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Bupe Do subs and Desmethyltramadol Work the Same as subs and trams?

opiat

Greenlighter
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
4
I have been on suboxone maintenance for almost 2 years. I have been off of H for 3 years. I really want to try the whole bupe and trams thing because I think its great that something works on subs even if it is just the SNRI thing. I was just wondering if anyone out there has any experience with both subs and trams and also subs and desmethyltramadol. Are the effects basically the same with either combo or are they different?

Also when I tried looking this up I found information about of course subs and trams but nothing addressing the exact question that I am proposing. I am kind of figuring some people are going to say well if subs and trams work together then of course subs and o dt will work together as well but honestly o dt and tramadol are two different chemicals.

Currently I for some reason do not have any easy way to get my hands on trams but there is always the internet for odt.
 
I learned that plain old tramadol is more complex than O DT. That makes total sense because of the fact that ODT is just the main metabolite of tramadol. Also I do not think that it is just the SNRI effect that causes people to "feel good" on the combination of the two. I do not think that it can be the serotonin aspect of the SNRI that causes the "feel good" part because I have been on an SSRI and it does not make me feel any better on suboxone. I know that SSRIs take like 2 weeks to feel any effects if any whatsoever. I just read that SNRIs are the same way in that they take about 4-6 weeks to take full effect. So somebody taking tramadol with suboxone is most likely experiencing something other than that SNRI effect. Maybe there is something that causes you to feel the effects of tramadol through the suboxone barrier. I wish somebody could actually scientifically research this phenomena to determine why this occurs. I want to experience it for myself to see if it actually does occur because it is such a curiosity to me considering the fact that I have tried to do dope after taking a sub and I haven't felt anything at all. Little tramadol somehow makes you feel good although comparatively mighty heroin does not. I do not know the binding affinity of tramadol or buprenorphine but I can almost guarantee you that buprenorphine's affinity is higher. There lies the mystery. What is the mechanism by which people are feeling good off of the combination? I am not a pharmacologist (obviously) but this is the way that I am sizing up that situation.

I hope someone out there can help me shed light on whether or not it is even worth getting ODT to use with subs or if I should instead attempt to find tramadol. I already know that tramadol is scheduled here in the US which is just a huge pain in the ass.
 
ODT usually means sublingual drugs (orally disintegrating tablet), might mean "opioid dependence treatment", like a catchall for methadone and Suboxone and Vivitrol and over-priced in-patient bullshit with NA. I'm not sure if you're using it as O-desmethyl tramadol? That by itself isn't available for Rx, I don't think.

Number one: SSRI's don't make you "feel good". That comes from serotonin releasers like MDMA, not reuptake inhibitors. If our antidepressants made us happy, they would probably be illegal. It's more that they dampen emotions and make us less dramatically sad. More serotonin =/= happiness, despite the marketing.

Two, blocking norepinephrine reuptake is complicated, requires a higher dose, and usually isn't perceived as pleasant.

C: desmethyltramadol seems to be the metabolite most active at mu opioid receptors, but those are already more than covered by buprenorphine, much tighter than tramadol.

IV: so I don't think anyone would write an Rx for tramadol while you're on Subutex or Suboxone.

What's interesting is that methadone by itself is a serotonin reuptake inhibitor, better than tramadol, and agonist for HT2A and HT2C. But you don't hear about happy methodone users, pretty much ever.

Off my brain I remember a study giving bupropion/Welbutrin (sort of antidepressant, mainly anti-nAcChR, when taken orally) to inpatients on methadone. It was a pilot study, but it showed no benefit.

I don't mean to say it's a waste to go on antidepressants when detoxing off opioids, at all, I think it might really help. But I think you're confusing anecdotes about some feel-good combination that doesn't exist.
 
