Harm Reduction drug fillers and body damage - why?

[Slow_Mobius]

I don't think your suggestions are outrageous. I just think your suggestions are unrealistic.

 

[kleinerkiffer]

I was not suggesting they are being used as an abuse deterrent - just that if your main profit business is making IR versions of drugs that historically have been IVd by everyone and their dog, you should do some research to find a stable, harmless compound to use as filler for your pills. I don't think what I'm suggesting is at all outrageous.

The problem is it's most likely not that easy to find such a substance, that will act as binder/filler and is harmless, even if injected in high amounts. It's not like you could take any substance, mix it with the drug and you got a stable pill. And it would need a lot of testing, studies etc. this would most likely take a few years.

Of course it would be great, but imo it's more realistic that doctors prescribe IV solutions to IV addicts instead of drug manufacturers making abusable pills

 

[cdin]

i mean honestly, these are some of the best customers, if I pulled in a smooth 15 billion yearly profit, I think I could earmark some of that to make sure my besties weren't drowning in their lungs in a decade but, to each their own I guess. My mind is blown apart by the terror that is humanity.

 

[burn out]

The problem is it's most likely not that easy to find such a substance, that will act as binder/filler and is harmless, even if injected in high amounts. It's not like you could take any substance, mix it with the drug and you got a stable pill. And it would need a lot of testing, studies etc. this would most likely take a few years.

Of course it would be great, but imo it's more realistic that doctors prescribe IV solutions to IV addicts instead of drug manufacturers making abusable pills

Dude, come on. These companies have chemists that specialize in exactly this type of thing. I'm willing to bet it would not be that difficult at all to make a pill that could be broken down and IVed safely. I'm telling you I could make a crude "pill" at home just by cutting powder and packing it in a capsule. You're telling me that guys with degrees who do this as a PROFESSION and have access to all the necessary chemicals and equipment couldn't figure this out very quickly?

 

[Slow_Mobius]

Dude, come on. These companies have chemists that specialize in exactly this type of thing. I'm willing to bet it would not be that difficult at all to make a pill that could be broken down and IVed safely. I'm telling you I could make a crude "pill" at home just by cutting powder and packing it in a capsule. You're telling me that guys with degrees who do this as a PROFESSION and have access to all the necessary chemicals and equipment couldn't figure this out very quickly?

I'm a biochemist. I don't have personal experience in developing drug delivery systems, but I can tell you that drug delivery is much more complicated than you might think. A lot of it also has to do with the chemical engineering and manufacturing side of things. You need something that will provide cost-effective consistency.

Basically, they wouldn't be able to make an IV safe pill without compromising somewhere. Moreover, that would come across as facilitating drug abuse which is not going to fly with the public and most doctors.

It would be neither easy nor economically feasible.

 

[cdin]

but there are ALREADY pills made without most of the worst offenders - Talc, microcrystalline cellulose, magnesium stearate. Just switch to the already known ingredients. It will be a little less simple, some testing and they don't need to be absolutely SAFE to IV. just not cause peoples lungs to collapse long term - there's a middle ground here, i'm confident of it.

 

[kleinerkiffer]

I'm a biochemist. I don't have personal experience in developing drug delivery systems, but I can tell you that drug delivery is much more complicated than you might think. A lot of it also has to do with the chemical engineering and manufacturing side of things. You need something that will provide cost-effective consistency.

Basically, they wouldn't be able to make an IV safe pill without compromising somewhere. Moreover, that would come across as facilitating drug abuse which is not going to fly with the public and most doctors.

It would be neither easy nor economically feasible.

Exactly
I mean, yes, they could just put the drug into a capsule and there you go, no fillers/binders and you have an IR drug, but do you really think the DEA would allow it ? Real pain patiens often don't get enough opioids for their pain, because doctors are being pressured into prescribing less opioids, because the DEA doesn't want people to abuse them, so do you really think they'd let an abusable formula on the market ?

 

[Solipsis]

Yeah it's tricky, not sure if they'd allow it if they just change the formula - do they really have to justify switching those excipients? They aren't really official abuse deterrants are they?

Abuse will probably not change from it (more on that later), so I agree that they are just causing harm for no good reason.

I kind of want to agree that there are ways the situation might be improved, for example by the tamperproof matrix oxy now has (but that may not happen until either there is a ritalin lung epidemic they cannot ignore or if the method to make those matrices becomes so cheap that it's worth it for them).
It may not be worth it for them anyway. Apparently the new oxy formula doesn't change abuse numbers all that much (relatively I'd guess), yet sales have dropped since they changed it. So it might take pressure like a ritalin lung epidemic after all.

We can talk all day long about how the world ought to be, but it's a little pointless and can be naieve. The solution has to be in everyone's best interest, and not at the cost of the pharm company.

