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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

GHB? Where are your choices taking you?

The GHB issue is one with many facets which make simple solutions difficult.

What is clear is that GHB is a very dose dependent drug which reacts differently based on a range of factors incluging:
- tolerence
- metabolism
- quality (and whether it is really GHB as opposed to GBL or 1-4B)
- personal body chemistry

There is no amazing solution to a GHB overdose or intoxication (although a few trials have shown promise). GHB and it's precursor drugs need to metablolise out of the person's system over time. In the meantime all you can do is monitor and provide supportive care and possibly respiratory support.

What is clear is that GHB overdoses or extreme intoxications are time critical in their management. People who get help tend to survive. Anecdotally, the people who die on G have been left in someone's lounge room or something similar. In fact, there has been no recorded incidence of someone dying from GHB in Australia if first aid or paramedic assistance has arrived while the person was still breathing effectively. So if someone G's out, get help and do it fast.

Harm minimisation comes through a number of actions:
- Strong education so people understand the risks of the GHB family of substances
- Having appropriately equipped and trained first aid staff at event
- Teaching people to get help early (REMEMBER IN NSW AT LEAST, ONCE YOU CALL THE AMBOS, THE POLICE ARE UNLIKELY TO BUST ANYONE- IT IS THEIR POLICY)

Incidently, one of the interesting things about G is that because of the amnesic effect, people don;t actually remember their overdose, therefore, they don;t have a point of reference for how bad they felt. This has been shown in a recent study by NDARC. Compare this to getting a poor quality smacky pill. Most people will remember the four hours of vomiting and spinning out and are unkeen to do it again!

Being in charge of medical for a large number of Sydney's dance venues and parties, I have definitely noticed a rise in G use over the last year or two, however, effective management of G related issues is proving to have some solid effect in avoiding negative outcomes from GHB use. No drug is really safe, but thise who follow harm minimisation principles are clearly having better health outcomes related to GHB use.

Cheers,

Buck
 
What's the use of a crystal ball?

^^ Thanks for the post buck_reed.


From the article;

...A month ago, Dillon went to a school in Sydney's inner-west to talk about drugs to 15- and 16-year-olds. There was just one drug they wanted to know about - G. "They were all being offered it, many of them had tried it, and because it was so cheap, it was the drug they were going to start messing around with - and they knew nothing about it, not a thing."

As RaveSafe Qld coordinator in 2002, I made the appropriate warnings to QH concerning teenagers and G before schoolies week that year. After the teams' first few encounters, we wanted very descriptive and sensible HR pamphlets and cards. But like most of our predictions and suggestions, they fell on deaf ears and the outcome was completely as expected.

Inexpensive drugs - who'd you think would be first in line ?
 
I've been exposed to G and various analogues (GBL and 14B) over the period of a few years now. I was able to sample 'proper' GHB in Chicago in 2000 and found it very intoxicating (even with a relative small dose).

Back at home I came across GBL and 14b. After exhaustive research I chose to guinea pig my self, full well knowing the dose dependency is critical - and yet still managed to poison myself badly a couple of times. With the substance I was imbibing, I found 5ml (measured) was the correct dose for a hassle free and enjoyable experience. 7ml for example seemed just a little too much for myself- but then this differs for everybody I realise.

Realising that a mere difference of a couple of measured ml's can mean the difference between a pleasant experience and a head-down-the-toilet episode, I basically ensured that whoever was to have some was staying put inside, not getting behind the wheel of the car or drinking absolutely NO booze - I became the designated 'G-sitter' on too many occasions I care to remember!!!!

All it takes is some bozo with no respect for the substance (after being explicitly told of where/when/how/how not to use it) to go and down a bottle of vodka and drink 40ml of GBL and wind up in hospital. The medics and then the boys in blue make their enquiries and then yadda yadda...cats out the bag..... hits the papers etc!

Its all about responsibility / respect and knowing a little about what it is yr taking. Gee the internets a great start to do a little reading here and there
:)

One thing I will mention is that I've heard from close sources that its great to bring a roll back on....a small dose just as the pills fadiing shoots one back up fora hour or two more....

I have found it beneficial for sleeping and considering the 'intoxicating' effect -i've yet to suffer any kind of hangover, in fact I've noticed on several occasions I've felt better and more rested the next day....

my 5c.... ;)
 
Thanks for sharing your experiences carlilarlos.


