll even contribute to it.

Also it seems inevitable that the amount of reparation would be so small as to be more insulting than nothing, or so large that it's crazy to spend the money on that rather than investing it in more pragmatic social programs.

Reparations don't seem realistic in this situation. Not to mention a lot of non black Americans are also struggling... Deliberately creating more division by supporting one race and not another doesn't seem like it will make anything better.
 

JessFR

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Oh, and this'll probably make me few friends... But for the record, I'm pretty certain the United States has never apologized for the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

And frankly.. I'm glad we haven't. We were at war, they were our enemy, they refused to surrender.

Man I've sure gotten to play in the right wing pool a lot lately. It's nice, I can't remember the last time when I got to argue for so many generally right wing beliefs.
 

dalpat077

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Oh, and this'll probably make me few friends... But for the record, I'm pretty certain the United States has never apologized for the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Fuck. Now I have to go look it up! Thanks for that! 🤣
 

dalpat077

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I'm pretty certain the United States has never apologized for the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Yeah. Alright. Fair enough. Took me a minute or two.

The apologies and reparations were for the Japanese that were put into internment camps within the USA. Not for the bombings. So I stand corrected. Thank you. I do remember watching a wreath laying ceremony or something like that and some Japanese being interviewed hence my comment in my post. Anyway. Here's something (written in 2016 and I doubt if anything has happened since then on this topic).

Oh and not saying that the USA should be apologizing. Point really was (in the context of this thread) that sometimes an acknowledgement and apology is worth more is all (again in the context of this thread).

 

JessFR

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To be clear since I have already disagreed with apologizing to Japan and African American reparations, I wanna make clear that I think making reparations to Japanese Americans was entirely warranted. Japanese internment is one of Americans most shameful mistakes. And we've had some bad ones.

It was all fueled by racist nonsense, there was never any evidence for traitors amongst Japanese Americans, and even if they were the were still Americans and we violated their rights. If anyone's rights are meaningless everyone's are.
 

dalpat077

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Here's a better article. Not only because of the interesting quote below. But also because it doesn't fucking force me to subscribe just to read an article that's over four years old like the Washington Post!

"The Abe administration has affirmed past government apologies for Japanese actions during the war, but asserts that future generations should not have to apologize for the actions of their forebears."

Pretty much, I guess, to a degree, the point I've been trying to make on this thread.

 

dalpat077

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Man I've sure gotten to play in the right wing pool a lot lately.
But let's not get ahead of ourselves here either. Bear in mind that I support a President who cannot even spell the word "apologize" (not even in Russian)! 🤣 Don't want anybody getting false impressions here. This in reference to your dilemma above! 🤣
 

JessFR

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Critics argue that by not apologizing, Obama will allow Japan to stick to the narrative that paints it as a victim.

Rofl, what? What kinda logic is that. We tell them we're sorry for blowing them up and that means they can't call themselves the victim of being blown up?

What?
 

Buzz Lightbeer

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Who the fuck cares about apologizing now.
Disappointing to read that people still think it was justified or necessary, throwing not one, but two.... knowing the environmental impact + hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties, pure sadism. I don't care about their historical perspective, they knew Japan was gonna have to surrender soon.
 

JessFR

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Who the fuck cares about apologizing now.
Disappointing to read that people still think it was justified or necessary, throwing not one, but two.... knowing the environmental impact + hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties, pure sadism. I don't care about their historical perspective, they knew Japan was gonna have to surrender soon.

How soon is soon and how many American soldiers should expect to die for it?

Cause they didn't even surrender after the first bomb, no they decided to gamble their peoples lives that we were bluffing when we said we'd do it again.
 

Buzz Lightbeer

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How soon is soon and how many American soldiers should expect to die for it?
For 200k civilians? Do we need to have this discussion?
Soviets were in play as well, an invasion was planned but also would've been unnecessary.

UK and others decided not to mass carpet bomb Germany at the end of the war, decisions... in historical context I can somewhat understand agreeing with the bombing, but with hindsight I cannot grasp it at all, so far for all people are equal, installment 10
 

JessFR

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There's no point in evaluating it in hindsight. The question was were we right to do it, how can that question be judged using knowledge the people there at the time couldn't have known? That said I don't think the question is actually that cut and try with the benefit of hindsight anyway. There's a lot of unknowns about how history may have gone differently if you're gonna start expanding the question that far.

I suppose you can still say we were wrong to do it even if we were right to do it. It's hard to argue that bombing civilians can ever be truly "right".

The least wrong of all the wrong decisions available at the time would be my preferred description.
 
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Buzz Lightbeer

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I disagree, both ways of approaching the question are legit, depends on what we're trying to achieve.
Most people in the world lack all the historical context, so there's no point for us to act like we don't. Since it's more of a question of morals here, I believe the use of hindsight is justified. Especially since the original premise was about apologizing. If people did something wrong in hindsight, people will often apologize, disregarding the spur of the moment, not that I want anyone to specifically apologize.
 

CFC

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Just wondering if anybody else actually bothered to read the articles and paper from which this hogwash $45 trillion sum was fabricated? I get that it's provocative and a great starting point for a discussion n'all, and that the British Empire™ could be Evil™, but still...
 

birdup.snaildown

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^I didn't read it. I just assumed it was bullshit... The actual figure is impossible to calculate and totally irrelevant. Every country in the world would owe pretty much every other country some amount if you tallied up all of history. How much do the Italians owe for destruction at the hands of the Roman empire?
 
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