Opioids Dilaudid | Hydromorphone Withdrawals - Duration?

[LotusExige]

All,

I'm going through my third attempt to stop using Dilaudid/Hydromorphone. This last time I was taking (IV) about 40mg daily and spent 5 days tapering down (to about 16mg on the last day spaced all day). While the withdrawals haven't been as bad as in the past I'm at day 9 and still feeling really awful. Not sleeping much at all, hands shake constantly and I'm either freezing or sweating my brains out (usually both). Fortunately no RLS but I've had that badly in the past. I've done 2 inpatient detox programs, one was really hard but great care the second wasn't as hard but the care was just awful.

The only thing I have access to right now is standard OTC stuff as I don't want to ask my doc for anything right now. So a fair bit of lope (abut 40mg once or twice a day) and Ambien for sleep which helps but not much. Sadly my chronic pain is back (reason I'm on them in the first place) so I'm trying all the alternatives I can for that.

How much longer do you think I can expect these feelings to continue, meaning the shaking hands and hot/cold flashes? Something that I'm going to have to deal with long term or just a little more time? I really want to stop but know that when I see my doc later this week if I still feel this way I'm going to be weak and get more just so I can feel "normal" again. Ugh, I hate this train.

I'm reading the Diluadid/Hydromorphone withdrawals are good as they are strong but short lived - well how short is short? Shouldn't I be past the worst of it by now? I certainly don't feel that way...

Any input is greatly welcomed.

EDIT: One thing I forgot that I have been taking is Kratom powder/extract. I've found what I believe to be a great vendor but so far I've had a really hard time choking the stuff down. It does seem to help so I bought a capsule filling machine so I can try to make/take them that way. That arrives tomorrow so we'll see.

 

[StigmaShadow]

I would imagine the withdrawals aren't very long lived, just like the high.

 

[mostly-human]

^ Yeah, no personal experience but the intuitive expectation is maybe 3 days of acute WD, followed by a period of PAWS - which is always hard to figure.

No RLS is fantastic, hope that sticks - that is pretty much the worst symptom of WD for me, I mean - no being able to sleep because you're freezing in a pool of your own sweat is not pleasant.. but.. RLS is just soul-destroying. And if you tell people that haven't experienced it, it just sounds weak 'like oh yeah, so your legs a bit restless eh?' - you can't really convey the soul-crushing nightmare that is RLS.

Sorry, just re-read, that you're at day-9. Have you been taking OTC opiates or something? I don't think you should still be experiencing acute WD at day-9. So maybe someone with hydromorphone experience can step in. Though, I know sometimes when I come off smack, I can go a good couple weeks of waking up in cold sweat at 4-5am and having to 'start my day' like that. Normally during that late stage though I'm mostly alright during the day, it's just nights and early mornings. But nothing unmanageable.

 

[LotusExige]

Thanks for the input guys - as you know just sharing stories with those that understand helps a lot mentally. As for what I've been taking no, the last real opiate I took was 9 days ago (maybe 8.5) and while I have taken some Kratom almost every day it seems to do very very little to me. I can't take much of it as I just can't stand it no matter what way I try - have found mixing with OJ and chugging is about the only way I can get it down. I order a capsule making machine so I can take what I understand to be very high quality powder and make my own pills from it. That'll be here tomorrow.

As for RLS you couldn't be more right - the first time I did an in-patient detox days 4-6 were just hell with the RLS. I'll say I never understood it either until going through it. There is almost nothing worse that being utterly exhausted yet feeling like you just have to run, just have to move or you're going to jump out of your skin. I suppose the Kratom and Loperamide did help with that since I had almost none of it. My issue now is I just feel like shit all the time - utterly exhausted but can't sleep, feel like a walking zombie. It's that more than anything that keeps making me want to go back to the little white devils. I see my pain specialist in 4 days and I'm really going to try to not get another script. While my pain is pretty bad I don't want to go through this again - I wish I could be in a place to get 30 a month and truly take them as needed. That said I think if I do get 30 I'll suck them down in 3 days and be back in hell for another 10+

I just don't understand why I still feel so awful, shakey, can't concentrate, and almost can't see straight. I keep staring at my computer and I swear it's all moving around and my eyes just won't stay still. Ugh - is that the dreaded PAWS I've heard of? While I've been physically dependent for a long time I've never considered myself an addict - that perception of myself is slowly changing.....