I can totally understand what you mean about the confusing anecdotes thing but having read these forums about tramadol and suboxone I have read many times that people have said that tramadol and suboxone has caused them to feel nice, good ect. Since I have never taken the combination before I am wondering if it actually works. I have also never witnessed the same consensus of the combination of say Vicodin or tramadol in which case everybody almost definitely says it is blocked by either the high binding affinity of buprenorphine or the naloxone in it or both. Its the consensus that draws me to this particular combination. I of course plan on only taking this combo starting with say a small dose of either 50mg or 100mg to be as safe as humanly possible. Of course it is very likely that all of those people who take the combination are just experiencing some sort of placebo effect, but I would like to find out for myself, even if it means being wrong. Try to see it from my prospective, if I can find something that magically works with suboxone and doesn't show up on a drug test then by all means it sounds like a great possibility every once in a while.(wishful thinking for sure) I have made a note of the seizure risk associated with tramadol and that is why I am going to stick to a low dose. Also the only person in my family who suffers from epilepsy is a pretty distant relative.

The Odt thing is just an abbreviation of O desmethyltramadol. I understand now that it is easily confusable with other abbreviations and I will fix that in the future.

I almost figured I would be tripped up by the comment about the SSRIs and SNRIs because I have an obvious and severe lack of knowledge regarding these drugs. My understanding of them is that they take weeks to "kick in" so I don't see how somebody could claim to feel good off of tramadol and suboxone after one dose and attribute it solely to the SNRI aspect of tramadol. Although when I was in jail guys used to snort Wellbutrin like it was cocaine and claimed to be high even though it is an antidepressant. Those guys will do anything to get high though IMO. Again I do not have the prerequisite knowledge necessary in the "field" of SSRIs and SNRIs so I am just going to stop talking about them starting now.

I am glad that the above poster shed more doubt on the o desmethyltramadol idea I had. It makes more sense that way because the consensus that I have gathered is solely based on the effects of the combination of tramadol and suboxone and not of the effects of O desmethyltramadol and suboxone. I have read that people say O desmethyltramadol does not feel anything like tramadol as well. [again more anecdotal evidence]

With all that in mind I am going to go through with this idea of mine. The way that I see it the conclusion drawn from the effects of tramadol and suboxone being solely an SRNI effect does not make any sense to me. I know that it is full of wishful thinking and anecdotal evidence yet I still feel the need to proceed. I understand the risks. I do not feel the need to post the sources for the consensus that I have gathered because some of the forums were not on this site and some of them were. A simple investigation will yield the same general consensus that I have gathered. Within those forums I have read that some people do not believe anything happens when the combination occurs yet a good many people do say something is different in the effects. I think that more people say something occurs with this combination compared to any other combination of opiate pill + suboxone. That is the basis for the experiment. Its largely a myth debunking thing.

With all that being said you can close out this thread or do whatever it is that you do with them when they are done. I am new to this after all so please bear with me. I will post results in either this thread if it is still open or else find an ongoing suboxone and tramadol thread. I also understand that these results will not be conclusive by any stretch of the imagination however I consider myself to have a fairly objective mind in matters like this.
 
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Well, I'm not sure what combination you're talking about really. But:

Tramadol -> desmethyltramadol = O-desmethyltramadol = nortramadol. It's a metabolite, not a drug for sale.

I think it's a waste to take with buprenorphine, but why not. I can't believe there's some kind of bizarre synergy between the two that causes whole new pharmacodynamics.

See, you're right about SSRI's taking weeks to "kick in". That's because tramadol is a pain killer first, not an antidepressant. Methadone would make a better SSRI. And for pain-killing, the buprenorphine has you covered.

But good luck.

EDIT: one last thought, there is a thing called ORT, opioid replacement therapy. I was gonna say they used to do ORT with ODTs, but that's not technically accurate (Subutex was a sublingual tablet, but orally-disintegrating tablets are actually meant to be swallowed).
 
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Yes ORT is the proper term- and D-Tramadol is pretty much a traditional opioid agonist, surprisingly with a binding affinity similar to oxycodone (supposedly)

Buprenorphine will knock it straight off-also Scrofula, methadone had legitimate antidepressant effect, though the dose can't be too high- an d of course methadone could probably make a lot of people feel better (Even Amps in CONTROLLED DOSES HAS POTENTIAL, OR I am crazy)
 
Tramadol -> desmethyltramadol = O-desmethyltramadol = nortramadol. It's a metabolite, not a drug for sale.

