• Select Your Topic Then Scroll Down
    Alcohol Bupe Benzos
    Cocaine Heroin Opioids
    RCs Stimulants Misc
    Harm Reduction All Topics Gabapentinoids
    Tired of your habit? Struggling to cope?
    Want to regain control or get sober?
    Visit our Recovery Support Forums
  • Bluelight HOT THREADS
  • Let's Welcome Our NEW MEMBERS!

Heroin Heroin Addiction and Codeine Based Opiate Replacement Therapy

monstanoodle

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
10,888
Location
T'Norf
I'm going to be writing something about using "unconventional" methods of quitting Heroin, and other strong Opiate addictions.
If anyone's had success using methods that aren't "the norm" then please share your story. It will help me greatly :)

Any medications mentioned, any combinations, anything ;)
And things like time plan, tapering methods and alike.
It doesn't have to be using Codeine, but that will be one option I will be suggesting in this.

Thankyou :)

------

P.S. Mods - If you'd rather have this elsewhere then please shift it. I may make links in a couple of other sub-sections too.
 

dopiate

Bluelighter
Joined
Jun 1, 2009
Messages
283
Location
Spokane, WA
Dihydrocodeine is used in some countries like the UK and i believe some Asian countries.

The best replacement option for heroin is more heroin for sure.

I've also always wondered what other uncommon ailments doctors Rx opiates for too.
 

monstanoodle

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
10,888
Location
T'Norf
Quite right dopiate. Dihydrocodeine has been used more acceptably around the late 90's in the UK as an accompaniment to Methadone. They've recently started (though on very rare occasions) using it alone too. I've got beefs with that in some ways but it's a step.
 

Tchort

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
2,393
^^indeed its used in a few european countries, but i think the problem is its short half life.. i can imagine coming off a mild opiate addiction using DHC, but probably not a large scale addiction...

DHC does not have a ceiling like Codeine (MethylMorphine)/Dionine (Ethylmorphine) do. So doses can go as high as they need to- it can be enough to hold any addict as long as the dose is high enough (though this won't be practical in most circumstances :)). Plus DHC is available in extended release formulations (though I believe they use the instant release versions in the UK?).

Are you looking for treatments that actually work, or just weird shit certain doctors, hospitals or governments do to addicts and call it "Treatment"?

-"The Hypoascorbemia-Kwashiorkor Approach to Drug Addiction Therapy"

Drug addicts, like other humans, are born carrying a defective gene for the synthesis of the liver-enzyme protein, L-gulonolactone oxidase (GLO). This birth defect (Stone, 1966) causes a potentially fatal, but now readily correctable (Stone, 1967) genetic liver-enzyme disease, Hypoascorbemia (Stone, 1966a). This “inborn error of carbohydrate metabolism” has destroyed the capability of the human liver to synthesize ascorbate from blood glucose, and thus deprives mankind of this important mammalian mechanism for combatting stresses. The normal mammalian response to stress is to increase liver-synthesis of ascorbate as an antistressor and detoxicant to maintain biochemical homeostasis within the body (Stone, 1972).

Most mammals carry the intact gene for GLO and normally produce, under conditions of little stress, about 10 to 20 g of ascorbate per day per 70 kg body weight to take care of their daily physiological needs. A biochemical feedback mechanism evolved in the early mammals (Stone, 1972a) which increased daily ascorbate production possibly three to fivefold under a variety of chemical and physical stresses. Humans, among the very few mammals deprived of this homeostatic protective mechanism, suffer more physiological damage from equivalent stresses unless exogenous ascorbate is supplied. Thus a daily intake of 10 to 20 g of ascorbate by a relatively unstressed adult human is not excessively high, but well within the normal mammalian range. Under stress humans require about 30 to 100 g or more a day to maintain health. The therapeutic use of mega levels of ascorbate has met with great success in the treatment of the viral diseases (Klenner, 1974; Cathcart, 1976), cancer (Stone, 1976), and many other pathologies. The sub-subsistence, “homeopathic” daily intakes of ascorbate, recommended for the past 40 years by the nutritionists as “vitamin C” for humans, would barely suffice to keep the other mammals alive and certainly not in good health. The wide acceptance of this erroneous nutritional hypothesis by modern Medicine has only led to the continued persistence of chronic subclinical scurvy (CSS Syndrome) (Stone, 1972b; Stone, 1977) as our most widespread and insidious human disease at present.


. . .

On drugs, the addicts lose their appetite for food. Food deprivation or restriction leads to severe protein and vitamin malnutrition. All the chronic addicts tested suffer from hypoaminoaciduria. This has led us to regard a confirmed addict as suffering from a Hypoascorbemia-Kwashiorkor type of syndrome, and our treatment procedure was designed as an intensive holistic approach for the full correction of these genetic and multimalnutritional dysfunctions. The procedure is completely orthomolecular, and no foreign substance or toxic narcotic or drug is used.

