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FAQ for Aus Drug Discussion

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johnboy

Enlighten
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WARNING: THIS FAQ HAS NOT BEEN UPDATED IN A VERY LONG TIME. Some URLs are broken, but the text information in the thread remains intact.

THE SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION CONTAINED BELOW IS STILL HIGHLY RELEVANT AND SHOULD BE READ BY ALL BLUELIGHTERS, WHETHER THEY BE NEWCOMERS OR OLD TIMERS WHO NEED TO REFRESH THEIR MEMORIES.

Unfortunately a lot of the non-scientific Bluelight information is out of date and may seem confusing. However, the GUIDELINES for our forum have been in place for a long time now, and most Bluelight protocol issues and general Australia/Asia/NZ Drug Discussion issues are covered there. (There is also a mini-FAQ within the Guidelines for your information.)

NOT PROPERLY UPDATED SINCE July 15th 2000


This is the Official Australia Discussion FAQ!!! This is not the board or forum FAQs, becuase even though they are right up top, in plain sight, no one seems to ever read them. This thread was created in the hope that it would be read by new members who jumped straight into the board without reading the 'official' FAQs.

This thread is now an ANNOUNCEMENT, no longer jumping up and down the forum list like an excited labrador...

Its purpose is to inform new members of the Australia/Asia/NZ Drug Discussion Forum of the basics as well as re-posting some of the more pertinent information in one place. It also gives updates to those of you who have been here a while.

This thread used to be updated regularly but has been locked as an information repository for a couple of years. With the March 2003 upgrade to VBulletin, we now have stickythreads, so this will remain at the top of the Australia/Asia/NZ Drug Discussion Forum list, for easy reference.

This thread also has some of the best information we have on Ecstacy, so please read it in full before asking any other questions in the forum. Also if you have any knowledge to add, or even if you disagree with something written here, feel free to email me - [email protected] - to discuss having your contribution posted in this thread.

In case you were wondering, "*bump*" is just someones way of making a thread bounce back up to the top of the board without adding anything else to it. Feel free to bump threads anytime you want. I will prune out bumps in long-running threads to keep this from becoming too unwieldy.

On with the thread...

Mar 20th 2003
Edited to fix formatting, some small changes to wording in the preamble. Made sticky. BT

Feb 24th 2003
Alphaline Information appended. BT

June 23rd 2000
added Trancendance's version of the "Perfect pre/post load".
originally posted here

JUNE 15th 2000
I have re-posted, in its entirety, liquidocean's betaFAQ. scroll down to see it in all its glory.

This is a must read, even in its imcomplete state.
We need help filling in the blanks so if anyone has any suggestions or corrections please make them here

MAY 26th 2000
Please make sure you have all read deep's revised thoughts on pre/post-loading. Scroll down to the bottom.

MAY 1st 2000

Finally we here in Oz/Asia land have our own meetups section. This is where all meetup info, rave details, party reports, paintball, roll call, icq list, anything at all social or to do with rave culture will go. What will remain in Oz/Asia Discussion is pill reports, pill info requests, links to media and articles, anything to do with drugs and drug culture.

I will be moving threads across from today, so if a thread disapears from here it will no doubt be at meetups.
Anjele is head moderator of meetups so what she says over there goes. My 0.02c is just that i will strictly enforce the "no social stuff" rule here in discussions.

Many people interested in MDMA and associated drugs have little or no interest in rave culture. Much of the discontent that has been happening here lately has been about people fed up of having to wade thru endless mulitple meetup threads and stories of "what i did on my e at such and such party".
As of now all of these threads belong in Social/Meetups only. NO Venue details, party names, or promoter names are permitted in Drug Discussion. BT

If anyone has any questions on what will or won't be in Oz/Asia discussion feel free to ask. Questions about Meetups should be made to moderators of that forum.

Happy posting everyone, lets make Bluelight what we all know it could and should be

how about you all use all that passion and energy some of you seem to have lately, to do some research and post something here. less flames more info...

April 18th 2000
Now added to the bottom of this thread is a new thing i call "Definitive Threads".

Its a collection of links to posts that have covered a given topic. Feel free to search a topic yourself, in fact i encourage it, but i feel that these posts cover all the bases and should answer most questions.
The first collection is of posts to do with 5-htp in australia. Look out for how many times pinger (the now called 5htp nazi) repeats the same info, you have far more patience than i ever could, gold star for you ping
...

The second collection is about e-z test in australia.
If you have any suggestions for these collections, or any others just add on to this thread... i may combine posts to keep this thread uncluttered but i will credit all suggestions.

April 5th 2000
Bluelight is saved once again! Our wonderful anonymous donor has agreed to pay any charges incurred by the huge traffic... but this does not mean we can become complacent. Please keep up the great standard in this forum. On with the rest of this thread...

April 3rd 2000
Bluelight is once again having bandwidth problems due to misuse of the site. by misuse i mean the posting of off topic threads about everything but drug discussion. For those of you who have recently joined the bluelight community here is a bit of history.

The New Bluelight was setup in June 1999 by Jase and skydancer, as an extension and improvement of the discussion forum of the MDMA Clearinghouse. Since that time it has grown from a single forum with 2 moderators and a handful of members to the Bluelight you see today, with 12 seperate forums, 21 mods and at last count over 5000 registered members.