O-Desmethyl-Tramadol is currently being sold online as a "research chemical" (as in "legal high"), and is most commonly abbreviated as "O-DSMT". However, it never achieved the popularity of more potent (and thus cheaper) RC opioids like U-47700 or various fentanyl analogues.
 
The reported affinity of for the μ-receptor is 10 times less than that of codeine and 6000 times less than that of morphine.

The major active metabolite M1 (O-desmethyl-tramadol) has a modestly higher affinity at 300 times less than morphine.
O-desmethyltramadol is two to four times more potent than tramadol. In addition, it stimulates neuronal serotonin release and inhibits the presynaptic reuptake of both norepinephrine and serotonin at synapses. Naloxone only partially reverses the analgesic effect of tramadol. Thus, tramadol provides analgesia synergistically by opioid (direct binding to the μ-opioid receptor by the parent compound and its metabolite) and nonopioid mechanisms (an increase in central neuronal synaptic levels of 5-HT and NE).

If you don't take more than 500mg, you might as well go with the parent vs purchasing O-DT as a pricey powder. However if you need more, then go with something more along the lines of a classical opioid as Tramadol is considered to be twice as potent as Codeine. But with Bupe guarding the front door, nobody's gettin in anyways.
 
As mentioned, yes, methadone already has the traits she describes, but it doesn't have the same fond associations as OP's anecdotes about tramadol and buprenorphine; my point being, it's because those traits by themselves do not create happy feelings. That's not what antidepressants do, even allowing that an antidepressant is whatever the FDA allows marketing to say is an antidepressant.

And to my knowledge nortramadol was never developed as a proper pharmaceutical, and any for sale is probably just tramadol. My guess is it would be less likely to linger in our brains than the parent, probably making any extra opioid affinity a wash. If it did linger, it might've made for a genuinely recreational RC, unlike the fent analogues.
 
That's a good point (After ll IV Benadryl is approved for migraine' it must be safer and better than the alternatives... Not dispu to i g that source Jekly, just saying FTW that I've read somewhere it was higher than that albeit skeptical
 
And to my knowledge nortramadol was never developed as a proper pharmaceutical, and any for sale is probably just tramadol.

U-47700 wasn't developed as a proper pharmaceutical, nor were the approximately 5 fantastillion RC fentanyl analogues, synthetic cannabinoids and cathinones. That didn't stop the Chinese from litterally synthing tons of them. The pharmacology of Tramadol and its metabolites (especially O-Desmethyltramadol) has been extensively studied, and I seriously doubt the synthesis of O-DSMT is all that much more difficult than regular tramadol, plus it has the advantage of being mostly unscheduled... so all in all, I have little doubt that most of the O-DSMT for sale from RC vendors probably *is* O-DSMT.

In fact, this stuff has been around for a while, originally making news around 2009-2010 when a bunch of Swedes died after taking a powdered kratom product called "Krypton", which was eventually found to be cut with O-DSMT.
https://academic.oup.com/jat/article/35/4/242/769060

My guess is it would be less likely to linger in our brains than the parent, probably making any extra opioid affinity a wash. If it did linger, it might've made for a genuinely recreational RC, unlike the fent analogues.

https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/O-DSMT
Eh, we're talking about a methoxy being de-methylated into a hydroxyl. That probably does decrease oral BA by a fair amount, but even then O-DSMT is reported to be significantly more potent than plain tramadol, if also significantly less long-lasting (but it's not like morphine or oxymorphone are known for having particularly long half-lives either).
I doubt it's a completely "worthless" drug, but it's probably just not all that interesting to most opioid users when heroin, fentanyl or various prescription opioids offer significantly better "value" for the price.
 
