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US Events Derek Chauvin trial and police using excessive or lethal force

dalpat077

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How many times have I told you I don't give a fuck? ;)
Well good morning to you too! 🤣

Was wondering how long it'd take you to show up this morning!

Don't worry. I'm getting to that same stage and very fast too. You can take at least half of my "epiphany post" on my Russian thread and throw it down the toilet! Didn't take long huh! :)
 

dalpat077

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Now that's the exact reason I wanted you to reply. Very well said and most of what you said is true. Of course it's racially biased. The cops are fed up with the black population resisting arrest in their founded, and unfounded, fears that the cops are going to either kill them by gunshot or other means. They are sick of the drugs and the crimes that go along with it. They are sick of the many many man hours of arrests only to see them back out in a few days. And I also believe Floyd should in fact have been restrained. He had a warrant and had just had an altercation in Cup Foods so they wanted to arrest him.

I was born in 1958. Grew up in Virginia ( navy brat ) and my Mom and Dad were both racist. The N word. The whole 9 yards. Luckily my best friend in 8th grade was black so I was able to form my own opinions. Do I have racist thoughts? Of course I do. Parents do that. But color ( to me ) does not matter in this case. I saw a man. Not a black man. Being forcefully restrained by a CHAUVINistic cop long after the man was unconscious and had no pulse. And with almost a freakin' smirk on his face. Absolute disregard for life and I want him to be guilty of total disregard. I know he didn't mean to kill him ( hence no 1st degree being charged) but the man has to answer for what he allowed his emotions to do.
Hey.

Nice post.

As noted: started responding to you last night but it got a bit late to complete.

Didn't realize you were slightly older than me. So whether or not you agree with my take on things: you're at least in a position to understand where I'm coming from. And I suppose it goes without saying that being a white South African: my formative years were not too dissimilar when it comes to race issues. Sadly: old habits and indoctrination during your formative years die hard though. That said and as a direct result of my interacting on these forums: I have definitely come a long way. At least insofar as the race issues is concerned anyway. Of course: seeing the race issues in other countries has helped tremendously too!

Why the above? In these cases I no longer see a black man acting up. My first reaction isn't any longer "serves you right you fucking [insert racial slur here]". In this particular case: I saw a big, fit, hulking, well built dude, acting up even before any shit started, giving the police officers shit, and, well, we know the rest.

Why bother to mention the above? Point is: in these cases there's reverse racism applied and a massive overreach. But that will be denied and/or swept under the carpet and good officers will continue to be thrown under the bus. And if you ask me: that's all worse than being overtly racist. And I put it to you that the longer this carries on: the longer it's going to take for things to come right over there. It's almost as if America still has to learn what most South Africans have already learned (unfortunately it just took somebody like me a little longer) (if not too long).

Unfortunately though: I've seen it purported by some very clever and intelligent people that this is just something that has to happen i.e. go from one to extreme to the other and eventually settle somewhere in the middle. And it has been noted for at least a decade that there will come a time where so-called white Americans will no longer be the majority. They will be the largest group. But no longer the majority. And America will have a hard time dealing with that or coming to terms with that. But it's something that will have to be dealt with. It's just a question of how long it takes and what the cost. Do you really want a decade or two of this shit before settling (type of thing)? That's the question. Trust me when I say it's an utter waste of time and energy.

I'm afraid we do differ ever so slightly on the second paragraph of your response though (some of it anyway). I don't quite place such an emphasis on the sanctity of human life (of any color) (or anything else for that matter) in quite the same way as most around these parts it would seem. And I don't believe that all human beings are created equal and have equal value (again: regardless of color) (and again: or anything else for that matter). Case in point: I see a convicted felon, with a checkered and violent past (to put it mildly), giving police officers shit. One thing led to another. And at least one decorated police officer is now, in all probability, going to pay the price. To be fair: Officer Chauvin has had his issues in the past (based only on what I've been able to read about him of course). But I'd be keen to see how many times he'd been put out there on the line during his service and served the public well (not talking here of the few records and incidents, nor commendations, that made the news or Wikipedia i.e. overall during his years of service). As for society being to blame, or blaming themselves (seen here on this very thread) for where George Floyd eventually ended up: well there's some truth to that. But I'd say it's misguided. Look to your politicians. Mind you (and just an observation): Rep. Barney Frank (D) once noted that politicians don't parachute into The Dome i.e. they're elected.
 

