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Fasting to cure HPPD

brickhouse50

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Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
129
Fasting to cure HPPD (and neurotoxicity in general)

Hello folks.

I've been suffering from mild HPPD for a few years now (snow, perceptual distortions, "sometimes feels like I'm starting to trip"). I've been fasting intermittently lately to attack other problems (mental fog and stress mainly). But as a side effect, I also noticed that it makes the HPPD symptoms disappear, in as little as a few days.

One thing I've noticed that really makes the symptoms go away fast is fasting (as in, caloric restriction of food). In fact, fasting is even purported to cure schizophrenics
> Controlled Fasting Treatment for Schizophrenia<

Fasting is known to be incredibly effective for improving the brain:

>Short-term fasting induces profound neuronal autophagy<

>Why Fast? Part Four – Brain Health<

Fasting may even help restore the brain from other forms of drug abuse.

Give it a shot and let me know what you guys think.
 
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Foreigner

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You're assuming that HPPD exists, and that it's brain damage instead of brain augmentation.

I get the logical connection you're trying to make between this and fasting but if you're having permanent after-effects of LSD, why not just live with it and re-frame it to be something magical?
 

p-helix

Bluelighter
Joined
Jul 25, 2010
Messages
181
Hello folks.

I've been suffering from mild HPPD for a few years now (snow, perceptual distortions, "sometimes feels like I'm starting to trip"). I've been fasting intermittently lately to attack other problems (mental fog and stress mainly). But as a side effect, I also noticed that it makes the HPPD symptoms disappear, in as little as a few days.

One thing I've noticed that really makes the symptoms go away fast is fasting (as in, caloric restriction of food). In fact, fasting is even purported to cure schizophrenics
> Controlled Fasting Treatment for Schizophrenia<

Fasting is known to be incredibly effective for improving the brain:

>Short-term fasting induces profound neuronal autophagy<

>Why Fast? Part Four – Brain Health<

Fasting may even help restore the brain from other forms of drug abuse.

Give it a shot and let me know what you guys think.
I have not been 24 hours without food except for drug-induced reasons a long time ago, but I look forward to trying this in the future. It is interesting to consider how fasting has been part of religion for thousands of years as well as a longtime aspect of human history for more earthly reasons of survival. On the evidence, there seem to be real benefits to occasional short-term fasts.
 

brickhouse50

Bluelighter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
129
You're assuming that HPPD exists, and that it's brain damage instead of brain augmentation.

I get the logical connection you're trying to make between this and fasting but if you're having permanent after-effects of LSD, why not just live with it and re-frame it to be something magical?
Foreigner, you're not SUPPOSED to feel like you're tripping when you're not on drugs. The altered state of tripping is *most likely* not conductive to survival and helping people get through life. If you really think that you can live a safer and more successful life while being under a permanent mushroom or LSD trip rather than being sober, then re-evaluate your beliefs. And the reason that most people are more likely better off getting through life sober rather than by tripping is the same reason that HPPD is *probably a BAD THING.* If I had to take a guess, your brain/you/your neuronal pathways have "learned" the perceptions/pathways of "tripping", and that gets reactivated by method of MEMORY, resulting in HPPD symptoms. If I had HPPD, I would well want to GET RID OF IT, rather than accepting it as "something magical" and thus continuing to retard myself in subtle but insidious ways in life (most likely in the form of bad decision making, poorer learning & understanding, and emotional coping skills).

"Perma-trip" is NOT something to be proud of. It is a DYSFUNCTION, and please don't tell people it's anything other than that!
 

