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God given rights. Do you really have any?

Gormur said:
I can't tell if it's a flaw though, since I lack perfection. At least that's according to a Biblical view :) However I have a different view where I know that I'm perfect and the reasons are all before me
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We all are, we are all perfectly imperfect human beings.
 
I don't understand. Imperfect to me sounds like you wish a person was somebody else who you think is better, for whatever reason. That doesn't have anything to do with being perfect
 
Gormur said:
I don't understand. Imperfect to me sounds like you wish a person was somebody else who you think is better, for whatever reason. That doesn't have anything to do with being perfect
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How in any, way, shape or form does it mean that? To say that is a misunderstanding and mischaracterization of my words is an understatement.
 
It means no one is perfect, and that, in and of itself, is perfection. It's what makes human beings uniquely beautiful - flaws and all.
 
I don't follow. What's perfect in your view? Is it the world? If not humans I have no idea what you're saying here
 
Negativland - Time Zones (excerpt from) said:
("WA6ODB... with... a question...")
"And, uh ..."
"Do you know how many time zones there are in the Soviet Union?"
"And about power ..."
"D'you kn--"
"We got so much power now ..."
"Do you know how many time zones there are in the Soviet Union?"
"We got so much power now, that's ridiculous."
"D'you kn-- do you know how many time zones there are in the Soviet Union?"
"Power, and all that, that's power, we got so much power, that's
Ridiculous."
"We have--"
"Power, power, power, power, power, power now, it's ridiculous. We
Got so much power now ..."
"Do you know how many time zones there are in the Soviet Union?"
"It's not even funny."
"D'you--"
"That's ridiculous."
"Do you know how many--"
"It'
S not even funny."
"D'you kn--"
"That's ridiculous."
"Do you know how many--"
"That's, that's ridiculous."
"Do you know how many time--"
"That's ridiculous. It's not even funny."
"D'you--"
"It's not even funny."
"D--"
"It's not even funny."
"Do you know how many time zones there are in the Soviet Union?"
"It's not even funny.
How many time zones?"
"Yeah. We have, we have four in this country, right?"
(Hello?)
"How many time zones?"
"Yeah."
(Hello? Yes.)
"1, 2, 3 ..."
"Four in this country, right?"
"Uh, yessir."
"Mm hm."
"Uh, four ... 1, 2, 3 ... yessir."
"Right."
"1, 2, 3 ... yessir."
"Mm hm."
("...radio station, Radio Moscow")
"Uh, four ... time zones?"
"Yeah. We have four in this country, right?"
"Uh, nosir."
"We have, we have--"
"Uh, yessir."
"Mm hm."
"And, uh ..."
"Do you know how many time zones they have?"
"Uh, yessir. Uh, four ... uh, nosir. I never really studied that up."
"Eleven."
"Eleven. It's not even funny."
"Eleven."
"Eleven. That's, that's ridiculous."
"Eleven."
"Eleven. Well, that's what we can do. We can go anywhere, because
We live here, we--"
"Yeah, but--"
"--anywhere else."
"But, not only, not only the right of free travel, I'm saying... eleven."
"Eleven. 1, 2, 3 ... yessir."
"Mm hm. Eleven."
"Eleve
N."
"That's how big they are."
"Yeah. Yeah. Eleven."
(What happened to my call?)
"That's how big they are."
"Yeah. Yeah. I, I can believe that, I'm a firm believer in that."
"Alright."
"1, 2, 3 ... uh, four ... yessir. 1, 2 ... yessir. Yessir."
"Mm hm."
(...Radio Moscow, 215 2101)
"The Soviet Union's the whole half side of the world."
"Yeah."
"And we're just a little, one little tenth of the globe."
"Yeah."
"They, uh, when you talk about fightin', we're a country that, uh,
We're a firm beli
Ever on pride, and it's called help thy neighbor,
Do not kill, do not, you know, steal, cheat, lie from everybody.
That's why we have to have computers, because man, nobody is perfect.
You know."
"Mm hm."
"It's not even funny."
"D'you--"
"And about p
Ower, man, nobody is perfect. You know."
"So what is your point?"
"Nobody is perfect. You know."
"So what is your point, Glen?"
"There's, there's, there's two things you don't talk about, one's
Politics, the other one's religion.
"D'you--"
"The reason
You don't talk about 'em is because they combine in
Each other. You know what I'm saying?"
"Do you know how many time zones there are in the Soviet Union?"
"You know what I'm saying?"
"Don't you kid yourself. Thanks, Glen, for the uh... well, just thanks for
The, the good thoughts."
Click to expand...
 
Gormur said:
I can't tell if it's a flaw though, since I lack perfection. At least that's according to a Biblical view :) However I have a different view where I know that I'm perfect and the reasons are all before me
Click to expand...

Perfect, yet you claimed elsewhere you do not know anything.

Do try for consistency. You do not show any and that is why I mostly ignore you.

Regards
DL
 
Gormur said:
I don't follow. What's perfect in your view? Is it the world? If not humans I have no idea what you're saying here
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We live in the best of all possible worlds, given that this is the only possible world, given our history, entropy and the anthropic principle.