dalpat077

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This comment intrigues me, but its opacity confounds me. To what lesson are you referring?
Must admit: I'm trying to make a point, and thought I had it nailed last night, but this morning I'm not quite getting there it would seem.

Not quite sure how to explain in a different way (without going way off topic anyway I'm guessing).

Point is (trying again): coming from me it's quite something that I no longer perceive these incidents (whether here or over there) as being racially motivated. I would be saying the same thing NOW no matter what color any of the players were. In other words and in MY NOW world: this wouldn't have even made the news. This very different to a) what's happening over there and b) how I would have perceived things not that long ago now. Put another way: over here I don't feel sorry for my fellow countryman of the same race as I am that gets nailed by a black police officer after said fellow countryman has taken the piss with said police officer. It wasn't that long ago that I would have cried foul based on race alone and ignored what actually went down (or, unfortunately, be misled by sensationalist and very specially crafted and tailored media reports) or saw everything through rose colored (white) spectacles.

Does that explain a little better? If not: feel free to ask and I'll try do better.
 

birdup.snaildown

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@dalpat077

My problem with your attitude is: the police can't tell the difference between an autistic person and a neurotypical person, nor can they tell if someone's father just died or if they're schizophrenic. What might be perceived as "taking the piss" could be someone being a cunt to cops for no reason... or, more likely, it could be a sign that there is an underlying issue.

I posted a while back on this thread about my experiences being assaulted by Australian police officers. Don't know if you read it. To recap: I always felt guilty about it and felt like I deserved it to some extent because I was a fucking mess at the time and I wasn't being particularly co-operative or respectful.

After the George Floyd incident, I reflected on this and decided that it wasn't my fault.

Being a police officer is a hard job. You can't justify killing a man because they're being an asshole any more than a man can justify beating his wife because she's being a bitch. Death isn't a reasonable punishment for disobedience or disorderly conduct... Easier said than done, when you're putting your life on the line every day. If I was a police officer in the US, I'd probably have killed somebody by now.

You can take at least half of my "epiphany post" on my Russian thread and throw it down the toilet! Didn't take long huh!

I'm not surprised. People don't change overnight. You're on the path to change, I think, but there is always a dance. Two steps forward. One step back. Kind of like how people break up - then get back together - and break up again.

I have faith in you.
 

cduggles

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Must admit: I'm trying to make a point, and thought I had it nailed last night, but this morning I'm not quite getting there it would seem.

Not quite sure how to explain in a different way (without going way off topic anyway I'm guessing).

Point is (trying again): coming from me it's quite something that I no longer perceive these incidents (whether here or over there) as being racially motivated. I would be saying the same thing NOW no matter what color any of the players were. In other words and in MY NOW world: this wouldn't have even made the news. This very different to a) what's happening over there and b) how I would have perceived things not that long ago now. Put another way: over here I don't feel sorry for my fellow countryman of the same race as I am that gets nailed by a black police officer after said fellow countryman has taken the piss with said police officer. It wasn't that long ago that I would have cried foul based on race alone and ignored what actually went down (or, unfortunately, be misled by sensationalist and very specially crafted and tailored media reports) or saw everything through rose colored (white) spectacles.

Does that explain a little better? If not: feel free to ask and I'll try do better.
I appreciate your clarification. 🙂
 

birdup.snaildown

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Disclaimer: I'm assuming a bunch of shit based on the quotation marks around the word accidental.

Deru said:
an "accidental" discharge

Curious. In a population of over 300 million people how many times do you think legitimate accidental discharges should reasonably occur in a year / decade / century?

