Heroin help with suboxone/heroin question. i think i messed up bad

[Laquintahusker]

ok so first of all let me start off by saying this is my first post and I'm sorry if this question has been asked elsewhere. I have been reading a lot of BL forms lately an I haven't been able to find this exact scenario post. and I love the support that is going on here.

ok so I really seriously do want to get off heroin, my body is heroin dependent even though ive been fucking with it the last few days. and I've been trying for a few days now but I've been failing. ok so I tried to induct myself on Wednesday. waited til I was feeling pretty shitty and then took 2mg every 30-45mins. I got up to 8mg and I was still feeling shitty and I went and got more dope and got myself well. I didn't get high, but it took the edge off. the next day I tried again(with the 8 from the day before still in my system. the problem is that I still had dope, so I took only 2mg and then was like "screw it" I'm just going to use some dope. and I used all that day. today I woke up and didn't take any suboxone and used all day. I want to try and induce sunday. so I'm going to do my last tomorrow morning and try and do it sunday morning. is this a safe plan or idea? cause I know ill still have subs in my system from the other days, does that mess things up? has anyone ever inducted, relapsed, took a little more suboxone, kept using, and then just inducted with suboxone still in their system

look i don't need to hear about how stupid of a choice it was to use while on suboxone, and then keep taking it while using. i just had 3 years clean and relapsed for like 2 months now. i got clean in a rehab setting, but ive done it with subs too, so i know I'm playing with fire, no need to talk down about what i did cause i know it was stupid i just need to know if the suboxone will work if i do it this way. please any help would be very appreciated. and if someone wants to please help me and walk me through this process i would be deeply appreciated. just a drug addict trying to get clean....again... thanks.

 

[Znegative]

hey man, don't worry you're not in as bad of a situation as you think, and i and many other people I have known personally have repeatedly gone back and forth between heroin relapsing and inducting themselves again and again, granted its not a wonderful idea, IME it makes getting back on the suboxone harder after a while, but if you wait 'till Sunday morning you shouldn't have much problem with the subs. I might try starting off with 4mg- I know you'll hear 'less is more' a lot on these forums when it comes to buprenorphine, but people are often referring to 'less being more' in terms of buprenorphine after a person has stabilized and tapered down. When inducting ones self, I know I personally needed at least 4mg, if not much more (this last time I didn't really feel comfortable the first day until I had dosed a total of 12mg). I've been on subs 10 days now I think, I'm trying to keep my dose to 8mg and to stabilize at that, which is a bit uncomfortable but I got some weird hangup about taking more (probably because in the past I had tapered myself down to 1mg a day for maintenance and it is true you get more agonist effects at lower dosages after your tolerance has dropped). If you're taking 2mg at a time because you're worried that any more will send you into precipitated withdrawals, I can almost 100% assure you that in your situation, after 24 hours it won't, but taking small dosages might not be enough to take care of your withdrawals.

 

[crzydiamond]

Well, if you have the sub left in your body at all, you won't have to worry about precipitated withdrawal.

You should be fine. Do whatever you're going to do today. Wait until you're not feeling great on Sunday. Then start with a trial of 1 mg-- just to make sure you don't go into precip wd ( as you will be close to the 3 days it lasts having taken 2 days off prior to Sunday) then go up as needed

Just one other thing-- you said how after 8 mg you still felt shitty? That's common the first couple days on sub. You have to try to tough it out. Sub is never going to make you feel as good as heroin. ( I don't get along well with sub... Even on a minor habit I felt like crap inducing for the first couple days. I finally was like screw this, if I'm goin to be sick ill just kick/ why go through feeling like crap only to be dependent on another opiate. Lol but that's my experience--weird body chemistry. Others do great with it. I used to get jealous)

Anyway long story short-- you should be fine, but start low in case you aren't " sick enough" or there is no sub left on your receptors, so you avoid precip wd.

Good luck with your goal

 

[Znegative]

I don't know, I guess I can see both sides to the argument, but I kind of think starting off with a low dosage like that is pointless because its probably not going to do anything for the OP if he has any real tolerance. Yeah precipitated withdrawals can SUCK, especially if you get them from shooting up the suboxone, but IME they only last an hour or two MAX and then the buprenorphine settles into your receptors and you get relief. I think if I were inducting myself and sick as fuck after 24 hours of not using heroin taking 1mg of buprenorphine would be confusing cause I'd probably still be going through withdrawals and not know whether I had taken the suboxone too soon or not. I understand that for some people 1mg of buprenorphine is plenty, but for others like myself, starting off at such a dose would be ludicrous. I d get what you're saying though in terms of using a low dose just to test the waters and make sure that you've waited long enough.