It has always been a non-profit site and the day to day expenses and maintenance have been taken care of by Jase an skydancer alone. By December 1999 the site traffic was such that Bluelight could no longer be hosted on its original cheap server. This was because of the amount of "hits" the site was receiving. Every time a page is loaded, or reloaded to check for new posts, a cgi request os sent to server for processing. Every month Bluelight now recieves around 50 gigabytes of requests.

The problem has nothing to do with the size of the hard drives storing Bluelights files, or the speed of the equipment processing those requests. The problem is the huge amount of data being pushed thru the internet connection.

The original server hosts began to freak at the amount of traffic Bluelight was generating, so jase and skydancer were going to be charged immense out of money to keep the site. So during December/January 99/00 the site underwent a series of moves and time offline. A number of servers were tried, but even the ones that promised "unlimited" bandwidth had small print defining unlimited as alot but not as much as we need.
A call for donations was made in early January. Heaps of people said they would donate money. In truth only about 41 people out of 5000 users actually did (oh btw i was one of em
)
That might've been the end of Bluelight there if it wasn't for one anonymous Bluelighter who donated $6000 and all was saved! Jase was able to buy some hardware outright and beef up the connection.

But the day to day costs continue and are becoming more everyday. for a breakdown of the costs (and some other discussion on this topic) see this thread.
http://www.bluelight.ru/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000242.html
Keep in mind that this is not a request for more money. the problem is, and always has been, a problem with traffic.
Too many people posting too many off topic threads an then continuously hitting the reload button to see if someone has replied. everytime the reload button is hit a cgi requests is made, and after a month 50 gig of traffic has passed thru the server and has to paid for, and of that 50 gig about 400k was actually useful information, on topic stuff that you want and and need to know.
This is the reaon for my increasingly strict attitude towards posting in Bluelight. Meaningless off-topic threads and repetition may once again put Bluelight in the position where it does one of two things; stops or becomes a fully fledge commercial enterprise.
Neither or which i find particularly attractive. How about you?
So that's todays rant, and history lesson. I hope it clears up a few things. Back to our regularly scheduled FAQ...

March 8th
All new members of bluelight, if you havent done so already, please:
READ THE <a href="http://www.bluelight.ru/cgi-bin/ubbmisc.cgi?action=getannounce&ForumNumber=10&Start=2451615.99&End=2451850&Session=">FAQ</a>!!!
its up the top, its called "please read before posting" can you see it? well then why didnt you all read it?

its a little out of date now that www.pillreports.com is up but its till worth a look as much of it is still relevant.
particularly our unofficial rule number one: no dealing or soliciting of deals. nothing of this sort will be aloud on this board, or even any mention of whatever you may get up to in email. email is your business... but remember that trusting strangers, even fellow bluelighters, could get you into more trouble than you need.
all pill reports should be submitted to www.pillreports.com directly. pillreports.com will automatically post the contents of your report into the oz/asia discussion forum, but olease only reply directly to the pillreports.com database. this is to keep all the information in one place and needless repition to a minimum.
its still ok to ask for info here on pills not covered by pillreports.com as well as t ask specific questions on pills.
but please, if you want information on a pill search pillreports.com, then search the oz/asia forum (as there is still plenty of pillreports archived here) and only then if you cant find what you need, post a request here.
this goes for all topics. search first ask later. a quick search on a topic word like "law" or "5htp" will usually give you the answer you need without having to make someone repeat themselves.
another thing to remember is that this board covers a huge geographical area. do not assume that everyone knows that you are from sydney, perth or KL, make sure you clearly state your location when asking or posting info.

If people follow these basic outlines it'll make for a happier bluelight all round. if anyone has anyother questions dont hesitate to email me: [email protected]

So... on with this wonderfully informative thread... highlights include:
- pinger's repost of deep's great FAQ
- heaps of people telling pinger how great "his" faq is and how smart he is
- pinger pointing out how it was deeps post, not his
- more people congratulate pinger
- lots of other people post heaps of fantastically useful info and

links
stay safe
jb &
BigTrancer :)

[This message has been edited by johnboy (edited 15 July 2000).]
[ 08 January 2002: Message edited by: johnboy ]
[ 24 February 2003: Message edited by: BigTrancer ]
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Smurf

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 15, 1999
Messages
1,230
Location
Australia
Not to be a nag, no bugger it I will.
Please put headings as
SYDNEY - Pink Hearts - Pill report
OR
SYDNEY - Pink Hearts - Need info
It is geting rather confusing with stuff flying around everywhere.
Cheers newbies
 