I'm thinking the appearance of a polar group where once there was an ether, reduces lipid solubility, and thus brain penetration. Sort of the reverse of morphine to heroin, but I'm sure there are examples where that seems to help.

I bring up the development as a drug, because if there wasn't some catch with nortramadol, why not market that one? It's got a vaguely pethidine shape to it--probably came out of massive screens through a very detailed pharmacophore, and wasn't accidental. There's a chance that the developers were angling for lower dependence risk, but the same phenyl methoxy remains in venlafaxine.

And I can't imagine it's ever cost-effective to build up from scratch what's got to be easier to just divert. The ultra-high potency opioids might make sense, but even then you'll notice typically include more, or bigger, substituents, never a slight shift in positioning of some functional group. There's like 100,000 documented tropane analogs, the same for every known brain receptor, and yet RC vendors always seem to go with ones brought to legitimate market and technically available.
 
I'm thinking the appearance of a polar group where once there was an ether, reduces lipid solubility, and thus brain penetration. Sort of the reverse of morphine to heroin, but I'm sure there are examples where that seems to help.

*cough* morphine being O-desmethyl-codeine *cough* ;)
Sure demethylation reduces BBB penetration and probably even more so oral BA, but increased receptor affinity/efficacy more than makes up for that sometimes.
Oxymorphone has 2 hydroxyls AND a carbonyl, but while oral BA is atrocious, it is still lipophilic enough to penetrate your BBB and fuck those mu receptors even harder than hydromorphone due to its added 14-hydroxy clitoral stimulator 8(

I bring up the development as a drug, because if there wasn't some catch with nortramadol, why not market that one? It's got a vaguely pethidine shape to it--probably came out of massive screens through a very detailed pharmacophore, and wasn't accidental. There's a chance that the developers were angling for lower dependence risk, but the same phenyl methoxy remains in venlafaxine.

The "catch" was, presumably, simply the significantly shorter half-life for nor-tramadol. Synthing stuff is cheap. Getting stuff approved by the FDA and doing enough marketing to actually get doctors to prescribe it is expensive as hell. To use another RC example, Etizolam is a perfectly fine benzo (or technically "thieno") that is enjoying widespread popularity in Asia, similar to what alprazolam is in the West. So why not market it over here? Well, alprazolam was already firmly entrenched in the market, so there was little reason to do it.

And I can't imagine it's ever cost-effective to build up from scratch what's got to be easier to just divert. The ultra-high potency opioids might make sense, but even then you'll notice typically include more, or bigger, substituents, never a slight shift in positioning of some functional group. There's like 100,000 documented tropane analogs, the same for every known brain receptor, and yet RC vendors always seem to go with ones brought to legitimate market and technically available.

Diverting a controlled substance isn't necessarily "easier", though. Diverting tends to be pretty illegal, and while you can usually smooth things over with a bribe or two in China, you don't want to be one of the poor saps they make an example of when they're trying to demonstrate their anti-corruption stance.
Synthing a non-controlled substance in your medium-scale lab, though? Nobody in China cares. And when that non-controlled O-DSMT is also significantly more potent than the controlled version, that's basically a win-win... just not enough to be anywhere as attractive as U-47700 or the fentanyl analogues.

Also, which "tropane analogs" are you talking about? You mean dichloropane and troparil? The only (recreational) tropane analogue that was actually "brought to legitimate market" is cocaine, unless you are talking about small amounts of investigational tropane-based SNDRI's being tested on monkeys... but I doubt anyone could afford to use these recreationally if people had to divert them from Sigma-Aldrich or Caymanchem. Not sure tropanes are a good example though, since even the ones that made it to the RC market involved extremely hard-to-source precursors, and were thus way too expensive to be a major success.

And sure, they're usually going to go with compounds that have already been described in the literature to some extent, but that doesn't mean they necessarily have to be "diverted" from somewhere. Where would the Chinese have gotten all that mephedrone from? I'm not aware of this stuff actually being used clinically, but somehow people managed to flood Europe's drug markets with huge amounts of it at dirt-cheap prices.