Its all about responsibility / respect and knowing a little about what it is yr taking.

When the dose response curve is so steep as in the case of G chems, I think this should probably say ....know a lot about what it is yr taking.

G drugs are like heroin, like cyanide, like hydrogen sulphide etc, etc, etc.

The common factor is they all have steep dose/ response curves. In other words, a little does nothing, a little more does nothing, a little more does something, but just a little more is life threatening.

In the above example, the dosages needed to cause death are very different for each substance, (apart from H2S and HCN which are surprisingly close) but the slope of the dose response curve is what kills in acute poisonings.
 
Two and a half years - no passouts.

I've always enjoyed 1,4B with a respect for the rules that borders on obsessive. I can't enjoy it properly if I'm worried about one of my friends and as a result have become the designated doser during G sessions. It might sound overly controlling but I introduced 1,4 to my group of friends and am the most experienced, so it's my resposibility to keep them from fucking up. They know their own doses - we write all mls and times down on one sheet of paper - and the rules have been stressed to them and BL FAQ emailed to them, so they understand it's good to be anal (figuratively speaking). Still, even with all these precautions and past experiences, people nod off, feel sick or feel nothing at all.

My point here is that it's a ridiculously tricky drug to get right and even after over a year of dosing with the same people at the same dilution, there are still occasions where someone will overstep their ideal mark and feel the need to drift off. In every one of these cases however, we've felt it safe for them to do so, and let them sleep it off somewhere we can keep an eye on them.

Given that we have had no serious incidents, no hospitalisations, and that we want to avoid Ging out at all costs, I recommend doing what we do: write down mls/ times, try to dose everyone at the same time, wait 2 hours before re-dose, get one or two people to take responsibility for all, dilute 1:8, colour dark blue/purple, don't leave half-full glassware lying around, consult with at least one other person on your dose, and snack regularly (or suck iceblocks if your amphetamines won't let you eat).

And leave the G at home :)
 
I'm so glad that my thread has raised so many important issues. Many thanks must go to the BLS and the Moderators who have contributed so much into this thread. I am sure we have all learnt from a lot

YOU GUYS ROCK!!

Thanks!
 
I've only had 1.4b and can admit to taking it as new drug of choice on weekends. It wasnt to hard to work out a good dose of 3ml's, but it is so easy to mess up. I've passed out several times, but this was just as much falling asleep as passing out most of the time and there was nothing I or anyone with me was worried about.

There were 2 exceptions though. Once against my better judgement I had an extra ml to soon and felt a bit ill and passed out for half an hour. This wasnt to bad though.

The real killer(almost literally) was when i was somehow accidently given to much, maybe even up to three times more than I would normally have. Wasnt the strength of it, was just measured wrong which was careless but I'm not blaming the person who measured it. I noticed something was wrong soon as i tasted it, I almost spat it out it tasted so bad and gagged, but stupid me drank it anyway. Took about 15 minutes for me to completely pass out, apparently all my muscles were tensing up and then i started throwing up for about 3 hours. I woke up about 6 hours later feeling like death and couldnt really eat for the next 4 days.

Afterwards everyone agreed I should have gone to hospital on this occasion and if I ever see anyone going through a similar thing I wont hesitate. But just simply passing out isnt major cause for concern. If they start doing weird things in they're passed out state and looking ill its cause to start worrying, but if they just look like they are sleeping we've found its just best to let them sleep. Waking someone up out of this sleep tends to do more harm than good in my experience, usually making them sick(I started throwing up when they tried to wake and move me) though dont take my word for this.

A lot of the pass outs I've seen have happened when the person is tired anyway, hence not being much worry. Its easy to spot the person who's in trouble from it, usually through there behaviour prior to passing out and the speed with which they pass out after having the dose.

But the biggest lessons if you choose to take it are always be careful in the measuring and dont be tempted to have more too soon. Having that one extra ml might seem like a good idea, but there is literally a very fine line between pleasure and pain. I wont tell people to avoid it all together because its a good experience without all the come downs common with other drugs, and as long as you dont fool yourself into thinking you can handle to much, its a safe experience. Just be careful and show it some respect!

