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US Events Derek Chauvin trial and police using excessive or lethal force

dalpat077

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Oct 14, 2019
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You're making assumptions here too. Let's examine...

Is there criminal intent? This is two questions Did he mean to commit the act? Is that act criminal? Note: He doesn't need to be aware the act is criminal, he just needs to know he's committing an act - this is an important distinction. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but ignorance of ones actions is, so one cannot be convicted of an act committed while sleepwalking for example (unless the crime is one which specifically excludes a requirement for intent).

Anyway, I think most people are in agreement that the requirement for criminal intent is satisfied. He knows he is engaged in the act of kneeling on the man's neck. His supervisors and training officers have all testified that it is not a trained or approved restraint technique and that it was applied beyond what would be reasonable, implying that he engaged in the criminal activity of assaulting, not legally restraining, the suspect.

Anyway, you have three basic levels of criminal intent. The highest level, malice aforethought, which is where someone intends to kill someone. You then have specific intent where someone intends a certain outcome from their criminal act - kneecapping someone might be an example of this, the crime is more serious because the assault with a weapon is intended to create a certain injury. Then you have general intent where the person acts intentionally without desire to create a certain result. All three are criminal intent, unless specifically stated in the statutes.

Basically it all boils down to this, he didn't need to intend to kill him to establish general intent. Criminal intent at the most basic level refers just to the act, not the outcome or desired outcome of the act. Just knowingly engaging in that act is sufficient evidence of intent. The case is even clearer in this example because general intent does not need to be inferred. The communication recorded on camera between the officers makes clear that he is aware he is committing the act.
Very nice post. And thanks for the clear information.

And I should refrain from using what could be misconstrued as legal phrases or terms from which it could be mistakenly inferred that I have legal knowledge and experience.

I have a feeling somehow that you do indeed have have legal knowledge and experience (confirmation optional).

This is what the law is for though (stating the obvious) i.e. to provide such unambiguous definitions. And will of course be instrumental in determining the outcome. There’s no getting away from that.

Do I think that Officer Chauvin intended to kill Mr. Floyd? No I don’t. But that’s just my thinking or belief. And as you have so nicely explained: that doesn’t mean that he didn’t have intent (criminal or other) as defined by law.

For the sake of pure interest though I would like to hear directly from the defendant, truth or no, why he held the suspect down for that long and what, in his mind, was the next step had things not gone awry.

Thanks again. Nicely done and well presented.
 

Pumpkin2021

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Is anyone here following this LIVE seeing the same things I am. The prosecutor ( Schleicher ) is shredding the defense witnesses with his crosses. He is questioning people 3 times longer than the defense did and is rebutting everything the witnesses say. He is relentless and the witnesses are showing their discomfort. And there have been zero objections from Nelson. This guy is fierce. My opinion but Chauvin will not be able to withstand this guys tactics.
 

dalpat077

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Oct 14, 2019
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Is anyone here following this LIVE seeing the same things I am. The prosecutor ( Schleicher ) is shredding the defense witnesses with his crosses. He is questioning people 3 times longer than the defense did and is rebutting everything the witnesses say. He is relentless and the witnesses are showing their discomfort. And there have been zero objections from Nelson. This guy is fierce. My opinion but Chauvin will not be able to withstand this guys tactics.
Not watching I’m afraid. My thing done and now bedtime. Somebody did mention to me in passing an hour or two ago though that there’s one or two (fake news?) videos floating around purporting that he may get an acquittal. Could be click bait as I’ve not seen them. But immediately thought of something you noted earlier and reinforced now i.e. could the defence deliberately throw a trial in order to hope for a retrial? Is that allowed? What’s the legality?
 

Pumpkin2021

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Not watching I’m afraid. My thing done and now bedtime. Somebody did mention to me in passing an hour or two ago though that there’s one or two (fake news?) videos floating around purporting that he may get an acquittal. Could be click bait as I’ve not seen them. But immediately thought of something you noted earlier and reinforced now i.e. could the defence deliberately throw a trial in order to hope for a retrial? Is that allowed? What’s the legality?
Good night to you in South Africa. An acquittal is certainly possible ( not from what I have seen ) . The jury has to follow the law and only deliberate on the witnesses they saw from the stand. The prosecution has to prove everything they have charged. And they are...so far.