Maya

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Joined
Feb 17, 2013
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^Brickhouse what Foreigner meant is to adapt to the permanent after effects of the LSD, he never said it is something to be proud of. I understand that you are doing what you can to feel as normal as possible but there are instances where some of the damages are long term. It is quite annoying and frustrating but seeing it as something negative is not going to help. Why don't just accept it for now while you are finding ways to resolve it? :)
 

Foreigner

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Foreigner, you're not SUPPOSED to feel like you're tripping when you're not on drugs. The altered state of tripping is *most likely* not conductive to survival and helping people get through life. If you really think that you can live a safer and more successful life while being under a permanent mushroom or LSD trip rather than being sober, then re-evaluate your beliefs. And the reason that most people are more likely better off getting through life sober rather than by tripping is the same reason that HPPD is *probably a BAD THING.* If I had to take a guess, your brain/you/your neuronal pathways have "learned" the perceptions/pathways of "tripping", and that gets reactivated by method of MEMORY, resulting in HPPD symptoms. If I had HPPD, I would well want to GET RID OF IT, rather than accepting it as "something magical" and thus continuing to retard myself in subtle but insidious ways in life (most likely in the form of bad decision making, poorer learning & understanding, and emotional coping skills).

"Perma-trip" is NOT something to be proud of. It is a DYSFUNCTION, and please don't tell people it's anything other than that!
I'm just trying to be practical. If you really do have HPPD and there's no cure, then all you can do is re-frame your perspective on it. If you want to keep resisting it, then you'll suffer. On the other hand if you find a way to make it a positive experience then you can maybe move on and just live your life.

The fasting method is interesting. I hope it works for you, I really do.
 

dpd_mnk92

Bluelighter
Joined
Jun 5, 2012
Messages
181
very interesting. think i may give this a try myself. how many hours a day do you fast? are you following a particular routine/ regimen/ guide? cheers!

more evidence of IF's efficacy in improving cognition: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12558961.

" DR can stimulate the production of new neurons from stem cells (neurogenesis) and can enhance synaptic plasticity, which may increase the ability of the brain to resist aging and restore function following injury. Interestingly, increasing the time interval between meals can have beneficial effects on the brain and overall health of mice that are independent of cumulative calorie intake. The beneficial effects of DR, particularly those of intermittent fasting, appear to be the result of a cellular stress response that stimulates the production of proteins that enhance neuronal plasticity and resistance to oxidative and metabolic insults; they include neurotrophic factors such as brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), protein chaperones such as heat-shock proteins, and mitochondrial uncoupling proteins"

There appears to by a dearth of available scientific info on the subject as a result of the fact that fasting is not a very marketable concept (buying less food, buying less supplements). The limited information on the subject, from what I've researched in the past couple of days, does, however, seem to dispel a lot of nutrition-related dogmas and looks extremely promising.

i am currently 2 days into the "leangains" method of intermittent fasting - a method primarily used for fitness purposes, but which, in principle, works the same way as alternative fasting protocols in terms of improving health/ brain function.

This method involves fasting every day for 16 hours (essentially by extending the 12 or so hour fast everyone goes on between dinner and breakfast) and getting all your calories in during the remaining 8 hour window. The first thing i noticed from IF is much improved energy and focus, even during those first few hours of conscious fasting in the morning. This gives me plenty of hope and gives me early confirmation of the fact that I am personally capable of maintaining this diet on a medium/ long term basis.

I will stick with this diet for a minimum of 2-3 months as a sort of personal experiment. Hopefully it will have some sort of effect on some of the symptoms I have suffered from a period of AMT and MDMA abuse including, but not limited to: cognitive decline, HPPD (affects me to the point that reading can be difficult), debilitating anxiety, sexual dysfunction. It has been 7.5 months since a binge triggered the bulk of my issues, and progress has stalled over the past couple of months, so I feel I SHOULD be able to detect improvements and, at least partially, be able to attribute them to IF and not any sort of placebo effect. I will report back on this thread in case anyone is interested in the potential benefits of IF for those who are feeling a little fried/ foggy.

OP - would appreciate it if you could also give us an update every now and then. who knows, maybe you've stumbled an HPPD antidote. Fingers crossed!

dpd
 
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brickhouse50

Bluelighter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
129
very interesting. think i may give this a try myself. how many hours a day do you fast? are you following a particular routine/ regimen/ guide? cheers!

more evidence of IF's efficacy in improving cognition: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12558961.