Give the Chinese some credit... if they can pull off the synth for acetildenafil (the unregulated sildenafil analogue they put into all those "herbal" male enhancement supplements), they can sure as hell do O-DSMT.
 
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I noticed that my freeware sketch prog "calculates" log P for tram -> nortram as 2.6 -> 1.9
It ranks codeine -> morphine -> heroin as 1.2 -> 0.4 -> 1.5

Just odd how much contribution that hydroxyl supposedly gives, and that tramadol is 10x more lipophilic than heroin. Meanwhile buprenorphine at 3.4 drops to 2.5 with N-dealkylation. And that is enough to keep it out of your brain.

Because all this has more to do with Pgp substrates than anything, apparently. But I still believe there's a catch, or else they'd be marketing nortramadol.

Etizolam too, is already a pharmaceutical, not a research chemical. No one cooked it up in their garage, they took it off the floor of the plant after bribing who they had to. And saying pharma didn't bother to bring it to market because of saturation just shows you that if they thought fucking tramadol was worth it, desmethyltram must be a dud. You even require your customers have a functional CYP2D6 for the conversion, when they could just sell the 2x as long-lived as hydrocodone with t1/2 of 6-8hrs, nortram--unless its a dud with no penetrance or the source of seizures.

Thing with China is they have rather insanely severe drug laws, left over from the Opium Wars. None of this due process, just a bullet in your brain, and a bill to your family, when they put analog laws in place. I would much rather be an industrious good Chinese bribing people the way Mao intended, then a RC chemist for a chemical enemy of the people.

For one thing, the only evidence is product and cash, not purchase orders, facilities, glass ware, smoke, dead fish outside, occasional explosions.

Oh, and the Chinese have nukes, I don't underestimate the country's o-chem synth ability, just their wasting it on nortramadol.
 
I learned that plain old tramadol is more complex than O DT. That makes total sense because of the fact that ODT is just the main metabolite of tramadol. Also I do not think that it is just the SNRI effect that causes people to "feel good" on the combination of the two. I do not think that it can be the serotonin aspect of the SNRI that causes the "feel good" part because I have been on an SSRI and it does not make me feel any better on suboxone. I know that SSRIs take like 2 weeks to feel any effects if any whatsoever. I just read that SNRIs are the same way in that they take about 4-6 weeks to take full effect. So somebody taking tramadol with suboxone is most likely experiencing something other than that SNRI effect. Maybe there is something that causes you to feel the effects of tramadol through the suboxone barrier. I wish somebody could actually scientifically research this phenomena to determine why this occurs. I want to experience it for myself to see if it actually does occur because it is such a curiosity to me considering the fact that I have tried to do dope after taking a sub and I haven't felt anything at all. Little tramadol somehow makes you feel good although comparatively mighty heroin does not. I do not know the binding affinity of tramadol or buprenorphine but I can almost guarantee you that buprenorphine's affinity is higher. There lies the mystery. What is the mechanism by which people are feeling good off of the combination? I am not a pharmacologist (obviously) but this is the way that I am sizing up that situation.

I hope someone out there can help me shed light on whether or not it is even worth getting ODT to use with subs or if I should instead attempt to find tramadol. I already know that tramadol is scheduled here in the US which is just a huge pain in the ass.

I've read that "tramadol" attaches itself to different receptors than the other opiates.. some don't even consider tramadol to be an opioid drug for that reason, so it's possible for you to feel the pain-relieving effects of tramadol while on suboxone because they will be attaching to different receptors.. I have never tried the combo myself, though. If you are wanting to start with a lower dose, try getting tramacets or Ultram?? I think is the name? Ultracet? (tramadol 37.5 mg + acetaminophen 325 mg). You could even chop them in half for a starting dose of 18.75 mg of tramadol in order to avoid risk of seizures.. then work your way up until your satisfied with the feeling.. But of course, remember not to exceed 1000 mg of acetaminophen in 1 hour and not 3000 mg within 24 hours (you could go up to 4000 mg, but I wouldn't) to protect your liver. As for the odt, I know nothing, but the others here seem to have a really good understanding of it!!
 
