Benzos Flubromazolam - Is It That Dangerous For Someone With Benzo Tolerance?

[muie]

I have a tolerance to benzodiazepines! I've been prescribed clonazepam 4mg/day since June, 2004 - Jan. 2016. From Jan. 2016 onward, I've been taking any benzodiazepine I could get my hands on usually resulting in a weekly mix of temazepam, clonazepam, nitrazepam and bromazepam. For the last few years I have been taking clonazepam that I get on the street as well as etizolam that I used to get from a reputable vendor who no longer stocks it. As of several months ago, I unexpectedly ended up with several powdered benzos after a friend swore off taking benzos and offered to sell me his stash of partially opened bags and one unopened bag. The flubromazolam bag was the only one he hadn't tried and was still unopened, so I would be going into it without any other experiences with the actual batch! Ever since I bought the bags of benzos off my friend a couple months ago, around October 2010, I've given all of them a try with good results. So far I've tried bromazolam (good), diclazepam (didn't like it), flualprazolam (good), etizolam (good) and clonazolam (good)! I want to point out that I've tried alprazolam, etizolam as well as midazolam (both oral & snorted) and am familiar with the -lams' "brick to the head effect" that you often get without a tolerance but with tolerance this effect goes away.

I've been reading quite a fair share of concerning reports of flubromazolam use, many reports say that this particular benzo is quite different compared to other more traditional benzos, some reports stating it produces an 'irreversible tolerance' that can never be brought down again (which is hard to believe) and some of the most concerning reports have claimed that it has been implicated in deaths and that even by itself it has resulted in fatal deaths (with as little as 3mg)! Many reports say that even tolerant people should start with 0.25mg - 0.5mg and then gradually increase it.

Is there any truth to the 'irreversible tolerance' phenomenon?

As a man of science and rationale, I would have to say no even though I've observed somewhat of an 'irreversible tolerance' after long binges of flualprazolam and then switching to alprazolam which had lost its effect at the dosages I used to take previous to the flualprazolam. I'm sure with enough time off, my tolerance will be back to new.

Does anybody know what makes the nature of flubromazolam more dangerous than other similarly potent compounds of the same chemical family? Does it's pharmacology & pharmacokinetics differ that much from that of other similar strong acting compounds like clonazolam and flualprazolam?

What do you think of the recommend dosages according to sources like TripSit where at least in my experience, their recommended dosages for both flualprazolam and cloanzolam are both greatly exaggerated! Or do the currently accepted charts indicate the recommended dosages for people with absolutely zero benzo tolerance? I say this because I know people, where if they've taken a 0.5mg alprazolam, it will consist of 1-2hrs of amnesia/missing time with no memory of what happened just 15min after taking their pill and it almost always ends up in sleep! On the other hand, other people I know with bigger tolerances to benzodiazepines will take 3mg - 4mg alprazolam and will be energized, outgoing, motivated, they report an anti depressant effect not present with other benzos, and a general sense of mood boosting and uplifting qualities, while other people with no tolerance would have been sleeping like a rock after any dose over 2mg alprazolam.

Are these charts written for people with absolutely zero benzo tolerance?

I've tried flualprazolam and clonazolam enough times by now and while I have seen the recommend dosages for flualprazolam (Common 0.25-0.5mg, Strong 0.5-1mg & Heavy 1-2mg) in my experience I have to say that these dosages don't match those from my personal experiences. From personal experiences I would say a common dose is 1mg - 2mg, a strong dose 2mg - 3mg and a heavy dose being 4mg - 5mg! Most sources claim flualprazolam to be 2-3x the strength of alprazolam with longer effects. While I can vouch for the longer effect, I honestly didn't find flualprazolam to be any stronger than regular alprazolam! If anything I would say that it's equivalent mg for mg, but with longer and more hypnotic effects! I am also 100% certain that my friend didn't cut the bach powder but gave it to me in the same condition that he received it in! I also wasn't able to achieve any effect with the recommend dosages of clonazolam (Light 75ug - 0.2mg, Common 0.2mg - 0.4mg & Heavy 0.5mg - 1mg), in my experience I found 0.5mg - 1mg to be a light dose, 1mg - 2mg to be a common dose and 2mg - 4mg to be a 'heavy' dose.