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/197x/libby-af-orthomol_psych-1977-v6-n4-p300.htm

-Belladonna Cure -administering deleriant doses of Scopolamine (with or without Hyoscyamine and other Belladonna alkaloids) to keep the addict out of his mind through the period of withdrawal (which he may not remember afterward).

-Sleeping Cure -administering supratherapeutic doses of tranquilizers and/or sedatives (Chloral Hydrate, Paraldehyde, Sodium Bromide, etc) to keep the addict unconscious for the entire period of acute withdrawal.

-Vomiting cure -a Buddhist temple in Asia has become a mecca for various drug addicts. The monks concocted a recipe and protocol to treat all addictions after a lost and helpless Westerner addicted to Opium stumbled on their temple and begged for help. The substance they created is a mixture of hundreds of natural ingredients- and it causes almost a near immediate vomiting spell that lasts for several minutes/several seperate 'regurgitations' (all of the patients gather, at 'medicine time', at a stone trough dug into the ground with water running through it, so when the nausea and vomiting hits them, they all vomit together into this trough and the water carries the vomit away). They say it cleanses the body and cures addiction.

-Apomorphine -sub-emetic doses are used to stop withdrawal symptoms completely. Burroughs spoke highly of the treatment. Injections of Apomorphine in accureately measured doses is continued until the patient no longer experiences withdrawal without the Apomorphine. When Apomorphine is stopped, no symptoms of withdrawal develop.
 

Eight0Eight

Bluelighter
Joined
Sep 2, 2008
Messages
1,541
Location
UK
-Vomiting cure -a Buddhist temple in Asia has become a mecca for various drug addicts. The monks concocted a recipe and protocol to treat all addictions after a lost and helpless Westerner addicted to Opium stumbled on their temple and begged for help. The substance they created is a mixture of hundreds of natural ingredients- and it causes almost a near immediate vomiting spell that lasts for several minutes/several seperate 'regurgitations' (all of the patients gather, at 'medicine time', at a stone trough dug into the ground with water running through it, so when the nausea and vomiting hits them, they all vomit together into this trough and the water carries the vomit away). They say it cleanses the body and cures addiction.

This is (one of) the place's pete doherty tried to get off smack.

If I remember right, he lasted 2 days than did a runner to Bangkok for smack.
 

theartofwar

Bluelighter
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
Messages
3,265
Location
Boston
I'm on 8th day dome w/ds tramadol is an option, I just want to get rid of the RLS it's driving me nuttier than squirrel shit... aside from the rec dosages that ppl use tramadol or ultram has anyone had success atleast easing the RLS symptoms w/tram?
 

Unknown

Bluelighter
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
5,205
In the US, doctors arent allowed to rx narcotics for detox maintenance. The only approved drugs are methadone (CII) and buprenorphine in subutex/suboxone preparations (CIII).

I think buprenorphine is the best way to get off that shit...
 

smokeymcpot42088

Bluelighter
Joined
Dec 23, 2006
Messages
1,272
Bupe has been working really well for me.

My advice, first stabalize at a comfortable dose that will make any relapse attempts all but futile. (4mg + IME)..Than work on tapering down and off.

The kick is not easy and Ive only made it to day 3, which people say "it hasnt even started to get bad yet"... But it really evens out your lifestyle and is super easy to taper on. Every cut back ive made has been all but completely painless.
 

themindlessone

Bluelighter
Joined
Dec 15, 2005
Messages
256
Location
Erie PA/St. Petersburg FL
In the US, doctors arent allowed to rx narcotics for detox maintenance. The only approved drugs are methadone (CII) and buprenorphine in subutex/suboxone preparations (CIII).

I think buprenorphine is the best way to get off that shit...

I got scripted 120 100mg Darvocet-N pills to detox with once. Total waste of time.
 

monstanoodle

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
10,888
Location
T'Norf
DHC does not have a ceiling like Codeine (MethylMorphine)/Dionine (Ethylmorphine) do. So doses can go as high as they need to- it can be enough to hold any addict as long as the dose is high enough (though this won't be practical in most circumstances :)). Plus DHC is available in extended release formulations (though I believe they use the instant release versions in the UK?).

Are you looking for treatments that actually work, or just weird shit certain doctors, hospitals or governments do to addicts and call it "Treatment"?

They do use IR version in the UK yes. A bit silly, I think they should use both ER and IR formulations. That's the thing, I'm thinking about multi-approach treatments - using multiple Opiates/oids, at different times, doses and combinations. Other meds such as Clonidine and alike in combo also at different times etc.
I'm sure someone mention (for the US) in a thread that they were thinking, with their doc, of using Methadone and then slowly tapering that whilst administering a shorter acting, though powerful Opioid (Oxycodone I think it was).
This is the kind of thing I'm thinking about and jotting ideas down.

I'm going to be speaking with a friend who did a speech about Heroin addiction and the benefits of legalizing Heroin in the UK (to which she got a standing ovation :) ) about it also and using some of her ideas in it too as reference.