I don't think Chauvin intended to kill Floyd and I don't think Potter intended to kill Wright either. As @dalpat077 said, it makes no sense. They know (bare minimum) they are going to lose their jobs if they kill someone... and, beyond that, their lives will be destroyed by the MSM and they will have to go to court and they might go to jail.
 

dalpat077

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My problem with your attitude is: the police can't tell the difference between an autistic person and a neurotypical person, nor can they tell if someone's father just died or if they're schizophrenic. What might be perceived as "taking the piss" could be someone being a cunt to cops for no reason... or, more likely, it could be a sign that there is an underlying issue.
Well. I put it to you that it's a judgment call under abnormal circumstances. Assuming there's an underlying issue: at what point does that get addressed and how long should it take before a course of action is decided upon? How is an officer to know, at that point in time, exactly what's going on especially when you're dealing with somebody as fit and as well built as Mr. Floyd?

It depends on how far you want to analyze this by examining just the other incidents that have been posted on here as reference points.


I posted a while back on this thread about my experiences being assaulted by Australian police officers. Don't know if you read it. To recap: I always felt guilty about it and felt like I deserved it to some extent because I was a fucking mess at the time and I wasn't being particularly co-operative or respectful.
Of course I read it. Truth and full disclosure: I wanted to ask but because it was you involved I didn't (what can I say: I have a small heart and tend to be protective over those close to me even when they talk shit)! :love:

But you've answered the question now (as indicated in bold above).

I'm not saying that you should feel guilty about it. But at face value: you were not simply standing around minding your own business or sitting on the pavement having a cigarette and surveying the scenery about you?

In your case: excessive force used? Dunno. I wasn't there. Ask the officers involved for their body cams and I'll make that judgment! 🤣 🇷🇺


Being a police officer is a hard job. You can't justify killing a man because they're being an asshole any more than a man can justify beating his wife because she's being a bitch. Death isn't a reasonable punishment for disobedience or disorderly conduct.
Nah, nah, nah. This one isn't going to fly with me.

You're not putting yourself in the position of the officers concerned. Even under perfect circumstances i.e. no rioting and looting and racial discourse as the backdrop.

Some random dude is being an asshole (love how the fucking spell check accepts that word) and behaving erratically. Maybe that's all there is to it (under the influence for example and nothing more). But how is the officer supposed to know that? How is the officer supposed to know that the next erratic action isn't going to be the suspect pulling out a firearm? Or that the suspect isn't going to get back into his car (as happened in this latest case) and use the car to ram the officers? Or that the suspect isn't going to drive off and ram into somebody else?

Case in point: that army lieutenant now suing the Virginia PD. It's a good example because there was no erratic behavior involved. But look at how it all went down? The MEDIA saw the temporary plate after the fact. But in the dark and with tinted windows: those officers couldn't have seen the temporary plate. All they saw was a vehicle, driving slow, and with no plates. Ordered the dude to get out of his vehicle. He wouldn't budge. After how many "polite" requests? And still refused even when the officer had a gun right at his head (just about). And the officer knew at that point that he was a REAL lieutenant (those uniforms can be bought anywhere)? And the officer knew at that point that the dude didn't have a weapon lying right between his thighs and that could be his next move? Nah. That dude is just lucky he only got peppered sprayed. And I mean REAL fucking lucky. Personal opinion is that his only saving grace was that it appears that the officer was older and probably had a lot more experience in dealing with these matters. Also: different state, different climate, different backdrop, who knows.


'm not surprised. People don't change overnight. You're on the path to change, I think, but there is always a dance. Two steps forward. One step back. Kind of like how people break up - then get back together - and break up again.
Yeah well. Maybe you're right. Not reversed my newfound racial understanding nor my understanding and acceptance on certain issues when it comes sexual identity (but which doesn't go as far as YOUR wearing fishnet stockings I'm afraid! 🤣 ). But don't get me started on global politics. My newfound understanding of, or insight into, global politics will make me very unpopular here.