 

[mostly-human]

Yeah, RLS is the worst. I never appreciated the horror of it either until I underwent it myself. I don't know much about Kratom, does it act on the same receptors as opioids? If so, that is probably why you're still in withdrawals, you have to cut out ALL opiods/opiates and anything that acts on those receptors, even strong doses of Loperamide would probably drag it out a little, though I think reasonable doses are a pretty good idea, generally speaking.

 

[TheRapperGoneBad]

I got to six days from a daily dilly habit before I folded cause the withdrawls were still in full affect.
I've been on done since on a taper.

Stay strong and keep going.

RLS is pretty bad I get it in my arms as well.

 

[mostly-human]

RLS is pretty bad I get it in my arms as well.

Yeah me too. Though not as often as the legs - I find it worse in the arms.

I got to six days from a daily dilly habit before I folded cause the withdrawls were still in full affect.
I've been on done since on a taper.

That's intense, so yourself and OP obviously experienced extended WD.. I thought being such a short acting drug, the acute WD stage would be 'relatively' short. Anyone know why this causes such an extended period of WD?

 

[LotusExige]

Well here's the OP again and while I'm doing better I'm still feeling like crap. No energy but can't sleep - basically feel like I have the flu (which I suppose is possible). Just to see today I took what I think is a huge amount of Kratom, basically all I could stomach and I definitely got some sedation for about an hour. Felt ok for about 3-4 hours but after 2 hours in front of my XBox I feel like someone just sucked all the energy from me - and I've done little today to cause that.

Fortunately my pain - reason for the dilaudid in the first place - has been much more manageable lately. While I think I'm going to get another script for it I am going to get less this time. 120 2 months ago, 90 last month and am going to go for 60 next. Going to try and not take it more than 48 hours in a row, every say 6 hours at most to see if I can get to a manageable state. Chronic pain really is a tough thing isn't it??

 

[dirzted]

40mg of lope?!!!! Dude that is absolutely useless, you only need a little bit more than the recommended dosage, anything over that is pointless, if nothing else harmful.

 

[LotusExige]

Really? I'd been reading guys taking 80-120mg which is why I tried 40. I did have, uh, side effects if you get my drift. So are you saying more like 10mg? Was only doing it to help withdrawal, not trying to "get" anything from it.

 

[Kid Amine]

9 days is way longer than my normal Dilaudid w/d - usually day one sucks, days 2 and 3 awful (EXTREME TIME DILATION, hot/cold flashes, waking up in a POOL of sweat, etc), by day 4 Im better, and by day 9 im fine, and that was doing considerable amounts (100+mg/day). If you can procure a single 8mg suboxone/subutex, you can probably make it last 5-10 days (I do 2,2,1,1,0.5,0.5, 0.25mg (x4)) and you wont become addicted to the subs whilst simultaneously making the rest of your w/d substantially less sucky. If you've devoted any real amount of time getting high (calling around, scoring drugs, getting high/nodding, etc), you'll need to find something else to fill that time.

 

[LotusExige]

Just a quick update from me, the OP. Today is day 10 and while I'm feeling better - no RLS, cold sweats are almost gone - I still have a splitting headache (very rare for me) and am very shakey. In some ways I feel like I haven't eaten but I have - in fact I've been eating very healthy lately. Lots of fresh chicken, veggies, good protien, milk, etc. Don't usually do breakfast but I've done that the last few days to see if it would give me some energy and no. I'm just exhausted all the time still and find myself constantly thinking "how do I feel? I feel like shit. I feel ok. I feel shakey". I just want to feel normal. I'm also having a terrible time concentrating and typing on my computer (work in tech so I type all day). I'm usually 100+ wpp when I type but I'm making so many mistakes it's taking me twice as long to type this message.

Given my pain is back and forth I'm going to get a small script when I see my doc on Friday - 60 instead of 120/180 - and start logging how I feel each day to see what patterns I can discern. My hope was that with something so short acting that I wouldn't have long term issues like this going off them. Right now though my day-to-day is definitely worse without them so I'm gonna see how I am again with them (which I'm sure will be better for many reasons). By the time I get a script again it will have been 15 days since taking any so we'll see.

Any further thoughts or experiences are very welcome - thanks to those of you who have taken the time to reply.

 

[AgonyAndEcstasy781]

Well first of all if you're still taking large doses of kratom and loperamide tyen you aren't actually allowing your receptors to return to a state of normality and are still partially dependent on opiate agonists. Continuining to tinker with your opiate receptors is probably interfering with the ability of your brain to return to normal.