Etizolam too, is already a pharmaceutical, not a research chemical.

I think you misunderstood me: Etizolam is being sold as a pharmaceutical prescription drug in Japan, but in the West it is sold freely as an RC because it is more or less unregulated, since no one ever bothered to get FDA approval for it.

Does that mean Etizolam is clearly garbage compared to the benzos used in the West, because otherwise they would have brought it to the market as a legit pharmaceutical over here as well? Or does it just imply that the market for a short-acting anxiolytic benzo was already saturated, mostly by alprazolam, so it just didn't seem worthwhile?

No one cooked it up in their garage, they took it off the floor of the plant after bribing who they had to.

I'm pretty sure you can find medium-scale chemical labs that will be able to cheaply synth all kinds of stuff for you. There are options beyond "garage meth lab" and "bribing people to steal from a pharmaceutical company".
I mean... RC vendors have to constantly introduce new stuff due to their most popular products getting banned. While there is of course lots and lots of mislabeling going on, I don't think they can just rely on products diverted from pharm companies.

Thing with China is they have rather insanely severe drug laws, left over from the Opium Wars. None of this due process, just a bullet in your brain, and a bill to your family, when they put analog laws in place. I would much rather be an industrious good Chinese bribing people the way Mao intended, then a RC chemist for a chemical enemy of the people.

That didn't stop them from synthing shitloads of cathinones and phenidates though, so for the time being it seems like you can get away pretty easily with making large quantities of RC's as long as they're not explicitly banned in China, especially if you're only manufacturing them for export.
 
And saying pharma didn't bother to bring it to market because of saturation just shows you that if they thought fucking tramadol was worth it, desmethyltram must be a dud. You even require your customers have a functional CYP2D6 for the conversion, when they could just sell the 2x as long-lived as hydrocodone with t1/2 of 6-8hrs, nortram--unless its a dud with no penetrance or the source of seizures.

Just because a drug isn't available in a specific location that doesn't necessarily mean it is completely worthless. Hydrocodone has, to my knowledge, not been available as a prescription medication in Germany for decades, whereas tilidine is beloved by German addicts yet virtually unknown across the pond.
And tramadol's main selling point wasn't its ability to get people high, it was the lower abuse liability when compared to other opioids. And CYP2D6 inhibition probably wasn't considered an issue for most patients back in the day.

Now, I am by no means saying that O-DSMT is a great - or perhaps even a "good" - opioid, but that doesn't imply that it wouldn't even be worth synthesizing for half a pittance by a bunch of Chinese sweatshop chemists.
 
fent and loxapine said:
I've read that "tramadol" attaches itself to different receptors than the other opiates.. some don't even consider tramadol to be an opioid drug for that reason, so it's possible for you to feel the pain-relieving effects of tramadol while on suboxone because they will be attaching to different receptors..

Tramadol has a lot of brain targets, including the serotonin transporter. So does methadone. In fact, they all have slightly different preferences for different brain parts, and sometimes a non-recreational drug can potentiate a recreational one. So there could still be pain-killing benefit to adding tramadol, but it would be a kind you could get much easier and safer in a different drug.

hold the door said:
I think you misunderstood me: Etizolam is being sold as a pharmaceutical prescription drug in Japan, but in the West it is sold freely as an RC because it is more or less unregulated, since no one ever bothered to get FDA approval for it.

I understood you fine--etizolam is what got me thinking about drug diversion way back when. Etizolam is an approved pharmaceutical with a massive base of human clinical studies supporting it. It's just not approved in the United States.

That's not something that screams "research chemical" in a descriptive sense.

But so ok, people online will sell it to Americans as an "RC". Am I to believe you think it's all made from-scratch in clandestine labs here in the USA? Possibly after a proposal and quotes from a "legitimate" lab (with lawyers and insurance premiums and EPA inspections and orthodontics benefits for researcher's kids). Or is it just imported?

