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Does Armageddon make Jesus rather evil?

Foreigner

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I don't know how you can say god can't be blamed for making humans in the bible when he literally does. Also I never said human are inherently evil, I said evil exist, and if evil is a word you don't like then human suffering exists. Jesus is predicted in the old testament. The Old talks about a messiah. Where are you getting your info/interpretations of the Bible?

If God is a third party entity that's running this show, then yeah we can blame God.

But as God is infinite, we are part of God, we are God. Since God is neither good nor evil, it's our own ignorance that leads us into suffering. I'm not saying life isn't painful, but a lot of the dramas humans suffer are their own doing.

Rather than blaming God for everything, seeking one's own True Nature reveals pretty much everything. The problem is that conditions have to be right to do that, including teachings that dispel ignorance. Not everyone has that. So they get stuck in the world of objects, some of which do seemingly evil things, and then blame God for creating those objects.
 

keseyhitchens

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If God is a third party entity that's running this show, then yeah we can blame God.

But as God is infinite, we are part of God, we are God. Since God is neither good nor evil, it's our own ignorance that leads us into suffering. I'm not saying life isn't painful, but a lot of the dramas humans suffer are their own doing.

Rather than blaming God for everything, seeking one's own True Nature reveals pretty much everything. The problem is that conditions have to be right to do that, including teachings that dispel ignorance. Not everyone has that. So they get stuck in the world of objects, some of which do seemingly evil things, and then blame God for creating those objects.
Like the previous guy I think you are getting things wrong. If God was "neither good nor evil" then god wouldn't be god because GOd in every popular human definition has omnipotence. You are welcome to excuse the horrors of life by not ascribing a morality toward god. It doesn't hold up. You say god is infinite. You have no proof of that but if he/she/it/they are then they are well aware of homo sapiens morality and suffering. I'm not blaming god for everything, that would be ridiculous. The problem is no human will understand the true nature of the universe, if that is even possible, and every human will be ignorant in most things. But yea lol if god has the power to create the universe how he wishes and his does is with immense suffering when he could have created it without then there is something wrong with him
 

Gormur

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I don't know how you can say god can't be blamed for making humans in the bible when he literally does. Also I never said human are inherently evil, I said evil exist, and if evil is a word you don't like then human suffering exists. Jesus is predicted in the old testament. The Old talks about a messiah. Where are you getting your info/interpretations of the Bible?
I know the Bible but I lean towards Jewish belief and interpretation; https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15984/showrashi/true/jewish/Chapter-53.htm

Since Jesus didn't fulfill messianic prophecy I guess I'm done here. I just wanted to say that God isn't evil but He might be bad. He's probably good. I'm not speculating here. I'm going by the text. I keep it simple. I don't understand how people get so confused by text. The Bible is probably the easiest book to read
 

keseyhitchens

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I know the Bible but I lean towards Jewish belief and interpretation; https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15984/showrashi/true/jewish/Chapter-53.htm

Since Jesus didn't fulfill messianic prophecy I guess I'm done here. I just wanted to say that God isn't evil but He might be bad. He's probably good. I'm not speculating here. I'm going by the text. I keep it simple. I don't understand how people get so confused by text. The Bible is probably the easiest book to read
Read what I said to the other guy
 

Gormur

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Read what I said to the other guy
I guess you're talking about: Isaiah 45:7 Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these. Rashi says Who forms light: for the righteous. and creates darkness: for Babylon, and the same applies to "Who makes peace and creates evil."

I think what you might be saying though is that, for example since God created Lucifer that reflects on His nature. My interpretation of this would be that our actions make us who we are. God is omnipresent and doesn't suffer for His actions. Evil will always suffer because it's selfish

Peace
 
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Gormur

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Jesus is predicted in the old testament.
Where though? Even my mom says this, she's a Christian and I was forced to be Christian as a kid but I've never seen this and I've read all kinds of KJV, NKJV and NIV versions. I've never seen the name Jesus mentioned in any of these or even in the original versions in Aramaic and Hebrew. We don't know the name of the messiah to come

Sorry but you're making this up or some pastor told you this
 

birdup.snaildown

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@Gormur

Jesus fulfilled certain aspects of the prophecy laid out in the old testament.