It is not what we would see as perfect as we all have things we would change if we could.

Language is also a problem when those like in the U.S posit moving to a more perfect state.

Perfect is subjective, and we each have our opinion on what perfection is.

Regards
DL
 
Gnostic Bishop said:
We live in the best of all possible worlds, given that this is the only possible world, given our history, entropy and the anthropic principle
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Not sure about this. We live on the same planet but we live in different worlds. Syrian refugees living in tents do not live in the same world as starving Ethiopian kids with no clean water to drink who do not live in the same world as pampered, over-privileged Western society who feel miserable because their iPhone's battery life in lousy.

Gnostic Bishop said:
Perfect is subjective
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Agreed.
 
We live in the best of all possible worlds, given that this is the only possible world, given our history, entropy and the anthropic principle.
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That's a rather, erm, bold claim. "Best" as defined by what metrics?

How do you come to the conclusion this is the "only possible world"? Yes, it's the consensus reality we all happen to share, but what exactly is so special about our particular universe? Seems to me that there very well be other possible configurations that eventually result in some approximation of intelligence. (actually, given how probability works and how Big space is, multiply how long a universe lasts for... that's a lot of time and a lot of potential cradles of new intelligence. It is not far fetched to make the claim that some sort of intelligence is inevitable after a long enough time rather than some unique privilege we have exclusively.
 
empeebee said:
Not sure about this
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Then show how the world could be better given the history that got us to this point in time.

We all have wish lists to improve the world, but that can only effect the future and not the past.

Here is my Gnostic Christian thinking. It expands a bit on what I put.

------

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religions originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.

1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.

-----------

The Gnostic Christian reality.

Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.

[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL
 
sekio said:
That's a rather, erm, bold claim. "Best" as defined by what metrics?

How do you come to the conclusion this is the "only possible world"? Yes, it's the consensus reality we all happen to share, but what exactly is so special about our particular universe? Seems to me that there very well be other possible configurations that eventually result in some approximation of intelligence. (actually, given how probability works and how Big space is, multiply how long a universe lasts for... that's a lot of time and a lot of potential cradles of new intelligence. It is not far fetched to make the claim that some sort of intelligence is inevitable after a long enough time rather than some unique privilege we have exclusively.
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Your comments have little to no relevance to my post. Given our history and reality, this is the only possible way our world can be.

I did give a slightly longer explanation just above. Please see if that helps you understand my view.

For a closer look at yourself, recognize that you are the best you can be given your education, upbringing etc. that has made you what you are yoday, warts and all.

Regards
DL
 
Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?
Click to expand...

Why the need for good/bad dualism? I generally see things as, well, things. There is no absolute definition of beauty or perfection, why is it neccesary to deliver a value judgement on all around us?

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement
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A refutation with the many-worlds theory, then:
Assume there are, indeed, many similar yet not strictly identical universes resembling ours, with developed intelligences etc, (ignore non-populated ones: this is trivial thanks to the nature of infinite sets). Let's keep this "simple" and assume a large but finite number of candidate worlds (though I would assume there would no doubt be an infinite amount). Now choose the "best" universe from the set. If we assume that we are no more likely to be any one particular universe over another, this means we can estimate the probability that it's our universe. Too bad for us, that limit approaches zero as the number of potential universes rises.

A philosophical fly in the ointment: If we are indeed the best possible universe it would therefore imply that any changes would, by virtue of not being the strictly same universe, never be positive changes. You have to be a special kind of despondent to adopt the attitude that everything is fine as it is right now. The USA is shitting the bed and there's a global pandemic. And anything else would be "worse"? What?
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For a closer look at yourself, recognize that you are the best you can be given your education, upbringing etc. that has made you what you are yoday, warts and all.
Click to expand...

The thing is, I don't view myself that way. I'm not infallible nor am I perfect. Yes, it's true I am here now by my own decisions, but I really do believe that if I could go back in time I'd do some things differently. There are still hard lessons I will have to learn, and the potential for both growth and decay remains ever present.

I view this as a practical thing more than any. Rumination is one of my dislikes, but I'm not immune to criticism. The mere fact I'm here now doesn't justify some of my actions or choices. I don't see the need to allow myself to become crippled by emotions, but also I admit, discuss, and plan around my past failures instead of just blind acceptance.
 
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So if the limit approaches zero the more potential worlds there are, would that mean the potential for our world to change 'for better' increases as the the number of potential worlds increase?
 
The progression of any individual world, if it's analogous to a random walk over the 1d line, might well progress through every potential ranking given sufficient time. That is, every world that is neither best nor worst can either become better or worse with each decision.
 
empeebee said:
I honestly couldn't tell you how your world/reality could be better. Only you know what you could do to make your world better.

I know how mine could be better though :)

./empeebee
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How, without changing the past?

Read what I put above again and try to understand it.

Regards
.DL
 
How, without changing the past?
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Actions in the present?

You ever played Myst? What'd Atrus say, "The ending has not yet been written?".
 
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