" DR can stimulate the production of new neurons from stem cells (neurogenesis) and can enhance synaptic plasticity, which may increase the ability of the brain to resist aging and restore function following injury. Interestingly, increasing the time interval between meals can have beneficial effects on the brain and overall health of mice that are independent of cumulative calorie intake. The beneficial effects of DR, particularly those of intermittent fasting, appear to be the result of a cellular stress response that stimulates the production of proteins that enhance neuronal plasticity and resistance to oxidative and metabolic insults; they include neurotrophic factors such as brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), protein chaperones such as heat-shock proteins, and mitochondrial uncoupling proteins"

There appears to by a dearth of available scientific info on the subject as a result of the fact that fasting is not a very marketable concept (buying less food, buying less supplements). The limited information on the subject, from what I've researched in the past couple of days, does, however, seem to dispel a lot of nutrition-related dogmas and looks extremely promising.

i am currently 2 days into the "leangains" method of intermittent fasting - a method primarily used for fitness purposes, but which, in principle, works the same way as alternative fasting protocols in terms of improving health/ brain function.

This method involves fasting every day for 16 hours (essentially by extending the 12 or so hour fast everyone goes on between dinner and breakfast) and getting all your calories in during the remaining 8 hour window. The first thing i noticed from IF is much improved energy and focus, even during those first few hours of conscious fasting in the morning. This gives me plenty of hope and gives me early confirmation of the fact that I am personally capable of maintaining this diet on a medium/ long term basis.

I will stick with this diet for a minimum of 2-3 months as a sort of personal experiment. Hopefully it will have some sort of effect on some of the symptoms I have suffered from a period of AMT and MDMA abuse including, but not limited to: cognitive decline, HPPD (affects me to the point that reading can be difficult), debilitating anxiety, sexual dysfunction. It has been 7.5 months since a binge triggered the bulk of my issues, and progress has stalled over the past couple of months, so I feel I SHOULD be able to detect improvements and, at least partially, be able to attribute them to IF and not any sort of placebo effect. I will report back on this thread in case anyone is interested in the potential benefits of IF for those who are feeling a little fried/ foggy.

OP - would appreciate it if you could also give us an update every now and then. who knows, maybe you've stumbled an HPPD antidote. Fingers crossed!

dpd
I did an 11 day water fast, and I have not had any symptoms of HPPD since, and actually totally forgot about being bothered by it earlier :p

I think overeating wrecks your brain simply because it causes dopamine to be released, and your current neuronal state (of which if you have HPPD, has some kinks) to be reinforced. When you stop eating, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, your brain starts falling back to more previous, earlier versions of neuronal states and networks (healthier ones BEFORE YOU HAD HPPD), in an attempt to "remember" where food was/could have been (and that's why your dreams become so vivid... your brain is deconstructing the less beneficial "HPPD-tainted" neuronal connections and reactivating/reinforcing your older HPPD-less connections. I support my theory by presenting the following article (and all others on fasting seem to be similar): http://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/feb/18/fasting-protect-brain-diseases-scientists

"When resources became scarce, our ancestors would have had to scrounge for food," said Mattson. "Those whose brains responded best – who remembered where promising sources could be found or recalled how to avoid predators — would have been the ones who got the food. Thus a mechanism linking periods of starvation to neural growth would have evolved."

"The cells of the brain are put under mild stress that is analogous to the effects of exercise on muscle cells," said Mattson. "The overall effect is beneficial."
 

fly-

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Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
412
Location
Amsterdam
12 days water fast? That doesn't sound at all healthy, and recommended by any means.
 

Foreigner

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Mar 18, 2009
Messages
6,420
Location
The Cosmos
brickhouse50, if that theory is true, then it means starvation causes neural antagonism somehow. That seems counter-intuitive to me because stress usually causes the opposite to happen. Look at PTSD patients... their trauma causes down-regulation, and destruction of synapses.