Do you believe the recommend dosages as shown on sources like TripSit are actually indicative of the actual dosages for oral flualprazolam and/or clonazolam or do you believe they are a bit exaggerated?

Could its pharmacology be more similar to barbiturates than to traditional benzodiazepines? What could be causing the fatalities?

In which way is flubromazolam more dangerous; is it more dangerous because it is stronger & longer lasting than other benzos or is it dangerous because it is toxic to the organs in as little as 3mg, resulting in life threatening results including death?

The highest dose I've taken of flualprazolam at once has been 7mg-8mg to come down off stimulants) and while the effects had my speech affected (slurred words), I didn't get any amnesia. The highest dose of clonazolam has been 4mg - 6mg clonazolam (with tolerance) and while I felt it quite strongly, which resulted in a very relaxed state but again no amnesia nor memory loss. At the time I took these relatively big doses of flualprazolam and clonazolam, my normal dose of alprazolam was 16mg - 30mg/day and a normal dose of bromazolam would have been between 5mg-6mg 2-3x a day so a total of 10mg - 18mg bromazolam a day, so I had a very high tolerance at the time. Is this indicative that my batches weren't the highest quality, or that the vendor they were bought from didn't have the highest purity product? Or does it mean that most of the relatively small number of flualprazolam and clonazolam charts available, indicating their recommend dosages haven't been studied well enough and might very well be off?

If you can handle relatively big doses of both flualprazolam and clonazolam without any problems or safety concerns, would flubromazolam behave any differently or any stronger than the former two? If you haven't had any concerning results with flualprazolam nor with clonazolam, does that mean you won't have any concerning results with flubromazolam either?

Is there a dosage threshold that if crossed, becomes toxic & life threatening effects become present?
I am, of course thinking of the fatal reports that report the dosage take was as little as 3mg. If you happen to have of any studies discussing toxicity, please post more regarding flubromazolam toxicity and/or let us know what body organs are affected (if you happen to know).

I appreciate answers to any of my questions and I welcome any constructive advice for someone with extensive benzo experience and significant benzo tolerance, looking to give flubromazolam a try for the first time.

Many thanks!

 

[negrogesic]

If you are able to take large doses of clonazolam and flualprazolam you can probably handle flubromazolam quite fine.

Apparently one of the tricky things about flubromazolam is the pharmacokinetics whereby blood levels peak a few hours into it, decline and then somehow go up again hours later. Also, not sure if its the result of unusual pharmacodynamics or just its extreme potency but it does seem to cause more respiratory depression than other benzos.

I have only smoked flubromazolam as I was afraid of its long duration. Its like lights out, extremely amnestic and hypnotic. Things got very hazy after smoking it yet i still felt it for perhaps 18 hours. The dose was probably a few milligrams (since its hard to smoke less than that), perhaps up to 5mg. I don't recommend attempting this as its essentially like injecting it.

 

[Tryptamite]

I imagine you could handle it fine. I think its more dangerous for the lucky folk with little to no tolerance. I myself have a benzo tolerance much like your own, if I don't have benzos I get very sick. I would say go ahead but thread carefully and be wary of redosing while under the influence.

 

[Xorkoth]

One thing to keep in mind is that it is one of the few benzos that has a distinct overdose risk (as in, medical problems can result). If you have "pac man syndrome" with benzos, I would avoid it, as it's easy to black out and it lasts a very long time. Even if you have a lot of tolerance. If not, then yeah you could probably handle it, with care.