Let's see what the problems would be with switching those excipients:

talc: so, lubricants... don't know if starch is better, does it eventually dissolve?

microcrystalline cellulose: so, binders... microcrystalline cellulose is a pretty ideal binder (if the pill is used correctly)... the resistance to water and extensive structure kind of are the same reasons why its good as why it will just sit there in your lungs when inhaled.

magnesium stearate: so, antiadherents / lubricants... again just one of the best for this purpose. Switching to water soluble ones is only done when the tablet is completely soluble and readily disintegrates or needs a unique kind of dissolution. They wouldn't want that for any regular pill probably.

Not sure what is really compatible - maybe let's assume pharmacy isn't necessarily that easy.

 

[tacodude]

I'll just add it clearly says only take pills as directed.... That is due to the fact that other ROA can be harmful not only due to the different rate of active absorption of the medication, but the fact that the different ingredients can be harmfull if put up the nose or in your veins. If you are suffering any long term damage from abusing them that's your fault for not educating yourself before going against advice. I hate to be blunt, but it's simple as that.

As far as not being told or why pills are made like that it's likely just the cheapest and easiest way to produce pills. I also highly doubt you did your research as anyone here would be more than willing to tell you about filters and binders plus on top of that there is a very well known set of pictures showing microscopic photos of oxycotin and subutex both filtered with cotton and micron filters to show how much dirtier a cotton filtered solution is. I actually believe heroin helper shows the same comparison, but other pills. Again I seriously doubt the only info you could find was just not to shoot pills with no explanations

 

[Amaraline]

Pills are not meant for injection regardless if people use it. They make OP to prevent such things but people still find ways to do it. Should they be prosecuted for that too? I find this a tad silly, no offense.

This is true, I must admit, and I used to inject dilaudid when I couldn't find any heroin. Yes, the pharmaceutical companies are corrupt as hell, as well as the FDA, but seriously. I'm not a lawyer, but I think most lawyers would say, "Hey, they were never meant to be used in this manner. You have no case." I could be wrong, but this just sounds like common sense. We know the risks but some of us do it anyway. Caveat Emptor.

 

[cdin]

not trying to make excuses, I was trying to think more along lines like solipses : what are substitutes that could retain properties needed for the pills. and as far as available information, I am referring to conversations I have had across the country at various needle exchanges/harm reduction centers. I agree, I made a stupid mistake, I know how the internets work, but theres plenty of people out in the street drug use scene where their primary source of information is the exchange they visit one a week. In that setting, I never had anyone tell me about the COPD/lung risk, just the acute risks of stroke, abscess etc. Just trying to help fewer people drown in lungs. Fuck, how about a big black box warning with some CT scans or lung tissue pics that say "INJECTING THIS MEDICATION WILL CAUSE EMPHYSEMA" that would really have helped a lot im not hoping for a magical world of completely soluble pills delivered to my door

 

[Slow_Mobius]

not trying to make excuses, I was trying to think more along lines like solipses : what are substitutes that could retain properties needed for the pills. and as far as available information, I am referring to conversations I have had across the country at various needle exchanges/harm reduction centers. I agree, I made a stupid mistake, I know how the internets work, but theres plenty of people out in the street drug use scene where their primary source of information is the exchange they visit one a week. In that setting, I never had anyone tell me about the COPD/lung risk, just the acute risks of stroke, abscess etc. Just trying to help fewer people drown in lungs. Fuck, how about a big black box warning with some CT scans or lung tissue pics that say "INJECTING THIS MEDICATION WILL CAUSE EMPHYSEMA" that would really have helped a lot im not hoping for a magical world of completely soluble pills delivered to my door

I totally agree with you that we need better education, but it's really hard for me to believe you right now. Honestly, can you tell me that if they said, "injecting these meds can cause stroke (potentially fatal with serious plausibility of having permanent damage to your nervous system), abcesses (which can also be fatal in severe cases and carries a plausible risk for losing s limb), AND COPD" instead of saying, "injecting these meds can cause stroke and abcesses" you wouldve dropped everything and decided to never shoot again?

You were warned of other even more serious conditions and that didn't deter you, and you abused medications in a way that you knew carried significant risk. Could anyone have told you that you were for sure going to get emphysema from injecting? Of course not, but it's one of the many, many risks that goes along with injecting pills. C'mon man.

Im sorry that you're dealing with these health problems now, but please don't try to put it on other people who didn't warn you.

 

[cdin]

it wouldn't have stopped me on a few desperate occasions, but yeah, being made aware of serious and likely acute complication makes me stop things in the long run, and I suspect other people as well. I quit tobacco for similar reasons. I just wanted to put this out there because ive seen so much bad behavior re pill shooting in the junkie community at large. too bad we can't supply .22 nm wheel filters for everyone. does anyone know if the .45 micron filters(muuch less expensive) are worth it for this sort of particle?

 

[Thomas29]

I Agree Sadly not enough people know about how dangerous NOT Using A 0.1 Micron Filter with I.V. Use an be on your Lungs And Heart or that some people do not even know what A Micron Filter is but I did hear from an I.V. User I know Say there was A Health Truck giving Away Free Clean needle syringes and Micron Filters and stuff, which is GREAT!