This is all anecdotal, make of it what you will, but if you choose to take G you will almost inevitably pass out at some stage and if you decide to keep taking it and getting medical attention in the form of an ambulance for example everytime a mild pass out happens, it could prove to be a very expensive habit. Learn to recognise the warning signs of a dangerous overdose, they're pretty hard to miss
 
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One other thing.... have a friend check the dose you have measured out for yourself to make sure you have got it right.....

last night i was to fucked to see the plunger..... im got my friend to have a look, it was more than double my proper and safe charge.....
DfI;)
 
^ This might be just my opinion, but if you are too fucked to measure an accurate dose of a drug then you have no business administering that dose to anyone, including yourself. If you're so wasted you can't see properly, do you really need to take more drugs?

BigTrancer :)
 
it was not g that was imparing my vision at that stage....... i was well aware of what i was doing i just couldnt see the plunger (also bear in mind that i had been awake since before new years) and it was in fact those other substances in my system that were imparing my ability to see the marks on the side of the needleless syrynge
 
i have never overdosed on g i am very safe with the drug but when that was happening a whole host of other stimulants were in my system thats y i couldnt see...... i know the dangers of ghb/1,4b
 
just embellishing my previous post...

buck_reeds comments nailed it perfectly earlier + jogged an issue that I failed to mention earlier....

For the purpose of my point, I'll refer to G + its analogues as 'volatile'.
Just thinking back to the many situations I've been in where myself as well as others have imbibed the 'juice', each individuals metabolism and weight (granted of course there was no poly drug use apparent) were a, if not the key issue. Also to a lesser extent and harder to gauge I guess is the persons constitution (or even predisposition) to these kind of substances.
Hmm an image of Keith Richards just popped into my head....but I digress....:)

On several occasions I've seen people drink between 7 + 10 ml (btw not my responsibility and I did stress to them the potential dangers) and it did absolutely nothing then only 5 minutes later others take 5ml or less and became dribbling goons. I've always tried to (without sounding hypocritical)
preach the idea of moderation in these circumstances, however some people just wont listen. BUT....as long as they're within the confines of my house.....my rules stand.....I deadlock the door and hide their car keys.

Sounds rather juvenile I know but it has to be done - as I've described to first timers it's akin to an extreme intoxication in the same ballpark as drinking alcohol (getting drunk but not pissed / bent but not stoned (???) however (in my case especially) I do maintain a degree of 'normalcy' (I can still hold a decent conversation, my overall behaviour doesnt change markedly ie no violence or large mood swings and have a more comfortable(albeit slightly skewed) control over my faculties. Still doesnt mean I would ever drive a car...if being pissed on alcohol whilst driving a car increases life threatening dangers exponentially .....then G IMHO is up there with it.

One occasion 2 years ago I guinea pigged myself on a newly aquired batch of a particularly viscous GBL and subsequently passed out with my head hitting the keyboard for a good 10 hours - upon waking up it took me 15 minutes or so to remember my name, where i was, what i was etc. Nasty!
Then shortly after (and after stashing it brilliantly) some dipshit 'aquaintance' (thankfully out of the picture now) decided to steal a litre and share it with his piss-head yobbo mates....copious alcohol + 1000ml GBL + 5 brains cells between 6 idiots = 3 OD's, 2 ambulances and a very inquisitive local constabulary.

Luckily for me I found out about this a week later - subsequently severed all ties with persons of that calibre and double plated my attitude towards the 'juice'. My philosophy towards it is that it is sacred and one (well myself) must respect it and, as its been mentioned many a time, stay sensible!

thangyoovurymurch
 
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Like many people i have watched as the g useage at events has risen to an extreme. my first raves i never heard or knew anything of enlighten or ravesafe because im pretty sure that they werent at the events i had attended, but now at most of the events i go to i see at least 2 people OD on g and get taken away to st johns.

i watched at a recent event a guy come to ravesafe feeling quite sick and dry reeching into a bowl until he layed back and passed out. they tried to wake him but were unable. called st johns, they came up and put him on a strecher after trying to wake him, he woke up when he was on the stretcher and tried to struggle against the st johns people because he didn't want to go with them, i think for fear he was going to be in trouble. he was obviously very out of it, had been unconcious but was still struggling, not wanting to go with them. i watched this whole scene in absolute awe, couln't believe that someone had taken drugs to the point of this....even though i have been exsposed to extreme levels of drug fuckedness, this scared me beyond belief....