 

[muie]

I was able to handle smoking phenazepam just fine, but I don't see the reason for smoking this one! With phenazepam, smoking it made sense as oral took about 2hrs - 3hrs, and smoking only took 10min for the effect to be felt to their maximum potential, therefore it was easier to titrate the dose to the amount you wanted where as with oral, by the time it would kick in, it would be either too much or too little and very often was it just enough. So that is what brought me to smoke phenazepam, which was done in a meth pipe (works wonders).

Negro, in your opinon is flualprazolam really as potent as the charts make it out to be, claiming it to produce effects at doses in the microgram range? The same goes for the dose that most charts recommend for clonazolam as well, by a look you would think its a super potent benzo but honestly, don't you think these charts are a bit exaggerated?

Negro, have you ever exceeded 3mg flubromazolam a day? (what do you expect would happen if you did? what makes flubromazolam more fatal than the others?)

Even though my benzo tolerance is very high, I still have a few reservations about this benzo. So much so that this is the first time that I am ever considering volumetric dosing, I mean I didn't even do volumentric when I was using butyr fentanyl and furanyl fentanyl.

 

[negrogesic]

These subtle pharmacokinetic nuances worry me...I'm experienced and well-versed with the pharmacology of most Rx BZD's and have a high tolerance - however, I don't know much about RC BZD's and am eyeing both Flubro and Flualp and the fucked up thing is that Clonazolam may be the "safest" choice because I've gotta do regular screens for work and they test for a surprising number of RC BZD's for a run-of-the-mill lab test, including:

1. Flualprazolam
2. Flubromazolam
3. Etizolam
4. As well as each respective metabolite of all the above.

Notice that Clam or its metabolites are not listed there...I'd rather avoid Clam - it sounds like Halcion and Xanax both took steroids and had an orgy with Clonazepam/Nitrazepam - that beast is bigger than me lol, I wouldn't be able to go toe to toe with it. Would a week be enough time for elimination of Flubro or Flualp for an LC/MS test? I have flexibility as to when I can do the screens but they've gotta be done regularly.

Kinda an RC newb and really wanna try Flualp and Flubro, but not if their half-lives could fuck with my job. If Flualprazolam and Flubromazolam's half lives are too long, I was thinking of DAFL but had a harder time finding it. I'm Rx'd Flurazepam and I've been taken it daily for years..would the smartest thing be to find some quality Norflurazepam/Desalkylflurazepam (DAFL) and give em' a little boost now and then for rec/kicks, since that'll show up anyways?Dalmane gets a lot of hate, and my theory is that it's because of the pharmacokinetics; Within 30-60minutes Flurazepam reaches peak plasma levels and is metabolized into the compounds that are responsible for it's effects and ridiculously long half-life. But time is required: day 1 on Flurazepam feels a lot different than day 7 because the main metabolite - Desalkylflurazepam - that shit feels really nice when it starts to build up.

I think ppl hate on Flurazepam because it's pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics are so different than what they're used to - it's the opposite of a Bar. The linked Apo Monograph and mentions how the DAFL buildup ends up being something like 7x higher a few days after nightly administration of a standard 30mg dose. And - DAFL has significantly greater BZD receptor affinity than the other metabolites. I've seen a chart with Ki values for alpha1 subunit of Triazolam, Flurazepam, Flunitrazepam, and DAFL - and fuck I can't find it rn, but DAFL was one of the lowest Ki values/highest affinities.

TL;DR - If anyone has experience with DAFL, please PM me, I'd love to hear about the purity of the batch

This turned into a bit of a rant, a PSA for Dalmane, and a request for advice about RC half-lives (Flubro & Flualp), their metabolites' half-lives, and employment screening. If anyone has experience with DAFL, please PM me, I'd love to hear about the purity of the batch - or if anyone has experience with piss tests and RC's - which metabolites to watch out for with LC/GS tests, any advice would be appreciated.

These benzos are not worth getting fired over so i wouldn't test it.