I was being facetious about the ineffectiveness of council, but now I'm not so sure. It's not that Nelson is a crappy lawyer ( I don't know maybe he is ) but the prosecution is excellent. They are on point, direct, and asking some excellent questions on their cross. Nelson pales in comparison.

Good night. Sweet dreams.
 

Zephyn

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Oct 31, 2020
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Fuck this trial. Lets just start farming plantations for all the cops and force them to grow food for us, force some of them to learn to code, study biology, etc, Nd live free off their labor. Yhis guy will be the postervhild for our new program
 

Zephyn

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Ooh, I bet they'd love stocking a warehouse with sunglasses imported from China and designated by model number
 

dalpat077

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Oct 14, 2019
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Good morning everyone. How's things?

Here's my first shot (no pun intended) for today. YouTube algorithm now on point of course i.e. now sending me suggestions of just about every police officer involved shooting in recent times hence this only being suggested to me this very morning.

Note this happened on 4 February 2021 and footage was released on or around 10 April 2021. I mention this because aside from noting that it's not something that happened yesterday: you think details of this were not known by just about every officer on the force by the end of that day? And who knows how many other incidents there have been. Point being: you think this doesn't play into the psyche of police officers while going about their daily routines?

Anyway. This not at night, situation all very casual and calm, no force at all used, police officer could not have been more a gentleman if he tried, and just look at what happened and just how quickly it happened! Alright: at least this fucker got what was coming to him (shown toward the end of the video).

That Army Lt. in Virginia should be kissing that officer's shoes and sending him gifts. Not suing the PD! And in just thinking this morning about all of this: when did civil suits against law enforcement become a thing anyway? Especially in a case where the officer ends up being convicted? In just checking this morning: I see good 'ol Botham Jean's family have now been given the go-ahead (December 2020) (second attempt) to sue the Dallas PD (again: anybody even remember Officer Amber Guyger or give a shit)? No matter what happens to Officer Chauvin: wanna bet me Mr. Floyd's family don't cash out on this big time? And the good Lt. there. And the list goes on I'm sure (tempted to include Breonna Taylor's $12M USD settlement but that'll open up a whole new hornets nest I suppose).

And in other news: Officer Kim Potter and Chief Tim Gannon resigned from their positions yesterday following the fatal shooting of HRH Daunte Wright. And that's obviously just the beginning of their (well her at very least) nightmare.

Anybody keeping score here?

 

dalpat077

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Joined
Oct 14, 2019
Messages
1,463
Fuck this trial. Lets just start farming plantations for all the cops and force them to grow food for us, force some of them to learn to code, study biology, etc, Nd live free off their labor. Yhis guy will be the postervhild for our new program

Ooh, I bet they'd love stocking a warehouse with sunglasses imported from China and designated by model number
Alright. We get it. Well I get it. I've been through this thread. And I've read about your situation and that of your friend(s).

For the sake of my own interest though (and no you don't have to answer):

When those incidents occurred you, and your friend(s), were casually strolling down the street and minding your business right? And then what happened?
 
Last edited:

dalpat077

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Joined
Oct 14, 2019
Messages
1,463
Good night. Sweet dreams.
That was nice of you. Only saw it this morning obviously! :) As you can see though: I'm on a roll this morning! :ROFLMAO:


Let's not forget too that the real test in this case may be more likely to be decided on appeal. The question of qualified immunity.
Again. Thanks. At least we have some guidance here (as opposed to groping around in the dark in typical armchair lawyer fashion).
 

Pumpkin2021

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Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
666
Location
Michigan
Very nice post. And thanks for the clear information.

And I should refrain from using what could be misconstrued as legal phrases or terms from which it could be mistakenly inferred that I have legal knowledge and experience.

I have a feeling somehow that you do indeed have have legal knowledge and experience (confirmation optional).