pinger

Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 23, 1999
Messages
1,409
Location
Sydney, NSW, Australia
hopefully this will get read..
instead of bumping i'm also going to add a post that all new people to this forum should have access to....
Some of you may remember this post by deep from the old bluelight, which was one of the initial reasons i kept coming back here. ANyway, here it is- enjoy.
cheers
pinger.
MODERATORS NOTE: PLEASE ALSO READ DEEP'S REVISED THOUGHTS ON PRE/POST-LOADING FURTHER DOWN THIS THREAD
E-verything you never wanted to know.
Posted by deep on Wednesday, 28 July 1999, at 1:51 p.m.
I have been surprised at the amount of misinformation some have been propogating and at the expense of sounding like an all knowing jerk I will post some general information here. I am going to be as explicit as possible because even elementary information may be alien to some and it is my hope that the stuff I'm about to write will at least help someone out.
Ecstasy is a generic name for pills and does not reflect their content. The content of a pill varies not only from brand to brand [i.e. Mitsubishi and Rolexes are different] but also within brands [between batches, i.e from Mitsubishi to Mitsubishi]. So buying one E is no guarantee that it will be the same as another E you had. The contents could be completely different.
The prolonged duration of the pill, as well as the visuals you experienced, would point to the content of the pill being MDA, as these are characteristic to the substance. MDMA comparatively has a cleaner comedown, shorter duration of action, no visuals, and feelings of empathy [love] and euphoria [body buzzes].
MDEA is another variant molecule often found in "E". It has a significant amphetamine effect but does not carry with it the same emotional stimulation that the aforementioned types provide. It is often the cause of the "e-tarded" feeling people have - irritable yet speedy. "Heroin" is often blamed for pills high in MDEA content, yet no tests have ever found heroin - synthetic or otherwise - in ecstasy. Furthermore, pills are cut with other substances mainly to drive down costs - heroin is more expensive per gram than MDMA and hence it would not make sense to cut a pill with it. Furthermore the dose of heroin needed to provide an effect is greater than what you could put into a tiny E pill that already contains other substances. The same holds true for cocaine. Their presence in ecstasy are simply myths.
Other myths regarding ecstasy include it draining spinal fluid [back pain is more likely due to overuse of muscles in that area because of the energy that ecstasy provides].
Obviously, MDMA is what most people are looking for. But because it is relatively difficult to synthesize [and hence more expensive] chemists often put in other less expensive substances. Since pill prices are relatively static/unchanging, the lower the cost of production, the greater the profit.
MDMA produces its effects by increasing levels of dopamine and serotonin your nervous system. Serotonin has many functions in the body, including the regulation of sleep and dreaming, the regulation of eating patterns, as well as sensations of contentedness and satisfaction. Chronically low levels of serotonin are related to depressive disorders. Dopamine is a neurochemical that amongst other functions provides the body buzz, speedy and euphoric feelings that MDMA generates.
Pills can contain other substances [i.e. methamphetamine, caffeine, ephedrine, etc.].
1] Timing is critical. Chemists often wait for a pill to earn a reputation, then pump out copycat batches using garbage ingredients? Why? Because garbage ingredients cost less. And knowing full well that once a pill has earned a name for itself, they can ride the reputation generated by the higher quality batch. Case in point: Nothing after the first generation of Mitsubishis came out last August even came close to the first generation. Many of the ones circulating now are total bullshit. But still they were bought up readily because people actually thought they were getting their hands on the real deal. Colors, stamps, etc. mean little after enough time has passed. Furthermore some pill types have been around since the beginnings of the rave scene in England. Hearts, Diamonds, E-stamps, Doves, Butterflies, etc. are not exactly unique or hard to find pill stamps. So simply because you had a heart two years ago does not mean the one you bought tonight will be any good.
Anyone with a 2nd year knowledge of organic chemistry can perform the reactions necessary to synthesize MDMA. Getting your hands on the equipment and chemical precursors is not easy but not impossible. And it does involve the use of toxic chemicals [mercury, etc.]. So don't think that all pills come from one big factory somewhere and that they're all the same. It could be overseas, in an abandoned building, a suburban home or down your street. Anyone with a pill press and a stamp can punch out copycats. If you get your hands on pills within 3 weeks of it hitting the streets then you are in good shape. Anything after that point and that it is right when the copycats usually start coming in for good pills.
2] Read, read, read. Don't go by your dealer's assurances or what your friend heard or anything else removed from facts. Read the facts and studies yourself, know the bottom line, don't let someone else tell you what is right and wrong [including myself. I openly urge everyone to read the research themselves to verify what I'm writing]. "Don't worry, it's good." is not a guarantee. Drug dealing does not obey the same code of ethics real businesses have to face. There are no penalties for lying, no penalties for putting out a shitty product, no penalties for screwing people over to make a buck.
Good places to get information are the reports page include : http://www.bluelight.net/mdma http://www.bluelight.ru http://www.ecstasy.org http://www.lycaeum.org/ http://www.erowid.org/
http://www.dropout.freeserve.co.uk/articles/preload.html
Read all of them.
...and for anyone interested in reading the actual studies http://www.infotrieve.com/freemedline
You may need an introductory understanding of physiological psychology, in which you should be able to turn up a good used textbook at your local university. I suggest the Physiology of Behaviour by Carlson.
Be forewarned that some spineless dealers post glowing reports from time to time to sell their shitty products. So if it's too good to be true, it probably is. Stick around, read everything that you can. Wait a week or two before you try digging up a certain pill to see if everyone's reactions are the same. Wait until others have tried things out. Don't trust everyone's reports, find people who judge hard and are intelligent about their usage and ask them.
3] Know what you want ahead of time, how much you want to pay for it, and don't settle for anything less. Your dealer needs you more than you need them. Period. If you don't get what you want from someone take your business elsewhere. As long as people tolerate bullshit from dealers they'll keep trying to pull it.