I have faith in you.
Yeah. I love you too! :love:
 

Deru

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What's sickening to me in the second video

The first video of a 20 year old kid getting a bullet in his chest is pretty sickening to me.

I just can't understand how, even in those adrenaline filled moments, a 25-year veteran police officer could mistake having her taser for her service weapon .
 

dalpat077

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The officer claims she thought she used her taser instead of her service weapon. The chief of police framed it as an “accidental discharge”.
For the sake of my own interest (and at the risk of shooting myself in the foot here) (no pun intended):

Anybody know EXACTLY the make and model of her service weapon?

Never mind. Doesn't matter i.e. all the officers were already ready to fire before approaching the vehicle.
 
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birdup.snaildown

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dalpat077 said:
How is an officer to know, at that point in time, exactly what's going on especially when you're dealing with somebody as fit and as well built as Mr. Floyd?

Couple of problems with that.

1) He's tall.
2) He's statistically likely to be taller if he's black.
3) His hands were cuffed behind his back and there were four armed officers present.

Well. I put it to you that it's a judgment call under abnormal circumstances.

If you had my job, you would understand that it is impossible to tell sometimes when people have disabilities. Police officers are not sufficiently trained to diagnose neurological/ psychological/ intellectual disorders via telepathy.

They don't know what is going on in the person's life.

If there is a threat, then restraining him in a brutal way makes sense.

There was no threat.

dalpat077 said:
In your case: excessive force used? Dunno.

It's much easier to assume that police brutality doesn't exist when you've never been physically abused by police officers.

dalpat077 said:
How is the officer supposed to know that the next erratic action isn't going to be the suspect pulling out a firearm?

In this case, he was handcuffed.
 

Deru

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For the sake of my own interest (and at the risk of shooting myself in the foot here) (no pun intended):

Anybody know EXACTLY the make and model of her service weapon?

The NY Times wrote a good article about this. I’m not sure if the link will work because it requires a subscription, but I’ll try to post it here:




Article here: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/13/us/daunte-wright-taser-gun.html
 

Buzz Lightbeer

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The officer claims she thought she used her taser instead of her service weapon. The chief of police framed it as an “accidental discharge”.

Horrible video, but tbh, it does really seem like it was accidental no? The reaction afterwards etc.... Don't see it as framing, am I alone in this?
It'll probably be the same thing, 2nd/3rd degree manslaughter/murder trial.
 

dalpat077

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The NY Times wrote a good article about this. I’m not sure if the link will work because it requires a subscription, but I’ll try to post it here:




Article here: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/13/us/daunte-wright-taser-gun.html
Thanks for that.

I'd already edited my post but decided to leave it there so as to avoid confusion.

I was trying to figure out how she could have made such a mistake IF she had to ready her firearm on the fly type of thing. But that was done before they even approached the vehicle so far as I can tell. Was also looking to see if she'd removed her right hand after, I assume, holstering her now ready firearm. But she did. And your article cleared up some other questions I had too.

I truly don't think she meant for this to happen either. But I can see a prosecutor having a field day with the video evidence. And if you watch the video a few times: every time you watch it then it feels as though she had longer and longer to see that she didn't have a (yellow) taser in her hand. Difficult one this. But then as I've just noted: I wasn't there and under those panicky circumstances. And at this point: know nothing about her or her track record or experience.

Try as I might though: I always come back to the same thing. The dude was already out of the car. Why get back in? Why? As a direct result of some fucked up notion (based on who knows what) that he was going to get back into that vehicle and outrun the Minneapolis PD just look now at how many lives have been fucked up now and for good at that.
 

MsDiz

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It’s pretty crazy reading a thread where people are arguing that the police officer who killed the person he detained was not at fault. He very clearly was at fault and it doesn’t matter if the guy he detained had killed 10 people. It’s not his job to dole out punishment, it’s his job to bring someone in to face a trial and justice. He failed and he killed a person. He should feel the full force of the law.

No one has the right to kill anyone.