I've only ever smoked flubromazolam and it still lasted forever. That might make it linger for less time in the system but i can't recommend smoking a benzo that has 100x the potency of diazepam (its akin to the fentanyl of benzos). Can't say it feels great unless you like the feeling of a benzo lobotomy. Absolutely not worth losing your job (though if you take enough flubromazolam you wont remember losing it).

 

[negrogesic]

That analogy - ("it's akin to the fentanyl of benzos") - helped me see the Truth here, for me, particularly with regard to the saying: one is too many and a thousand is never enough. I didn't realize the scope of the potency differences with these RC's. Hell, no amount of Rx Benzo ever feels like enough for long enough a time (and of course, one doesn't remember the times when it was "enough").

Thank you dear friend from the internet - I hadn't realized just how much fire a part of me was thinking of playing with.

well I'm glad the message came through to you, flubromazolam is a disaster. And that anology is not hyperbole, flubromazolam truly is the fentanyl of benzos. Fentanyl's strength is measured relative to morphine at a ratio of around 100x. Benzos are measured in relation to diazepam, and flubromazolam is 100x more potent than diazepam. Thus, fentanyl is to morphine as flubromazolam is to diazepam. Or it may be more like 80x, but in any event it is very strong. In fact i think its the most potent known to mankind, although flunitrazalom is probably 100x.

I bought some powder flubromazolam and was too afraid to take it orally because, not only is it extremely potent, it lasts forever. I smoked a few milligrams and felt it strongly for 18-20 hours. Very strong, intense amnesia. It is not a functional benzo, you become a human train wreck. That said i was smoking milligrams of one of the worlds most potent benzos and i rarely take benzos these days so i don't have tolerance. Yet even at a reasonable dose i cant imagine it being useful in a medicinal setting given the extended hypnotic effect and more importantly the unusually dangerous dose response curve. Flubromazolam overdoses are harder to treat than other benzo overdoses. Also has some funky pharmacokinetics where blood levels rise and fall, then rise again hours later make it unpredictable

In anycase the second time i found myself smoking it, in a moment of flubromazolam clarity i told my girlfriend, "take this bag of powder and hide it from me"

Note that i didn't tell her to throw it away In fact i do ask her every once in a while "do you still know where that bag i told you hide is?", but have so far been smart enough to not ask her for it back. She wouldn't say no, though id probably trick her with some lie, "yeah you know i think we should put it in the refrigerator because its going to be ruined and even more dangerous if its not refrigerated". I have no interest in it, might come in handy as a medicine during some future world war in the year 2047 as it can substitute for diazepam and a gram usually 80g of diazepam.

Please no one smoke flubromazolam it is not safe, I was essentially trying to decrease the duration by smoking it (rather than take it orally). Problem is i smoked too much and it wound up lasting just as long due to the elevated blood levels.

 

[kushblowin]

how long until everything safe gets banned and every benzo is pressed with this?

also please be careful recommending dosages to people. the first time i tried xanax i blacked out hard for 12 hours off 1mg

 

[muie]

I want to bring to the forefront a few good points that were made by fellow bluelighters and they're concerns mirror mine spot on! What I am afraid of is permanent changes, both physiologic and psychological! I've read experiences where it was also responsible for inducing long lasting tolerance to any other benzodiazepines one would use afterwards, and in some case they claim this change was permanent!

Other things that worry me about this substance is the 'overdose risk' - which I don't understand since all this drug is just a very strong benzodiazepine, in which case dose ranges of 3mg or 4mg (dose ranges that are know to cause overdoses).

My point is that a very strong benzodiazepine will not under any shape or form cause *death*! If anything, this suggests this particular substance is inherently toxic!