The whole reason why Mitsubishi's were pressed out was because over the past few years the quality of pills had decreased significantly. These days the average pill runs about 75mg of MDMA. In 1994 the average pill contained 150 mg of MDMA. In other words you could buy a single pill and split it between yourself and a friend and get the same effect as a single pill today. People grew tired of this trend and the business suffered accordingly. Mitsu's were pumped out in the summer of last year from Amsterdam to restore faith in E-trade in London. The first generation of Mitsu's were tested at 140mg+ of MDMA. For more info check out the article that Mixmag did this year on the Mitsubishi phenomenon.
The point is, don't tolerate bullshit and people won't feed it to you.
4] Buy ahead of time and never at a party. You will pay 5-10 dollars less and not have to deal with last minute mind fucks and dealer tricks. If you buy more than $300 at a time you should be entitled to a free tester from your dealer. Good prices - 300- 400 for 10, 40 - 50 dollars for any quantity less.
5] The taste of a pill is a good indication as to its content. MDMA has a characteristic bitter taste - very bitter. Scratch off a piece of the pill and put it on the tip of your tongue. If it doesn't make your face wince it probably doesn't have much good to it. It also has a characteristic "sassafras" smell, because of the use of sassafrole in the synthesis of MDMA. Pay close attention to the appearance of the pill - its color, how hard it is, the stamp, how thick it is, whether there is a score [line] down the back, whether there are speckles etc. It will help you distinguish between copycats.
6] Never depend on only one dealer. Dig for as many connections as you can find. Don't tolerate mind fucks. If someone plays mind games with you, walk away. Same as in normal business. Accept only the best and that's what you'll get.
7] Know your dealer, don't ever buy from someone you don't trust or don't like.
8] Never dose more frequently than 1 - 1.5 hours apart. The amount necessary to provide the desired effect varies from individual to individual but in Alexander Shulgin's original studies it was determined that 120 mg of MDMA is enough to fuck up the majority of the population. Generally, unless someone has acquired a tolerance from months of excessive usage, 2 pills should be enough to fuck up the majority of people [assuming that they're of relatively good quality]. There is probably not a direct relationship with bodyweight and number of pills needed for a potent dose and more likely a greater relationship with brain mass and # of pills needed, but it's generally true that the smaller you are, the less you need, and that females can get away with less than males.
9] One can acquire a tolerance for MDMA from excessive usage, necessitating more and more to produce the desired effect while accumulating more and more side effects. The only thing that can remedy the acquisition of a tolerance is abstinance.
10] Do not combine E with monoamine oxidase inhibitor drugs. Monoamine oxidase is the enzyme that helps to eventually slow down the effects of MDMA, without it, your body is like a car speeding without any breaks - it has no way of controlling itself.
11] Handle your business yourself. Don't leave it to others.
12] Stay adequately hydrated. MDMA enhances serotonin secretion, high levels of serotonin cause hyperthermia [increase in body heat]. Not to mention the fact that dancing alone works up a good sweat.
13] Take periodic sober breaks...you'll find out whether you're into the scene because of the vibe/music or the drugs rather quickly. Furthermore it will enhance the quality of your rolls when you do.
13] Double stacks are sometimes a trick used by chemists to convince people there is more MDMA in a pill than there really is. Although some double stacked pills do contain significantly more MDMA they are generally the exception rather than the rule.
14] Information is regionally specific. Meaning that a pill that was great in England may not be the same as ones circulating around here, even if the stamps are the same.
15] Metaphorically, think of your brain as the engine of a car. Certain substances floor the gas pedal and make the car go faster than normal. This is fun. But in driving faster, you use up gas [serotonin, in this specific situation] faster as well.
When these substances wear off, you are obviously left with less gas than you would have if you didn't do the speed-racer thing.
With less gas, you can't drive as fast as you normally do. Therefore you operate less efficiently. Low levels of serotonin can be characterized by changes in eating patterns, sleeping patterns, short term memory and the appearance of depressive symptoms. MDMA produces its loved up, empathic effect by increasing levels of serotonin. If the body's "gas" [serotonin] is used up faster than it is replaced, then one is left with less serotonin when it is all said and done... ...unless you go to a gas station and refill the tank [supplement with 5-HTP, eat foods rich in the amino acid trytophan like bananas or turkey meat]...
...or put the car in economy mode to use the gas more efficiently [use of an SSRI type anti-depressant]...
...or don't drive as fast, as often [use moderation in usage / frequency].
Because this is purely mathematical it applies to everyone regardless of their prior condition.
It should however be noted that the lower levels of serotonin are not permanent [i.e. the size of your gas tank has not been reduced], but rather there is temporarily less gas in the tank than normally.
Damage may even occur to the engine if driven hard with no gas in the tank. Depletion of serotonin stores is one step in a proposed mechanism for the neurotoxicity of MDMA. It can be theoretically counteracted by using engine oil [antioxidants such as Vitamin C]. I must however warn that studies correlating MDMA with neurotoxicity have only been performed in animals and only using ridiculously high dosages / frequency of usage.
There are ways in which one can decrease the negative side effects of MDMA and increase the positive ones. Although no studies have been done on these techniques and MDMA specifically, extrapolating biochemical facts and observing the experiences of those who have done it support their practice. These practices are called preloading and postloading. The entire concept behind preloading and postloading is, extending the above metaphor, adding gas to the tank that MDMA is going to use up.
Serotonin as aforementioned is responsible for the empathic, loved-up feelings from MDMA. Adding more serotonin to your system enhances these effects. More importantly, it hypothetically counteracts the mechanism MDMA is thought to induce neurotoxicity with. 5-hydroxytrytophan is the direct precursor of serotonin in the body. It is sold in health food stores to help people with sleeping disorders [one of serotonin's roles is in the regulation of sleep, as aforementioned]. It is not a drug, it is an amino acid with a hydroxyl molecule appended to it. Supplementation with 5-hydroxytrytophan enhances the loved-up, empathic feelings and cleans up the comedown.