I just feel like there's this weird 'less is more' dogma on these forums which isn't always the case, I realize crzdiamond that that is not at all what you're saying, but it is what a lot of people say here and I think it causes a lot of misconception about buprenorphine in terms of maintenance and induction.

 

[crzydiamond]

Yeah, I know what you're saying. I am not telling him only take 1 mg. You are correct in that the "less is more" tenet doesn't really apply to someone initially inducting. At that point you just want to get well/stabilized

But if you take @1 mg and go into precipitated wd, you will KNOW. It's just so much worse than regular wd. It's like having days 2-5 all hit you at once. Happened to me and it was awful. Nothing really helps either, I did dope but it barely helped 3 hours (and 3 shots) later.

After one takes a small dose to make sure he won't go into precip wd, then I would say take another 4 or 8 or whatever he thinks he would need. I agree with you--coming off a big full agonist habit he probably needs a decent dose at least the first few days...

I just think better safe than sorry. Precip wd is way worse on 4 or 8 mg than on 1 mg. So to me it just makes sense--make sure you're not going to put yourself thru hell. Then take what you need

And this is general advice. For this particular OP, he may not need the "allergy test" (lol) as he has sub recently in his system. But again. It doesn't hurt to take 1 mg, wait 10-15 min and by then you'll be certain you're good to go.

 

[peacelovehope]

I don't know, I guess I can see both sides to the argument, but I kind of think starting off with a low dosage like that is pointless because its probably not going to do anything for the OP if he has any real tolerance. Yeah precipitated withdrawals can SUCK, especially if you get them from shooting up the suboxone, but IME they only last an hour or two MAX and then the buprenorphine settles into your receptors and you get relief. I think if I were inducting myself and sick as fuck after 24 hours of not using heroin taking 1mg of buprenorphine would be confusing cause I'd probably still be going through withdrawals and not know whether I had taken the suboxone too soon or not. I understand that for some people 1mg of buprenorphine is plenty, but for others like myself, starting off at such a dose would be ludicrous. I d get what you're saying though in terms of using a low dose just to test the waters and make sure that you've waited long enough.

I just feel like there's this weird 'less is more' dogma on these forums which isn't always the case, I realize crzdiamond that that is not at all what you're saying, but it is what a lot of people say here and I think it causes a lot of misconception about buprenorphine in terms of maintenance and induction.

!

The "less is more" is generally true, the thing is it takes 3 days for suboxone to peak in your system and do it's thing. I don't have experience with a heavy habit, but with a mild habit I can say I was happy as a turnip seed on the 3rd day! Also, I was taking pills for pain management and the Dr switched me, and the suboxone worked much better on the pain than the pills I was taking with all their ups and downs, but I imagine you would experience the same thing with heroin with the ups and downs.

 

[Znegative]

Right, generally true for maintenance but not induction IMO, you don't NEED to always wait three days to feel relief from suboxone. 8-16mg will generally take most people even those with sizable habits out of withdrawal whereas 1-2mg may not. But yes if you're on maintenance and want to maximize the agonist effects of Buprenorphine, I always found it was best under 2mg, but you need to get your tolerance down first in order to appreciate a low dose. In my experience it takes three days to adjust to a lowered dose, and after a full week I was stabilized on it. I wouldn't suggest any heroin user with a high tolerance to just take 2mg when first getting on Buprenorphine, the point is to feel relief from withdrawal, I guess if 2mg would cut it for you then God bless but I've never found a dose under four milligrams sufficient in curbing my withdrawal and cravings when switching from full to partial agonist..

 

[manboychef]

You are not going to feel 100% for the first day at least. You won't feel 0% either. Basically you are just going to need to tough it out for a couple days.

Yes to induce you should be taking at least 4mg after you make sure you are not experiencing precip withdrawal. You may need up to 8-10mg in order to get to near baseline. Remember, induction means slowly getting to that level. You might also want to add some magnessium to the mix as it helps the bupe work better.

 

[peacelovehope]

Right, generally true for maintenance but not induction IMO, you don't NEED to always wait three days to feel relief from suboxone. 8-16mg will generally take most people even those with sizable habits out of withdrawal whereas 1-2mg may not. But yes if you're on maintenance and want to maximize the agonist effects of Buprenorphine, I always found it was best under 2mg, but you need to get your tolerance down first in order to appreciate a low dose. In my experience it takes three days to adjust to a lowered dose, and after a full week I was stabilized on it. I wouldn't suggest any heroin user with a high tolerance to just take 2mg when first getting on Buprenorphine, the point is to feel relief from withdrawal, I guess if 2mg would cut it for you then God bless but I've never found a dose under four milligrams sufficient in curbing my withdrawal and cravings when switching from full to partial agonist..