although i have only used g a few times i get very very scared after this incident of using it knowing what a scary drug this is.....i used g properly for the first time a few weeks ago and had an absolute ball of a night on it, but when it rocked around to 5am i was fairly g'ed up but very tired, *i had worked all day and not much sleep the night before* my eyelids became very heavy and i was tired....i got really really scared that i had done too much g and quickly downed a red bull. now i realise that i was only tired from actual fatigue, because i did much below the correct dosage to ensure i was safe.....but this drug has scared me so much into thinking that i might OD! but i suppose thats a good thing because i will never ever misuse this drug.... but i see so many people who do not treat this drug with the respect it deserves and again people who think "g-ing out" is cool......i have no idea what we can do to combat this problem, but its like any other drug, people who are stupid use it wrongly and wind up in hospital.....
 
ahh, i hate this drug. not for the effects itself, but what it does to people or maybe i dont even hate the drug, maybe i hate most of the dickheads that use it.

one of my good mates G'd out hard on NYE (he g's out pretty often), i was pretty scared at the time, and the same goes for his gf, my gf and others. he ruined my peak, my gf's peak and he still has the fkn decency to say 'its my problem, not yours'. what a moron.
the next day a few of my other friends went to have a talk to him about his G problem, which he basically denied and blamed it all on 'bad maccas', then tried to explain to THEM that he didnt G out. what the.. he needs help
 
i have no idea what we can do to combat this problem

Education, pure and simple. It's our responsibility as people who know how to minimise the risks of this drug to provide non-judgemental advice and support to those who don't have the same level of knowledge.

although i have only used g a few times i get very very scared after this incident of using it knowing what a scary drug this is

Sorry to keep picking on you to quote kryalcastleE but you raised a few interesting points (and also, I witnessed the event you're talking about too so we can't have been far apart!).

It's not the drug that you should be scared of but the user. To the best of my knowledge the guy you saw didn't want to go to hospital because he was pretty sure he wouldn't be allowed back in later. This is not an effect of the drug, it's evidence that the guy had so little respect for his body, he was resisting much-needed hospitalisation so that he could stay and party. That's a personal choice - this guy chose to ignore the sound advice he received (and was taken away unwillingly in the end).

If on the other hand you take an informed approach, manage your doses and stick with SENSIBLE friends, G might be a lot of fun for you. In my opinion it's better not to be scared of drugs, because fear makes people make irrational decisions.
 
^^^^^

you raise very good points :)

i know i shouldn't be scared of the drug but the user, but its so hard not to fear something that could potentially have the ability to kill me....i am so careful with my doses, making sure everything (and i mean EVERYTHING) is exact and correct etc, but after seeing so many people g out its just so hard to imagine that so many people could have been so irresponsible and careless with their bodies...making me think that it was accidental in some cases...and that maybe i could make one fatal mistake if im not careful...im just trying to make it clear that because of others peoples misuse, it makes me (a careful user) doubt my own confidence with this drug...and that sucks.

but i def. agree that education of this drug needs to be more widely spread, but there are some people who just dont wanna hear because they are so 'invincible'
 
having passed out/fallen asleep a few times and 'G'd out twice (last time was 6 months ago and NEVER again) theres very different effects when you come out of it

I say fallen asleep because I was tired before I had the G, it just put me over the edge and it was actually a really nice sleep. I didnt go retarded or anything as you do when you have had to much, i just eventually drifted off to sleep and when you wake up you are completely clear headed and feel totally refreshed

waking up from having too much is hell though. Was in a total state of confusion, couldnt recognise my friends, could barely roll over to throw up.

Saying that I can understand why someone would struggle after coming out of it. If it fell into the first category he would just be annoyed that he's feeling fine and getting thrown out. I wouldnt say that hes in need of hospitalisation at this point. Having known someone who went to hospital after they had snapped out of it there is nothing that they were able to do at the hospital because at that stage theres essentially nothing wrong. It clears out of the system quickly, its not like alcohol and getting the stomach pumped for example.

On the other hand if he was in the second category he could have had a million reasons for struggling, doubt many of them would have made sense to anyone but himself though.
 
stz said:
well, not an OD really, as medical GHB is used for the purpose of passing out (sleeping aid - Xyrem)
Good point, I don't see why such a fuss has been made to paint passing out on GHB as irresponsible in this thread.
If I had some right now I'd probably knock myself out and have no reservations about having done so.
I'd love to see it prescribed as a sleep aid here, I'm a pretty terrible insomniac yet I'm reluctant to use benzodiazepines on anything resembling a regular basis given my and others past experiences with them.
G'ing out right about now would be superior in every way as far as I'm concerned.
 
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