Hard come downs are usually generated by depletion of intraneuronal serotonin stores. The result of lessed serotonin stores, as mentioned above, are characterized by disruptions in normal sleeping and eating patterns, difficulty in verbal processing and committing facts to short term memory, as well as irritatiblity. Most notably the impact of low serotonin levels is characterized by depression. Supplementation with 5-hydroxtrytophan [5-HTP for short] counteracts these negative side effects by putting more gas in the tank and ensuring that you don't run out.
In animal studies, it is hypothesized that neurotoxicity from MDMA is due to the following process. I'll put it in layman's terms.
1] MDMA amps up serotonin and dopamine use.
2] Serotonin runs out
3] Dopamine goes where serotonin normally would
4] Altered dopamine molecules cause damage to nerves
Therefore by preventing the depletion of serotonin you minimize the amount of oxidized dopamine radicals that feed into pre-axonic serotonin terminals and cause axonic trimming.
One of magnesium's major roles in the body is in muscle relaxation. It is the antagonist [opposite] of calcium, which helps to induce muscle contraction. The jaw clenching observed on MDMA can be minimized through magnesium supplementation. Added magnesium can also minimizing cramping due to dehydration. Vitamin C is a potent antioxidant. As aforementioned it is thought that MDMA is neurotoxic due to oxidized free radicals. As such Vitamin C counteracts these free radicals and helps to minimize damage incurred.
The aforementioned three elements are the most PROTECTIVE elements to a preloading regimen. The following elements are optional because they enhance the experience rather than protect you from anything specific. L-Tyrosine is to dopamine what 5-HTP is to serotonin. It is its precursor. Dopamine provides the rushy, body buzz, speedy effects...increasing L-tyrosine levels enhances these sensations.
DLPA amongst other functions, helps to prolong the duration of action of pleasure inducing neurochemicals. L-Glutamine is a precursor to neurotransmitters in the brain. It also imparts a protective effect on the brain but not as heavily as 5-HTP or Vitamin C.
Any substances that you are preloading with need to cross the blood brain barrier to be effective. Amino acids compete with each other to cross the blood brain barrier, hence eating foods rich with protein lessen the effects of the amino acids because so many are in competition. It's like having a race with 2 people or 1000 people. Those one of those two people are more likely to win when they're only racing against themselves.
As such preloads are taken on a relatively empty stomach, 1-1.5 hours prior to rolling. Preferably they are taken with a sugary juice to help the amino acids cross the blood brain barrier. Grapefruit juice inhibits one of the p450 cytochrome C digestive enzymes in the digestive tract that metabolizes MDMA and hence can make the effects of the drug somewhat more effective.
It should be noted that preloading can upset some people's stomachs or cause diarrhea due to the acidity of the stomach. In which case these symptoms are easily counteracted by the following steps:
1] Mix the capped substances into juice, shake thoroughly, and sip the solution slowly over the course of an hour prior to a roll.
2] Immodium can counteract the diarrhea and does not interfere with a roll.
3] Tums or any calcium carbonate based antacid reduces the acidity of the stomach and counteracts the feelings of sickness one might encounter when coming up from a roll or after preloading. A newbie I came across on the weekend was doubled over from their pill hitting them too hard - two tums and ten minutes later they were up on their feet feeling fine. If necessary you can also eat a non-acidic carbohydrate based food to buffer acidity, such as bread, muffins, etc.
The practice of postloading is metaphorically to fill up the tank after a long, fast ride. You restore the elements depleted by MDMA, and in doing so, bypass negative side effects and clean up your comedown while restoring normal function.
The only elements required in a postloading regimen are the protective ones. It is suggested that one employ 5-HTP, Vitamin C, Magnesium for the aforementioned reasons. A multivitamin is beneficial to help replace spent micronutrients. Water is of course beneficial. L-Tyrosine, DLPA are not desired nor necessary.
You will know if you are bypassing the negative side effects of serotonin depletion if you can sleep soundly after rolling, and do not experience significant post-MDMA depression or disturbances in verbal processing, short term memory and eating patterns.
Natural sources of trytophan [the precursor to 5-hydroxtrytophan, two steps away from serotonin] include bananas and turkey meat. Turkey's high level of trytophan is the reason why most people feel sleepy after thanksgiving / christmas dinners - the high concentration of trytophan converts to serotonin in the bloodstream. Because of serotonin's relationship to the regulation of sleep, fatigue is induced.
In so far as exact dosages of these elements, it should be noted that it varies from person to person and
experimentation is key. The following are guidelines that have been found to work for many. It should also be noted that changing the ratio's of elements can provide different effects. I.E. Decreasing 5-HTP and increasing L-Tyrosine/DLPA can enhance the speediness of a pill, but would not protect the brain from neurotoxic effects as much as more 5-HTP would. Excessive 5-HTP can mellow out a roll. Not make it mashy, but reduce the speediness of the pill.
Preloading:
1. 5-HTP - 200-400mg
2. L-Tyrosine - 500-1500mg
3. DLPA - 500-1500mg
4. Vitamin C - 1000+, since it is water soluble and so protective you really can't go wrong going high. Remember that orange juice and fruits are comparatively lower sources of vitamin C compared to supplements.
5. L-Glutamine - 2-5 grams
6. Magnesium - 500-1000mg
Post load:
1. 5-HTP - 200-400mg
2. Vitamin C - 1000mg+
3. Magnesium - 500-1000mg
Remember to experiment and take these things slowly as the sheer volume of pills ingested can upset the stomach. All elements are legal and can be found readily in health food stores and at online health food retailers.
It may seem expensive to buy all these things but to protect your brain against neurotoxic effects and reduce other negative side effects it is well worth it. SSRI type antidepressants have been shown to impart a neuroprotective effect after a roll as well. Specifically fluoxetine [Prozac] has been shown to prevent neurotoxic effects in animals. I have never met a person who has wanted to go back to rolling without preloading / postloading once they tried it. I don't benefit from any of this information directly nor do I have reason to lie. I just hope that this helps makes things safer for people out there.
You have to believe that you have control over what happens to you and that you don't have to get screwed into anything.
I hope that this information helps someone out there. I'm not normally a quote person because people never practice what they preach, but here are some maxims to roll by:
Knowledge is power
It is best to err on the side of caution
Moderation is key
I can't think of anything else. I'm out
SCROLL DOWN FOR FURTHER UPDATES ON THESE TOPICS
[This message has been edited by johnboy (edited 26 May 2000).]
 