Zechariah 9:9: "... your king is coming to you; righteous and having salvation is he, humble and mounted on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey."

It doesn't mention the name Jesus (that wouldn't make any sense), it mentioned the coming of a prophet.
 

Gormur

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@Gormur

Jesus fulfilled certain aspects of the prophecy laid out in the old testament.




It doesn't mention the name Jesus (that wouldn't make any sense), it mentioned the coming of a prophet.
A bit different from what it says here: https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16213/showrashi/true/jewish/Chapter-9.htm#v9

Zechariah 9:9 Be exceedingly happy, O daughter of Zion; Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem. Behold! Your king shall come to you. He is just and victorious; humble, and riding a donkey and a foal, the offspring of [one of] she-donkeys.
Rashi says

Behold! Your king shall come to you: It is impossible to interpret this except as referring to the King Messiah, as it is stated: “and his rule shall be from sea to sea.” We do not find that Israel had such a ruler during the days of the Second Temple.
just and victorious: saved by the Lord.
and riding a donkey: This is a symbol of humility.
and a foal of she-donkeys: as in (Gen. 32:16)"and ten foals.

Or maybe I just prefer it being closer to the original text. ;) Either way this isn't exactly a prophecy but the sign of a messiah/messenger (same thing in Hebrew). Jesus didn't rebuild the Temple. I guess he needs a second coming for that; in my opinion of course. Cheers
 
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birdup.snaildown

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The translation isn't significantly different.

The Jewish church (at the time of Jesus) believed in the prophecy of a messiah. Jesus - if he existed - was well-versed in Judaic scripture, so he did a couple of things to "fulfil" this prophecy. That is not how a prophecy is supposed to work, but that's what he did.
 

Gormur

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The translation isn't significantly different.

The Jewish church (at the time of Jesus) believed in the prophecy of a messiah. Jesus - if he existed - was well-versed in Judaic scripture, so he did a couple of things to "fulfil" this prophecy. That is not how a prophecy is supposed to work, but that's what he did.
They still do believe that a messiah is coming to restore the Temple and usher in world peace. That's not what Jesus did so he couldn't be the messiah

Christianity is just such a weird religion. I suspect early Christians didn't actually consider Jesus to be the/their messiah but perhaps some type of moral figure who told parables and performed miracles. Like I said, that wasn't unusual at the time. It's just all Christians talk about is Jesus of Nazareth
 

Gnostic Bishop

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I don't know how you can say god can't be blamed for making humans in the bible when he literally does. Also I never said human are inherently evil, I said evil exist, and if evil is a word you don't like then human suffering exists. Jesus is predicted in the old testament. The Old talks about a messiah. Where are you getting your info/interpretations of the Bible?

If we have a dualistic nature, and we do, then we are capable and will do both good and evil.

In fact, given that we must compete, and the losers will feel evil has befallen them, we have to see that we must all do evil to survive and thrive.

I have a TLDR on this.
=============

Eve was correct in eating of the tree of knowledge and rejecting God.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

This indicates that Jesus had no choice.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane and immoral God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women. They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.
------------------------

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature, then the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.

As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.

Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL

Evolutionary theology.
 

Gnostic Bishop

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The translation isn't significantly different.

The Jewish church (at the time of Jesus) believed in the prophecy of a messiah. Jesus - if he existed - was well-versed in Judaic scripture, so he did a couple of things to "fulfil" this prophecy. That is not how a prophecy is supposed to work, but that's what he did.
An angel rising up was prophesied in Jewish traditions.

The notion of the messiah being a man was a corruption introduced as canon by Constantine when he bough out the church and forced that ridiculous Trinity concept down the intelligentsia's throat.

Christianity is still immoral and not too bright.

He wanted to declare himself another god. Many Emperors had done so before him.

The Messiah Before Jesus? | National Geographic - YouTube

Regards
DL
 
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