If you really wanna get back to normal I'd cut out the kratom, it can be addictive in and of itself. Id switch to the loperamide at 20-30 mg per day and taper down by 2 mg each day. It's not true that there's no benefit to taking large doses of loperamide, taking the recommended amount won't do shit for most opiate withdrawal symptoms, and whatever people wanna say about the blood-brain barrier, it does a lot more than simply ease GI symptoms when taken in large doses. I've even caught a dirty-ass buzz off of massive doses.

If the withdrawals are still unbearable, I would order a small amount of phenibut and start taking 1-2 grams per day. This will remove anxiety and allow you to sleep for sure. It also doesnt fuck with your opiate receptors so it will allow them to heal. Its important that you also taper off this wuicly as it can cause a nasty dependence on its own. I'm surprised more people don't use phenibut for opiate withdrawal, its a miracle drug for all the symptoms, I got off methadone after 3 years at the clinic at 170 mg and couldnt have done it without this dirt cheap, legal, and easily available aubstance.

Edit: just saw that you're getting morr dilaudid - out of curiosity what makes you think you won't go down the same route of binge IV use again? It's very hard to return to responsible use after runs like that. What are your reasons that you say make you sure this time will be different?

What are you trying to do? I thought you said you were trying to stop using the opiates? If you are having CP issues but also struggling with binge use or addiction then instant-release hydromorphone is probably not your best option...

 

[LotusExige]

First thanks for the continued input - I've not heard of phenibut but will look into it. As for my goal - well my goal is to feel good and healthy, period. If I can do that with no opiates, or nothing at all then great - but at the end of the day I have a life to live and want to get back to living it. So my goal isn't necessarily to stop all opiate use - and let me be clear while I was using large amounts (for most people) of dilaudid I wasn't - at least in the last few months, binge taking it. Rarely do I take more than persecribed as I learned long ago I'm just screwing myself at the end. Yes, I tried IV use to see what the rush would be like but it was so much more effective for me than oral that I continued. I don't really have issued with morality around IV use and have always been as responsible as I can there (using saline solution, always fresh needles, etc. etc). No micron filter so yes I'm bad there. As I have realized that I can't do that the rest of my life - at least not at a regular level that's why I stopped this time. I'd like to be to a place where I can use it when I need it and that's it. Maybe I'm kidding myself (probably) that I can do that - we'll see. I did attend an NA meeting recently and will admit I did NOT feel like I "fit". Again maybe I'm just fooling myself but let's say I was the only guy that rolled up dressed the way I do driving the $100k car I drive. Clearly social conventions don't mean shit when it comes to things like addiction but either way I just didn't feel right being there.

Anyway I think you're probably right about the Kratom and think I will taper that down starting today. I've never gotten any enjoyment from it, in fact I hate the stuff as it just tastes awful. But as I just hate the withdrawal symptoms, and haven't had many I scared myself into taking it. With my CP doc I've tried several of the long acting things, mainly Exalgo (Hydro ER) and thought it sucked. Even at a 32mg dose it didn't do shit for either my pain or withdrawal, I'm convinced there's something about those tabs that just doesn't let the med out, period. As for getting "high" my drug of choice there is absolutely marijuana as that's the only thing I've ever really enjoyed recreationally (fortunately I'm not a drinker at all).

Seeing another specialist today to see if we can find the root of my pain - keep your fingers crossed for me there, if I can fix myself I could stop everything. Well but pot, I enjoy that too much.

 

[AgonyAndEcstasy781]

I see. Definitely a tough spot you're in having to deal with the pain. It's great that you recognize that IV use, no matter how effective it is, is unsustainable long-term. After 10 years of injecting opiates I barely have any working veins left.

In regards to AA/NA, many people find that they don't fit in there. It's hard to find good meetings and the most important part is a good sponsor to.take you through the 12 steps, but to be honest you don't sound like you fit the mold of somebody that really needs meetings right now.

It sounds like you're just in kind of a jam with the pain and the opiates are drawing you in, as they tend to do even to the most disciplined people. I think if you can effectively treat your pain and give up the needle you'll be fine.

Not that there is anything inherently wrong with IV drug use, but it's unsustainable long-term, especially for pain, and it gets the best of even the strongest people eventually. Also, your tolerance will shoot uo far too quickly. Hydromorphone is absorbed FAR more effectively intravenously compared to orally, that's why it's so much more effective, the problem is after periods of IV use it will be difficult to achieve any relief at all taken orally, it will spoil the drug entirely for you which could be disastrous if you need it for pain relief.