SpanishFly

Bluelighter
Joined
Feb 11, 2000
Messages
52
Location
Melbourne
Wow Pinger, thanks for forwarding on some definitive info on pre/post rolling!
I just have one question. What happens when you're at stage 4 where 'Altered dopamine molecules cause damage to nerves'?
My head has been very tender and sore for the past 2 weeks since i was rolling. I also get tingles in my system when there is high blood pressure - example in the act of sneezing. Perhaps i am experiencing stage 4?
If so, how can you heal damaged nerves? Do they just heal naturally over time? If your nerves are damaged, is it very serious?
I would kindly appreciate any info on this!
 

Biscuit

Bluelighter
Joined
Dec 27, 1999
Messages
1,649
once nerve cells r damaged thats it, they do not regrow.
however don't stress, u have lots, but perhaps u will realise that prolonged MDMA, or any drug, use will cause such problems. MDMA esp as serotonin takes a longer time to replenish, fill the tank as pinger stated, and the crazies who r pilling 3 times in 3 days r not only wasting perfectly good MDMA, but their brains as well.
congrats pinger that was fantastic. thats the sort of info that should be made available to the masses, not "ur pill has insecticide, u will die" etc etc.
just 2 questions/comments: i would have thought the amino acid preloads, not the Mg/vit C, should be taken the night b4. metabolism of 5-htp to serotonin is said to take ~8hrs and many say all brain chemical production is most effective during sleep.
additionally Vitamin E is an infinitely better antioxidant than C. i would sugest that instead or perhaps a combo pill with both and other goodies.
i love the car metaphor, i actually made a bowling alley one up myself, to explain the whole serotonin/dopamine/HTP/free radical/prozac etc stuff, very cool, everyone thanks pinger!
 

Hamlet

Bluelighter
Joined
Feb 1, 2000
Messages
1,090
Location
Melbourne
HOLY CRAP...MOTHER OF GOD...PINGER YOU ARE A LIVING E ENCYCLOPEDIA

Yo absolutely left me speachless with the ammount of info you had!!! Way to go! I always believe into researching a thing before you get into it...XTC.org helped me out a lot here and that erowid site...but you listed even more...WOW.
Thanks a lot...you also finally cleared up the difference between MDE/MDMA/MDEA for me...by the way any info on DXM and what that is???
Good job guys keep it up
Wow

PLUR

princehamlet
------------------
No, I am not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be. Am an attendant Lord, the one that will do, to swell a progress, start a scene or two. Advise the Prince.
 