Correct me if I'm wrong!! When taking a strong benzodiazepine in excessive doses (ex: Flualp, Midazolam, Phenazepam....all the prescription benzodiazepines that you can think of also), no matter how high the dose of strong benzodiazepines a person decides to take is, say 10mg - 20mg Flualp orally, or 30mg - 40mg Midazolam orally, or 10mg - 20mg phenazepam orally, or even say 10mg - 20mg lorazepam orally, etc. The worst case scenario that will come your way (if you don't drive, or go shopping....if you do the right thing & stay inside) is complete loss of memory - in other words amnesia for a long time (24hrs+), loss of motor skills (physical - stumbling as well as mental skills- slurred speech), and then the inevitable passing out occurs which in these cases, with those dosages, would put the person out for over 24hrs+ easily!

Also the dose curve response is said to be an indicator of low therapeutic index, meaning that a recreational dose may be 2mg - 3mg while an overdose may be as little as 1mg+ or 2mg+ and this cannot be due to it's potency! High potency benzodiazepines do not kill anyone unless they have other sedatives in their system, but this compound has had a few fatalities too many (for a benzodiazepine....come on guys, let's figure this out in the interest of harm reduction!)

Some points that were brought up by my fellow bluelight brothers, which merit a bit more light shed on these very important pharmacologic effects which are quite different from any other benzodiazepine of equal strength. Therefore, from my experience with benzodiazepine pharmacology & pharma-kinetics and the observations I've noted from this particular benzodiazepine, as well from the statements below, has led me to believe that this compound may be inherently toxic.

- "If you think of drug strength / equivalent or standardized dosage as the y-axis on a plot and duration as the x-axis the area under the line up until about 2 half-lives is the "disrupt homeostasis zone" - in this zone your body will be up / down regulating neurons and altering biological processes to try to achieve homeostasis- aka developing an addiction to said drug. The stronger the drug and the longer the duration the larger this "zone" is."

- "In a homeostatic attempt to deal with the presence of benzodiazepines the body down-regulates a great number of these associated receptors and they sort of unfold/reabsorb. Then when they are eventually called back after benzodiazepines are no longer present they are expressed differently genetically and are less efficient at enhancing GABA. These changes in gene expressions can be permanent."

- "One thing to keep in mind is that it is one of the few benzos that has a distinct overdose risk (as in, medical problems can result). If you have "pac man syndrome" with benzos, I would avoid it, as it's easy to black out and it lasts a very long time."

Many thanks!

 

[Joey]

Just want to throw out there that I think that some of tolerance is not just pure physical
Tolerance but perceived as well. If I hadn’t had many, many experiences with psychs and disassociatives I wouldn’t have been able to just casually continue a phone call while my vision went kaleidoscopic fractal level as I broke through DMT the first time in a big way. Doesn’t mean I was any less screwed up though.

 

[Freyed]

Old thread I know but just wanted to add my tuppence. I took a fuck load of f-lam with f-pam. C-lam and Nifoxipam over the course of three months years ago.

It was exhausting keeping it up. Flushed them all. Went cold turkey. No sleep for 5 days. On the 6th day my mind pretty much unravelled.

I cried for hours. That night I slept like a baby and was right as rain the next day. Mentally fine and no muscle twitches etc

I was naive at that time and didnt know you got withdrawals!!! Haha

I was lucky I guess but but my tolerance is permantly fucked specifically to prescribed benzos.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Just want to throw out there that I think that some of tolerance is not just pure physical. Tolerance but perceived as well.

As someone with more than a few university psychology classes under my belt I can confirm & add; the body is constantly seeking homeostatic equilibrium (homeostasis) and this process is driven by information AND perception - cues that indicate Y or Z, for for example: ie the body/mind anticipating the drug in a certain room, or the excitement felt before/during/after a certain ritual and the meaning we make out if it, consciously or unconsciously).