Phenibut will indeed help enormously with the withdrawals and especially the insomnia.

 

[LotusExige]

I see. Definitely a tough spot you're in having to deal with the pain. It's great that you recognize that IV use, no matter how effective it is, is unsustainable long-term. After 10 years of injecting opiates I barely have any working veins left.

Yeah, this is the place I don't want to be. After my first few weeks of not knowing what I was doing I had already screwed up all the veins in my hands/wrists. I wouldn't go for the elbow as that felt too "real" somehow. I then tried it and found it far easier and got far better at it - basically I stopped stabbing myself and learned to use a new needle every single time it breaks the skin. Needles are cheap, veins aren't. That said I realized that I'm still young and can't do this for 10-20-30 years - something has to give and I have to stop at some point.

In regards to AA/NA, many people find that they don't fit in there. It's hard to find good meetings and the most important part is a good sponsor to.take you through the 12 steps, but to be honest you don't sound like you fit the mold of somebody that really needs meetings right now.

Interesting comments. I did like one of the main guys that were at the few meetings I went to but after having such a bad taste about it I just didn't go back. I'm not religious at all so that part really rubs me wrong. In talking with a close friend about it I asked him about "wronging" people and he didn't think I'd done that at all. Withdrawn, yes but I've never stolen or hurt anyone. All my "medicine" is prescribed and while I have run out early a times generally that's not an issue either. That said I know it sounds very "addict" to say things like this so I really try not to. I'll make ya a deal that I'll find another group and try another meeting or two.

It sounds like you're just in kind of a jam with the pain and the opiates are drawing you in, as they tend to do even to the most disciplined people. I think if you can effectively treat your pain and give up the needle you'll be fine.

God that is so my goal. While yes, I definitely enjoy recreational drug use and have no moral issues with it my recent activity, as said before is unsustainable. I saw another specialist today and have 2 more next week so I really am trying to find the root cause again. After having 11 speciailsts in different fields look at me and say "uh, I have no clue" it's pretty tough.

Not that there is anything inherently wrong with IV drug use, but it's unsustainable long-term, especially for pain, and it gets the best of even the strongest people eventually. Also, your tolerance will shoot uo far too quickly. Hydromorphone is absorbed FAR more effectively intravenously compared to orally, that's why it's so much more effective, the problem is after periods of IV use it will be difficult to achieve any relief at all taken orally, it will spoil the drug entirely for you which could be disastrous if you need it for pain relief.

Phenibut will indeed help enormously with the withdrawals and especially the insomnia.

Agreed all around - I definitely tried it once as I was curious about the rush and when I found that it was soooo much more effective that way I just got hooked. Fortunately no needle fixation as I really dread that part. Been 12 days no and I have no desire to touch a needle - I just desire my pain to go away. Or at least that's what I think and am telling myself. I'll see your previous comment on a meeting again as I know I have an addictive personality. I'm the guy that doesn't go half ass - I go full ass all the way as deep as I can when I get into something (meaning my hobbies). I can't let that guy come out here any longer.

Back to my OP - I'm at day 12 and still feel like shit but think due to my body being so weak I've come down with a common cold. Stuffy head, sore throat, no energy, headache, etc. That on top of withdrawal and my pain is making life pretty damn hard right now. I see my pain speciailist on Friday and keep going back and forth between wanting nothing and a fucking huge ass bottle. Ugh, so torn as chronic pain really is a bitch.

 

[JustADudeYep]

I recently quit cold turkey from dilaudid and morphine sulfate and it was horrible! Actually it is still bad because I still feel shitty and it has been about a month. The kicker is that I actually ended up giving in on day 7 and asked my doc just for lower doses, but still feel cruddy. I gave in more because of the mental effects. I didnt sleep for days and was hallucinating and would think of ways to commit suicide. It freaked me out too much. The body pain and hot/cold crap etc also were horrible, but the mental stuff got me.

Perhaps try weening down and trying to switch to Butran as well. I am trying that now. I have medical issues but the opiates ruin your ability to get excited and be i nterested in things...long term use, that is. I'm tired of the damn depression but this stuff is hard to kick! I was on pain meds for 14 years until my dumbass decided to try and IV dilaudid. I first did it like 7 months ago and it's a nightmare of a ride to try and quit. Stay strong though! It will be great when youre off of it!