Biscuit

Bluelighter
Joined
Dec 27, 1999
Messages
1,649
DXM: dextromethorphan
in cough medicines, rare in aust, and generally only combined with other ingredients: e.g: pseudoephedrine, paracetamol.
if u r going to take it find Robitussin DX, this has ONLY DXM so is safe wrt to other drugs, i.E: it is fine to purposely take an excessive dose of DXM but the same cannot be said for paracetamol and antihistamines.
check out www.lycaeum.org/drugs: follow the DXM link and click the FAQ, William Whites
if u thought the info Pinger had was impressive this guys stuff on DXM has to be seen to be believed, i know lots about it and its all coz of this, check it out!
 

cosmic_seadog

Bluelighter
Joined
Jan 22, 2000
Messages
347
Location
Sydney, Australia
Hey people, some interesting info on an otherwise unknown area...
In studies done on rats concerning MDMA use and serotonin levels in nerve cells in the brain... they have developed a way of measuring the actual amount. Previously the only way to do this was to kill the rat, now however they can scan it and due to some indicator or whatever serotonin shows up pink.. that part isn't important, what is is that rats that had undergone chronic MDMA use, aka 2-3years every day or something, serotonin in the brain was no existant.. What was thought in the past was that once it was gone it was gone for good, with the receptors being destroyed.
What they have found recently was that actually after a period of time pink was seen in the nerve cells after a period of time without MDMA use.. therefore serotonin was being replenished and receptors healed!!!
So all the media saying otherwise to scare us now need to think up a better excuse why not to drop.
Ok, that isn't written the best and i'm being a bit silly about the whole thing, i do science at uni but on this i'm not up to scratch as i only half heard the story. It was on Triple J in the middle to late part of last year. These findings were aired at the Ecstacy convention that was held in pf all places, Amsterdam. If anyone has any info on this could you please email me.. thanks..
Chow, dog
 

pinger

Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 23, 1999
Messages
1,409
Location
Sydney, NSW, Australia
hey guys,
came back to this thread and noticed you are all crediting me with that information! you'll notice in the original message that I mentioned that it was a post from the old board by deep. I'd love to take credit for it, but there is no way I have the time and patience to put that together. SO send your props to deep. I like to think i'm a smart fucker, but certainly not around deep.
To Biscuit re 5-HTP uptake. Yes, I think for guaranteed effect you should take the night before. This will allow maximum uptake and positive "synapse bonding". Although the first time I took 5-HTP i had noticeable mood elevation +1 hour dosing, again this may have been psychosomatic or due to a generally depleted personal seratonin store from a period of taking pills without the benefits of pre- and post-loading.
I agree about the anti-oxidising properties of Vit E over C, however, vit c is also especially useful for helping to cross the blood barrier in the body to alllow maximum uptake.
Cosmic_Seadog- I have seen this study posted before on the main board middle of last year. I'm sure if you post the question on the main board someone will be able to dig it out. I guess the most important lesson is that we should give our brains a decent break between bouts of pill-taking to allow it to "recover". Makes sense really...
cheers
pinger
 

Leprechaun

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 12, 2000
Messages
1,546
Location
Vic Australia
Great info! I also suggest the following sites if people are really interested in up to date research on MDMA.
http://www.maps.org./research/mdma/
The most comprehensive site on the net.
Plus it includes that nice MDMA slide show if you are not bothered reading a BioMed/BioChem book on the effects of amphetamines!

Plus it has been proven that MDMA does causes memory problems, and DOES cause a noticable drop in serotonin over a period of years. So keep your body in balance! Don't waste the beauty of MDMA, respect it and you'll get the most out of it.
KEEP IT HAPPY!
 

Leprechaun

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 12, 2000
Messages
1,546
Location
Vic Australia
Just another bit of advice about SSRI's.
Anyone on such anti-depressents will find that MDMA has a extremely nullified effect.
DETAILS:
Prozac blocks the reuptake of Serotonin so as to keep the Serotonin levels within the synapse of a nerve at high levels. MDMA cannot release the Seretonin into the synapse at a rate as great then if you had no Prozac.
So if you are on Anti-depressents such as SSRI's then don't excpect MDMA to work much(if at all).
 

johnboy

Enlighten
Staff member
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Melbourne, Australia

BigTrancer

Bluelight Crew
Joined
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Messages
7,339
Well, whilst also serving as a *bump* for this fantastic topic, I thought of a couple of useful links that might be helpful to someone searching for that little extra bit of information. Things that most of us use for our researching of pills/new drugs that we want more info on.
The Vaults of Erowid
The Lycaeum Drug Archive
MDMA FAQ at drogeninfo.de
Nicholas Saunders' Ecstacy.org
Alexander Shulgin's PiHKAL and TiHKAL online
Bluelight.nu's pillreports.com
Synergy pillreports forum
DanceSafe
There are probably a lot more excellent resources out there, but these are the first few that I came up with quickly while I had this idea.
BigTrancer

[This message has been edited by BigTrancer (edited 14 April 2000).]
 