In Drugs and Behavior we learned that more than a few opiate users die (may they rest in peace) in a way that exemplifies this well: the same amount of Heroin that User A took whilst in his/her room with User B can kill User A if user A were to use it in User B's home (to which, for the sake of this example, User A is both unaccustomed to inexperienced in [meaning: User A hasn't used H there before]) simply because the body/mind didn't have sufficient cues to sufficiently counteract the anticipated dose of Heroin - the same amount he/she usually takes from the same batch. Whether User A Lives or Dies can come down to a fraction of, a fkn fraction of cue-related physiological/psychological adaptations (tolerance).

The easiest way to by imaging a graph of physiological arousal (high - panic/anxiety/fast respiration rate; low - sedation/depression/low respiration rate). If we're expecting a sedative, at some point in time our body ups the arousal in anticipation due to the phenomenon of homeostatic equilibrium and the body's brilliantly adaptive way of trying to regulate itself). A part of the reduced effect that we experience (tolerance) is due to that slight increase in anxiety that our body induces in order to counteract the anticipated sedative.

I mean, the placebo effect is another hugely fascinating area that's relevant here too but I've typed enough already. All I'll say is that roughly 50% of any given drugs' effect can actually be accounted for by the biopsychosocial experience of taking a pill, for instance. None of the above is conjecture, it's just some of the esoteric, but scientifically validated findings, nuances, and explanations for the inexorable phenomena of tolerance and the body's drive for homeostasis/homeostatic equilibrium.

TL;DR - tolerance is inexorably linked to homeostasis, which is mediated by perception and a significant amount of what we experience as tolerance has to do with environment cues and our interpretation of such cues (read: the mind)


Stay Safe,
SB.

 

[headfuck123]

Leave this one alone. I was a benzo fiend and enjoyed them all but not this one... thought id love it so ordered a couple hundred blotters, only to literally chuck them into a fire afte trying half a blotter. Was like zero to unconscious with extreme amnesia, this one is dangerous af!

 

[Jabberwocky]

These benzos are not worth getting fired over so i wouldn't test it.

I've only ever smoked flubromazolam and it still lasted forever. That might make it linger for less time in the system but i can't recommend smoking a benzo that has 100x the potency of diazepam (its akin to the fentanyl of benzos). Can't say it feels great unless you like the feeling of a benzo lobotomy. Absolutely not worth losing your job (though if you take enough flubromazolam you wont remember losing it).

Negrogesic, I humbly ask your guidance on what to do having just learned that the U94's I found in my futon & compared with U94's straight from the pharmacy (Fake vs Real 2mg U94 Xanax) contained Flubromazolam. I haven't heard from my clinic yet and am considering calling and confessing. The only problem is that once I took those photos and realized they were presses (surmising they must've been sitting in that futon for the past year after some heavy partying around that time), I took a couple more (last dose estimate: Monday, ~3-4 days ago) and am expected to do another screen in 2 days. I just found out today about the screen results. I don't want to lose the trust of my doctors but I also don't want to lose my BZD script.

What do you recommend doing?

Thank you,
SB

 

[negrogesic]

Negrogesic, I humbly ask your guidance on what to do having just learned that the U94's I found in my futon & compared with U94's straight from the pharmacy (Fake vs Real 2mg U94 Xanax) contained Flubromazolam. I haven't heard from my clinic yet and am considering calling and confessing. The only problem is that once I took those photos and realized they were presses (surmising they must've been sitting in that futon for the past year after some heavy partying around that time), I took a couple more (last dose estimate: Monday, ~3-4 days ago) and am expected to do another screen in 2 days. I just found out today about the screen results. I don't want to lose the trust of my doctors but I also don't want to lose my BZD script.

What do you recommend doing?

Thank you,
SB

Not sure if I fully understand the question here?

Are you saying you tested positive for flubromazolam or are you concerned you are going to test positive?

 

[Jabberwocky]

Not sure if I fully understand the question here?

Are you saying you tested positive for flubromazolam or are you concerned you are going to test positive?

I tested positive. Don't want to reveal to much personal info here, will message you.