 

[LotusExige]

Oh are you so right about the lack of excitement and desire to do anything. I've been dealing with depression at the same time and feel I'm in a total catch 22 - if I don't take my pain meds things hurt so badly I can't do anything and certainly don't want to but when I do take them I just want to lay in bed and enjoy not being in pain. That said for the most part I do more when I am taking my meds as I physically can. While that's tough mentally when the pain is bad (and it is right now - I can barely look at my laptop to type this) it's the #1 most powerful thing in my life as it's front and center all the time.

A quick comment about the Kratom. I did order/get a capsule machine so I could try taking it that way as I just hate choking the stuff down. Well after spending the last 10 minutes yaking into the toilet after laying in bed with insane nausea for the last hour I think I'm done with it too. Fortunately I found some Regelin in the cabinet so I just took one of them to see if it'll calm my stomach down as I just hate nausea. Its just such a helpless feeling that I know some of you can relate to. At this point I really don't want to start the dilaudid again but I just feel like I don't have any choice. I have tried a few other things in the past from fent patches to spray (subsys) and while that helped I hated all the little capsule/dispenser things the subsys came in. I felt like the drug addicts in Minority Report who were sucking down those futuristic things. Just don't know what else to do. Sorry, now I'm just bitching...

 

[JustADudeYep]

My deal was I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease at age 11. I was misdiagnosed for over two years so I had severe Crohn's disease. despite growing up with Crohn's and being in a lot of pain I never so much as took tylenol. then when I turned age 22 I was in and out of the emergency room basically every other week. I was insanely sick. then one time I happen to get a female doctor and she asked me what I take for pain and I told her that I have never taken as much as even tylenol while growing up. She then asked me, "Well what about when you're in the hospital, what do you take for pain? I told her that I have never taken any pain medication in my life. She replied youve had Crohn's disease for 11 years and never taken any pain medication?!" So once again I told her that I've never taken anything, not even tylenol, and she was amazed. So what does she do? She orders me some IV morphine and then sends me home on a script for vicodin. The IV morphine made me totally euphoric. Anyway, that is how it all started as far as my pain med issues go. vicodin led to oxycodone, and eventually oxycodone led to dilaudid. THEN I'd start getting IV dilaudid when I was hospitalized, and that stuff put me in heaven! It was unreal. Well that led to my tolerance to go up and up and up and up until it got to a crazy point. for the last 5 years, everytime I've gone in the hospital, the doctors and nurses can't or don't believe the amount of IV dilaudid that I have to take to get any relief. It almost always turns into a big to do / argument. It has become something I dread to deal with when I go into the hospital. That is another reason that I want to get off of it. I would need about 6 or 7 milligrams of IV dilaudid per hour to get any relief, and I'm a sickly 124 lbs male. . . (6'0" feet tall). so they don't understand how my body can take such high doses and still function totally fine. BUT all it took was that lady ER Doctor to start me on a vicodin script at age 22 and it ended up sending me down the opiate road of hell. But I never ever abused that shit until just this year. . .14 years down the line. Unreal. I had to have a PICC line put in and sent home on home health care. Well, I was depressed as hell, soooo bored, hurting so bad, and I got the brilliant idea of, "Hey, I have hundreds of sterile saline flushes, I have dilaudid pills, and I have a direct line in my huge vein so I won't even have to stick myself. Screw it. I hurting so I am ONLY going to try injecting a few times!" Long story short, PICC got infected with Staph and I got super sick. They pulled my PICC and I came clean to the docs about injecting into it. I swear to them I was done with that stupid shit, and I really did mean it! But a month down the road I am at home, depressed, hurting like hell and go the needle route. Wish I had never even tried that. My arm veins are so screwed. I also got busted by my family and I felt like a piece of shit. . .yet I still do it once again. I hate the damn catch 22 that you spoke about!! I have the same exact situation.

 

[JustADudeYep]

BTW Lotus, if pain meds help you then don't feel bad about taking them. Just work toward not abusing them. My family act as if I am a strung out drug addict because I was on pain meds. We got into big arguments. The meds are sooo demonized by the media, but Ive been on crazy antibiotics that did NASTY things to me! So it is all meds. All have bad side effects. If you have depression then you treat it with meds. The same as having pain...treat with meds. So dont let people make you feel shitty. Just find a good happy medium.