The conclusion of the article is problematic:

The Guardian said:
If this final link can be established, Mattson said that a person could optimise his or her brain function by subjecting themselves to bouts of "intermittent energy restriction". In other words, they could cut their food intake to a bare minimum for two days a week, while indulging for the other five. "We have found that from a psychological point of view that works quite well. You can put up with having hardly any food for a day if you know that for the next five you can eat what you want."
They're only looking at BRAIN effect, not total body effect. Calorie restriction and starvation causes rapid weight gain when you do eat. People who eat little during the week and then binge on the weekend tend to be the most obese, so doing 2 days off and 5 days on would likely cause metabolism issues.

It's been known for a long time that higher calorie diets reduce lifespans. Without the body's energy going into the digestive system, a lot more is available to repair the body, including the brain. That's what fasting traditionally does.

I'm more inclined to think that the brain just has fewer opportunity costs when the body isn't dealing with food, so it becomes more efficient at self-repair (for a time). If HPPD is dysfunction, then fasting provides an opportunity to fix it. But obviously long term starvation causes people to degenerate, that's why I'm skeptical this should be done regularly.

How did you even do a water fast for 11 days? Are you saying you only drank water that entire time? How are you even alive?
 

brickhouse50

Bluelighter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
129
brickhouse50, if that theory is true, then it means starvation causes neural antagonism somehow. That seems counter-intuitive to me because stress usually causes the opposite to happen. Look at PTSD patients... their trauma causes down-regulation, and destruction of synapses.

The conclusion of the article is problematic:



They're only looking at BRAIN effect, not total body effect. Calorie restriction and starvation causes rapid weight gain when you do eat. People who eat little during the week and then binge on the weekend tend to be the most obese, so doing 2 days off and 5 days on would likely cause metabolism issues.

It's been known for a long time that higher calorie diets reduce lifespans. Without the body's energy going into the digestive system, a lot more is available to repair the body, including the brain. That's what fasting traditionally does.

I'm more inclined to think that the brain just has fewer opportunity costs when the body isn't dealing with food, so it becomes more efficient at self-repair (for a time). If HPPD is dysfunction, then fasting provides an opportunity to fix it. But obviously long term starvation causes people to degenerate, that's why I'm skeptical this should be done regularly.

How did you even do a water fast for 11 days? Are you saying you only drank water that entire time? How are you even alive?
Foreigner, you won't DIE if you don't eat for 11 days if you are a normally relatively healthy person. In prehistoric times, what do you think would happen to people if they did not eat for 11 days? DIE? Hate to break it to ya: "Most doctors agree that a healthy person can go up to eight weeks without food as long as they have water." ( http://askville.amazon.com/long-human-body-food/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=74441771 )

Now if you didn't drink WATER for 11 days, THAT would be a different story!

Also, I did not advocate long term starvation, or to fast regularly. As a once-in-a-while procedure (I have a friend who does an 11-day water fast once every year, and I'm determined to do the same), it's simply magical in healing and benefits compared to drawbacks (a bearable amount of physical fatigue during the process). As for stress... while you're doing this process, your brain basically hits the "reboot" button on itself and induces a lot of healing and fixing and purging of psychological issues and stresses. Mental clarity shoots through the roof, you start to "figure things out" in life, and your stress levels go down as a result, making you less likely to over-eat to combat stress afterwards.
 

Foreigner

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Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
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The Cosmos
^ I guess I can only speak for myself, but a fast of this nature would ruin me.

Do what's best for you.
 

thikal

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 26, 2011
Messages
185
^ I guess I can only speak for myself, but a fast of this nature would ruin me.

Do what's best for you.
Try it before conclude^^

I've been searching something to help me deal with anxiety and craving, I've done a vipassana retreat but the most usefull for craving was a 5 day fast. I don't have the scientific explanation of this, but it's really something to think about! :)
 
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