pkn

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 1, 2000
Messages
127
Location
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Johnboy, what about more detailed info on where we can purchase stuff for pre, and post loading. I know we cant buy 5htp in Aus, we have identified It can be purchased in either USA or NZ, and I broke down the costs in another topic ("Info required on Mitsi turbos Melb"). But what about
-L Tyrosine
-DLPA
-L Glutamine.
I'm trying to find an online Australian shop so I can establish whether these are avaliable in Aus, or we need to turn to USA or NZ again. If we had a listing of each city and the various shops that stock these products, and maybe some online address' We can save heaps of time.
I personaly think the value of pre and post loading is underestimated, and think we can make it easier for all to obtain these esential "goodies". I'm off shopping tonight for the above goods, and will post results as to my success / failure.
------------------
Keep on PeaKiN!! (King of all pea's)
 

pkn

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 1, 2000
Messages
127
Location
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Ah bugger it, here's the 5HTP costings for all to see.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have put an order through to http://marketplace.xtra.co.nz/cgi-bin/healthyonline.storefront in NZ for two jars of 50mg 5htp (bit costly, but quick delivery,3 working days they say) and also to http://www.iherb.com/ in the States for 4 jars of 100mg 5htp (cheap but long delivery 1-5 weeks). My plan is that I'll have the NZ stuff by Easter, enough to get me through in such short notice, and use the USA stuff as a regular supply. I think the NZ supply will be good for obtaining quickly.
My costings are as such.
NZ 5htp: NZ$53 for 60 x 50mg tabs. (Delivered)
= A$44.16 (converted at $1.20)
= A$1.47 per 100mg of 5htp.
US 5htp: US$60 for 240 x 100mg tabs.
(Delivered)
= A$101.69 (converted at $0.59c)
= A$0.42c per 100mg of 5htp.
All transactions were done with VISA online.
Hope this helps peeps!!!
------------------
Keep on PeaKiN!! (King of all pea's)
 

BigTrancer

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Mar 12, 2000
Messages
7,339
My suggestions for inclusion into this FAQ, on matters of posting protocol.
or
"BigTrancer's Guide to the DOs and DONTs of www.bluelight.ru":

DOLIST (this is stuff people send you hugs and smileys for)
DO READ THE FAQ.
DO search for previous posts about the topic you're considering posting.
DO post questions if/when your search results don't quite answer your query.
DO post pill reports that are as detailed as possible to www.pillreports.com
DO post as "on topic" as possible.
DO respect all posters right to have (and express) their opinion without fear of judgement, as you would expect them to respect yours.
DO observe "netiquette": (Don't type all in CAPS etc.)
DO think before you post.
DONTLIST (this is the stuff people get growly and fierce at your for):
DONT post without searching first; many topics have been covered and discussed in minute detail.
DONT forget to include important information with each post, where relevant, such as location for pillreports/queries.
DONT post the real names of other posters without their permission (or at all) - this includes IMPersonating another member.
DONT solicit the sale of prohibited substances online.
DONT immediately jump on someone for little slip ups - we all make mistakes.
Feel free to add to this list...
BigTrancer
 

johnboy

Enlighten
Staff member
Joined
Oct 27, 1999
Messages
6,873
Location
Melbourne, Australia
if anyone is searching for real scientific date on MDMA the first place (but not the last) you should look is
http://www.maps.org
from this site is this excellent article detailing the lack of data about MDMA neurotoxicity.
http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v09n3/09304dob.html
another new highlight is this great real audio talk. this is MAPS description:
"MDMA ('Ecstasy')Research: When Science and Politics Collide. Sound quality is excellent except for the first few minutes, so be patient. Speakers: Julie Holland, MD, attending psychiatrist, Bellevue Hospital Psychiatric Emergency Room and faculty, NYU
School of Medicine; John P. Morgan, MD, professor of pharmacology, City College of
New York; and Rick Doblin, president, MAPS) and Ph.D. candidate, Kennedy School of
Government, Harvard University, assessed scientific and political efforts to conduct
MDMA research in the US and abroad. "
http://www.soros.org:8080/ramgen/tlc/ecstasy03_30_00.rm
when i've tried to listen there has been a lot of net congestion but it is definitly worth it. there is lots of interesting details that get missed in major articles.
i urge everyone to give this a listen.if you are only going to do one bit of research about what e does this audio file is perfect.
even if you've read everything on the net about e already this has many details not
found any where else.
as molly would say, do yourself a favour

------------------
.... he who makes a beast of himself, rids himself of the pain of being a man...
 

Simba

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 30, 2000
Messages
87
Location
South coast, N.S.W. Australia
pinger that's a great idea, maybe someone can make up kits with all the stuff for preloading/postloading and than it would be easy for everyone to buy the whole lot in one pack on-line.
------------------
Simba
 

pinger

Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 23, 1999
Messages
1,409
Location
Sydney, NSW, Australia
guys,
erowid look to have recently updated the material on their site, so have a look around.
this article deals specifically with effects of e on memory and mental skills http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/references/mdma_overview_memory1.shtml
herewith is the conclusion if you cant be arsed
Conclusion
Despite the uncertainty of and problems with the research published as of March 1, 2000, there is enough evidence to think that heavy MDMA use may cause medium or long term disruptions in short term memory and/or some types of mental fuction. The data so far is too weak to say for certain whether this is true or what percentage of users would be affected. Also, to date, the evidence may suggest that if MDMA use causes any memory or attention changes, the changes are subtle and are more likely the more frequent the use, the higher the dose, and/or the larger the lifetime total use. Unfortunately even the correlation between increased use and increased change is uncertain.
The data is far from conclusive, but certainly suggests caution for those who use MDMA regularly or heavily.
cheers
pinger
 
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