And yes, please, please keep adding to this thread :) It's turning out really well so far. Just try keep it on topic as best you can ;)
It's nice to know what people have tried, what's worked (to whatever degree) and what hasn't.

Thanks much guys ♥
 

Shambles

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
52,287
Location
A Pottering Shed Somewhere in the Scotchland
Not an opiate replacement therapy, but Iboga looks very interesting. I would say that cos it swirls though ;)

DFs (120mg DHC pills but also a generic term for any straight DHC pilll where I lived - even amongst doctors) were one of my main crutches for sudden unexpected withdrawal syndrome in my heavy opiate abuse years and can work wonders. I found then to be very effective in the short-term at least. It was boring ol' bupe and the right mindset that finally ended my junkydom once and for all (I hope) though. I suspect the mindset part is the most vital part of the equation - for me at least.
 

Tchort

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
2,393
Here is an article explaining the benefits of adding an opioid to outpatient symptom management regimines for opioid addicts trying to detox. Specifically the author is pushing Propoxyphene (Darvon) to the long half-life of its main metabolite, it's relative worthlessness on the street as an illicit drug, and the effect it can have on the amount of other medications necessary to keep a detoxing addict comfortable through withdrawals (with Darvon, much smaller doses of Benzodiazepines, Clonidine, etc are used, whereas without it much larger doses are required).

http://www.doctordeluca.com/Library/DetoxEngage/OBOT_Detox.htm

The use of less abuse-able opiates, as part of a good outpatient regimen (daily visits, only enough medication dispensed or prescribed to get the patient to the next visit, daily BAC and urine toxicology, strong compliance contracting) can be a beneficial part of the treatment in several ways:

1. Lower doses of clonidine (0.1 – 0.5 mg /day versus 1.0 – 1.5 mg /day) can be used, thereby reducing the morbidity and potentially serious side effects of high doses of that agent.

2. Lower doses of benzodiazepines (diazepam 5 – 15 mg/day versus 30 – 60 mg /day) can be used, thereby reducing the risk of over sedation and of potentially dangerous interaction with alcohol. This also reduces the amount of benzodiazepine medication dispensed or prescribed, thereby limiting the risks of abuse and diversion.

3. Judicious use of selected opioid medications may improve outcomes by reducing both withdrawal severity and medication side effects. This is a highly researchable area in which much more work needs to be done in this area.

In this context, consider the use of propoxyphene (Darvon or Darvon-N) as part of a clonidine detoxification regimen. Propoxyphene is an analgesic intermediate in action between aspirin and codeine. It has been widely used to control the symptoms of narcotic withdrawal. Tennant, using Darvon N as the sole detoxification medication, treated 400 heroin addicts with a five day taper from 1400 mg to 600 mg (higher doses than would be required as an adjunctive to clonidine). He reported good results with minimal withdrawal symptoms after abrupt discontinuation of Darvon, and patients remained alert and active throughout the treatment.

Propoxyphene offers several advantages as an outpatient detoxification agent (see Sidney Cohen, “Darvon N: Its Role in Opiate Addiction”, in The Substance Abuse Problems, Vol I, Hayward Press, 1981):

1. Long-acting metabolites make propoxyphene a reasonable choice pharmacologically.

2. Both salts of propoxyphene are safe in the doses used, especially considering they will be used as adjunctive medication and only for several days in most regimens. Recovery from overdose has been documented following the ingestion of 6,500 mg of Darvon and 9,000 mg of Darvon N alone. The initial adjunctive daily dose of propoxyphene for the stabilization of withdrawal rarely exceeds 650 mg.

3. Unlike most opioids, propoxyphene is considered to be relatively dysphoric at higher doses and there is generally little patient demand to increase the dose. It is not highly prized by addicts, “Much of its non-medical use seems to be directed towards reducing a heroin ‘habit’ or avoiding withdrawal effects of heroin…” rather than as a ‘get high’ drug. Abuse has been documented (Tennant, 1973, reporting on American soldiers stationed in West Germany under conditions of extreme accessibility) but seems to be very uncommon.

4. It has very poor solubility in water and injection of suspended material is painful and sclerosing. Intravenous use will never be popular.

5. Propoxyphene in combination with clonidine permits lower doses of both medications to be used.
 

morphonorconic

Bluelighter
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
1,493
Location
Location
I like the recent emergence of threads discussing this topic, and I see I am not the only one who feels the same way. Perhaps these threads might be merged into a mega-thread of sorts, to extend a sort of permanent invitation to all BL'ers to lend their input toward the idea of what Opioids would be best suited for Replacement Therapy/Maintenance/Detoxification purposes etc.
 

monstanoodle

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
10,888
Location
T'Norf
Thanks muchly for that Tchort :)
I'd personally hate using Propoxyphene for maintainence or detox purposes.
 
Top