I could write many moar words on this, but should probably hold off. I'm also not knocking a vast industry; but I think most people would recognize that humans will always take the shortest way to a dollar, and con men will follow.
 
Scrofula said:
I understood you fine--etizolam is what got me thinking about drug diversion way back when. Etizolam is an approved pharmaceutical with a massive base of human clinical studies supporting it. It's just not approved in the United States.

That's not something that screams "research chemical" in a descriptive sense.

Well yeah, "bath salts" ain't for bathing, "liquid incense" ain't for making your room smell nice, and "herbal male enhancement supplements" are just synthetic PDE5 inhibitors sprayed on inert plant material ;)

But so ok, people online will sell it to Americans as an "RC". Am I to believe you think it's all made from-scratch in clandestine labs here in the USA? Possibly after a proposal and quotes from a "legitimate" lab (with lawyers and insurance premiums and EPA inspections and orthodontics benefits for researcher's kids). Or is it just imported?

It is being imported, sorry if I didn't make that clearer.

Now, I am not denying that diversion of legitimate meds is always a possibility, but that doesn't explain all the designer benzos that have appeared on the market in recent years - like Clonazolam, Flubromazolam, Deschloro-Etizolam, Flubromazepam, Flunitrazolam and Diclazepam, just to name a few.

And even if we were only talking about Etizolam - if you're already in the RC import/export business, might it not be easier to just have the guy who's already synthing your cathinones and cannabinoids to do a batch of Etizolam, instead of having to wine, dine & bribe a foreman in a legitimate pharmaceutical plant to "misplace" a few kilos of Etizolam?

And, again, about O-Desmethyl-Tramadol - if it really were just mislabeled Tramadol, then how could people actually find it *stronger* than plain Tramadol? There is always a chance that it might just be a heavily cut fentanyl analogue, but actual tramadol? Remember, we are talking about a substance people buy as a powder and weigh out themselves, not pills that are just labeled "50 mg".
 
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Research chemical, to me, implies something that hasn't gone through clinical trials, that you can't get from your GP if you just moved over a border. I don't care what the Florida press calls it, or dark net vendors. And you can't deny that a lot of stuff for sale online is literally bath salts. And any PDE5 inhibitor sprayed on grass clippings will be diverted Viagara, not illicit chem almost-Viagara.

We all know cops and customs will immediately let you go when they realize the shipment of powder and pills is not on the controlled substance list, taking your word for things.

Sorry, I think you keep missing my point. First, you don't need to "wine and dine" executives at a pharm plant, just the grunts who load the shit. Or, you know, be the grunt who loads the shit. Or the many, many, grunts involved at the stage where it gets unloaded at, or enroute to, the hospital.

You don't have a person synthing cathinones already. You have someone importing prolintane. Someone diverts alprazolam and simply sells it as isobutyro-hexatrifluoro-alprazolam, for the first 30 online customers, raising his rep cause hey, it knocked them right out, one dies (unrelated), then you sell a bunch of Benadryl, then literal bath salt, then you start another alt and do it again.

People can't tell the difference between substances in the same drug class from each other, most of the time. 80% of their experience is based on expectations. If you tell them their benzo is "euphoric" they'll describe it in those terms, even if they never felt it. "Not as euphoric as I expected," not, "I didn't feel anything, then fell asleep."

Made enough money to put a good dent in your student loans, no need to figure out how to buy laboratory glassware as an individual without getting on a list.

The only thing that makes me think there is a single actual RC on the market anywhere in the world, is the presence of fentanyl analogues in the blood of dead people, that is not a metabolite of fentanyl, and tox screens of the occasional phenethylamine. I'll grant that in those cases some individual could reasonably create single-substitutions, but from scratch? Doesn't happen.

So, if you want to change my mind, I'd need evidence, and simply saying "this powder here is pure flubroisoquinolino-purine-pyramidine-anilopiperidino-cathino-benzo-fentanyl" won't do it.

And of course, solicitation is against the rules here at Bluelight.
 
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