The only people who have guns in Ireland are paramilitaries and even they know how to aim a gun at someone’s arm/leg ffs. How hard can it be to train cops in America? What kind of idiots make the cut? Clearly way too many.

That latest shooting where she says “shit I shot him” holy sweet fuck! She killed a person, accident or not.

What a fucked up country. Kinda glad the only idiots hurting themselves here are kids with petrol bombs.
 

Deru

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Horrible video, but tbh, it does really seem like it was accidental no? The reaction afterwards etc.... Don't see it as framing, am I alone in this?

I honestly was somewhat hesitant, initially, to lean one way or another. The main sticking point for me is the difference between the taser and the service weapon. And, obviously, the insanely (unlucky?) coincidental timing and vacinity to where the Floyd incident happened and where the Chauvin trial is happening.
 

dalpat077

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Couple of problems with that.

1) He's tall.
2) He's statistically likely to be taller if he's black.
3) His hands were cuffed behind his back and there were four armed officers present.
Listen up. Agreed on all. Could it have been handled differently? For sure. I can tell you that if that same thing, as an example, had played out here: Mr. Floyd would have gotten a good beating across the ear hole and thrown in the back of a van and that would have been the end of it. But I'm guessing that over there even that would be frowned upon. Therefore he had to be restrained until he'd calmed down. And calm down he did let's face it! But why the long drawn out drama on that day? Dunno. Training? PC? Who knows. At one point he was in the back of the SUV not? Why they didn't just bang the door shut on him and leave it at that I'll also not understand. Well mind you: I'm guessing over there they'd be in shit if he had hit his head or his foot got caught in the door.

But Officer Chauvin did not intend to kill this individual for reasons already stated. And unless he personally tells me otherwise: that's it.


If you had my job, you would understand that it is impossible to tell sometimes when people have disabilities. Police officers are not sufficiently trained to diagnose neurological/ psychological/ intellectual disorders via telepathy.
Correct again. And if I may just add: they're police officers not social workers! 🤣


If there is a threat, then restraining him in a brutal way makes sense.

There was no threat.
Well Mr. Floyd, and the way he was carrying on, I personally would perceive as a threat (notwithstanding all of the factors that you've already noted above).


It's much easier to assume that police brutality doesn't exist when you've never been physically abused by police officers.
Well that's also true. Tell you what: if it ever happens to me I'll let you know. You shall be the first I promise!

Maybe a good point (this is why we discuss things)! Would I get away with the same shit in America that I've gotten away with here over the years? Simply by being good looking and a wonderful and personable and friendly person? :cool: I'm guessing: nope! This said: would I give an American cop shit? Hell no. Certainly not AFTER I'm ALREADY in custody that's for damn sure. MAYBE (with a capital "M") with a decent car and well under the influence I'd act like an idiot and try outrun them. Then again: probably not i.e. been in that situation more than once here and the thought never even crossed my mind. "Oh fuck" is all that crossed my mind on said occasions! 🤣


In this case, he was handcuffed.
Had he been able to get up and run off in cuffs: he wouldn't have been the first and he wouldn't have been the last. Moot point. I don't think any police officers are trained to cuff somebody and then just leave them to their own devices.
 
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birdup.snaildown

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dalpat077 said:
I don't think any police officers are trained to cuff somebody and then just leave them to their own devices.

Come on, man. Be fair here. There's a big difference between leaving someone to run away and kneeling on their fucking neck for nearly 10 minutes.

But say he runs away.
There are four cops with guns.
He has his hands behind his back.
Where the fuck is he running?
 

dalpat077

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It’s pretty crazy reading a thread where people are arguing that the police officer who killed the person he detained was not at fault. He very clearly was at fault and it doesn’t matter if the guy he detained had killed 10 people. It’s not his job to dole out punishment, it’s his job to bring someone in to face a trial and justice. He failed and he killed a person. He should feel the full force of the law.
You're assuming intent in this case. Which there wasn't.


No one has the right to kill anyone.
I wish somebody would explain this notion to me. Because I don't get it. Not a blanket statement like that.
 
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