I should have been more clear, what I meant was you won't feel the full effects taking the same dosage until the 3rd day. You should definitely get relief right away. The OP was taking 2mg every 30-45 minutes, so he wasn't exactly taking 2mg total. Even with a lower tolerance than that I was started on 4mg every 8hrs. I think anyone who take bupe should read up on it, because it is a complex drug with multiple actions, and the pharmaceutical company promoted it on lies, making it even more confusing. LIE-shooting up bupe will cause P/W, not true unless you haven't been on it for a decent length of time, if you shoot up too soon, it's a matter of flooding your receptors while there are other opiates not completely clear of them yet (I do NOT suggest injecting pills, it's just this is a fallacy). LIE It cannot be used for pain management (It IS used for acute, chronic, and post-operative pain (in opiate naive individuals) all over the world, the US pharma co make this up), LIE It is the naloxone that causes P/W, the naloxone is nothing but a marketing tool, it's completely ineffective in the amount in the medication, it's the bupe itself that causes P/W...so other than what the pharmaceutical companies in the US say, I suggest anyone on bupe research it whether they have been on it in the past or not.
As for the OP's problem, I'm not sure what it is, taking it in 2mg increments every 30-45 min, not being in full W/D. I would suggest taking no less than 4mg every 6-8hrs (as needed) to start, and taking the dose all at once. Of course it's imperative to be in withdrawals, but it seems after 24 hrs if your eyes are watering extensively, chills, stomach issues, etc it should be safe to start on a regular dose. I would NOT suggest any other ROA on the first few days other than oral. Perhaps the problem was he was taking it in increments, and doesn't say the total mg taken. I don't think it would be as effective spread out while inducting. But there are ways to measure the level of W/D you are in to be safe from P/W so that you can initiate a decent dose.

 

[peacelovehope]

I don't know, I guess I can see both sides to the argument, but I kind of think starting off with a low dosage like that is pointless because its probably not going to do anything for the OP if he has any real tolerance. Yeah precipitated withdrawals can SUCK, especially if you get them from shooting up the suboxone, but IME they only last an hour or two MAX and then the buprenorphine settles into your receptors and you get relief. I think if I were inducting myself and sick as fuck after 24 hours of not using heroin taking 1mg of buprenorphine would be confusing cause I'd probably still be going through withdrawals and not know whether I had taken the suboxone too soon or not. I understand that for some people 1mg of buprenorphine is plenty, but for others like myself, starting off at such a dose would be ludicrous. I d get what you're saying though in terms of using a low dose just to test the waters and make sure that you've waited long enough.

I just feel like there's this weird 'less is more' dogma on these forums which isn't always the case, I realize crzdiamond that that is not at all what you're saying, but it is what a lot of people say here and I think it causes a lot of misconception about buprenorphine in terms of maintenance and induction.

I agree, I think the "less is more" comes in because most people who take drugs tend to think "more is better", and bupe doesn't work that way. It doesn't apply to everything and can certainly backfire when inducting. Bupe is the only drug you can take less of than you did at the outset and feel better. It has a really long half-life, and you don't need to dose as often once you have been on it awhile, and you won't feel W/D if you are late taking it. Bupe is 25-40 times stronger than morphine in it's analgesic relief, so it's a very powerful opiate. It's a complex medication, and I think the "less is more" comes in when people try to simplify it because it is so complex.

 

[Laquintahusker]

So is the general consensus that as long as I wait until I am in mild-moderate withdrawals and then start the dose I should be fine? I know it's not gonna make me feel 100% but I've taken it before and it's damn close to 100% for me. I'll probably start at 4mg, im prescribed 16mg a day. That's what it usually takes to feel better for me on the first few days. I'll just tough it out. It's just my habit has gotten way worse the past 2 weeks because I ran into some money so I've been keeping myself (extremely) well. I'm at about a $200-$300 a day habit right now. Maybe it will take even more than 16mg my first day? Idk. I'll test it out.

 

[Znegative]

yeah I think you'll be ok for sure, I don't know, i for one have felt 100% relief from withdrawals, but that's different from feeling 100%. 100% for me is what heroin does.