This is what the law is for though (stating the obvious) i.e. to provide such unambiguous definitions. And will of course be instrumental in determining the outcome. There’s no getting away from that.

Do I think that Officer Chauvin intended to kill Mr. Floyd? No I don’t. But that’s just my thinking or belief. And as you have so nicely explained: that doesn’t mean that he didn’t have intent (criminal or other) as defined by law.

For the sake of pure interest though I would like to hear directly from the defendant, truth or no, why he held the suspect down for that long and what, in his mind, was the next step had things not gone awry.

Thanks again. Nicely done and well presented.
I also want to very much hear from Chauvin. Without his testimony we have no idea of his state of mind at the time. I always want to hear from the defendant but of course we hardly ever do as in almost every trial I have ever watched the defendant buckles under cross examination and most lawyers advise against their client doing so.
 

Pumpkin2021

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Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
666
Location
Michigan
Good morning everyone. How's things?

Here's my first shot (no pun intended) for today. YouTube algorithm now on point of course i.e. now sending me suggestions of just about every police officer involved shooting in recent times hence this only being suggested to me this very morning.

Note this happened on 4 February 2021 and footage was released on or around 10 April 2021. I mention this because aside from noting that it's not something that happened yesterday: you think details of this were not known by just about every officer on the force by the end of that day? And who knows how many other incidents there have been. Point being: you think this doesn't play into the psyche of police officers while going about their daily routines?

Anyway. This not at night, situation all very casual and calm, no force at all used, police officer could not have been more a gentleman if he tried, and just look at what happened and just how quickly it happened! Alright: at least this fucker got what was coming to him (shown toward the end of the video).

That Army Lt. in Virginia should be kissing that officer's shoes and sending him gifts. Not suing the PD! And in just thinking this morning about all of this: when did civil suits against law enforcement become a thing anyway? Especially in a case where the officer ends up being convicted? In just checking this morning: I see good 'ol Botham Jean's family have now been given the go-ahead (December 2020) (second attempt) to sue the Dallas PD (again: anybody even remember Officer Amber Guyger or give a shit)? No matter what happens to Officer Chauvin: wanna bet me Mr. Floyd's family don't cash out on this big time? And the good Lt. there. And the list goes on I'm sure (tempted to include Breonna Taylor's $12M USD settlement but that'll open up a whole new hornets nest I suppose).

And in other news: Officer Kim Potter and Chief Tim Gannon resigned from their positions yesterday following the fatal shooting of HRH Daunte Wright. And that's obviously just the beginning of their (well her at very least) nightmare.

Anybody keeping score here?

The City of Minneapolis has already given the Floyd family mega millions of dollars. The settlement came in 10 days BEFORE the trial and all the jurors went through a vigorous voir dire to see if they could still be impartial.

So far every victim that I know about ( lately ) of a fatal police shooting their family has received a very large settlement. Amber Guyger hung herself when she took the stand. She was a horrible witness. They had some good reasonable doubt going on until she got on the stand. Defendants are their own worst enemy.
 

dalpat077

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I also want to very much hear from Chauvin. Without his testimony we have no idea of his state of mind at the time. I always want to hear from the defendant but of course we hardly ever do as in almost every trial I have ever watched the defendant buckles under cross examination and most lawyers advise against their client doing so.
Good morning.

Funny you should mention the above. Amber Guyger actually took the stand. And it was gut wrenching to watch.
 

dalpat077

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The City of Minneapolis has already given the Floyd family mega millions of dollars. The settlement came in 10 days BEFORE the trial and all the jurors went through a vigorous voir dire to see if they could still be impartial.

So far every victim that I know about ( lately ) of a fatal police shooting their family has received a very large settlement. Amber Guyger hung herself when she took the stand. She was a horrible witness. They had some good reasonable doubt going on until she got on the stand. Defendants are their own worst enemy.
We were over typing each other (obviously). Sorry about that.

Well. There you go. Didn't know they'd already given the family a couple of million. That settles that then (no pun intended as usual). This of course in addition to that which I do know about (have read about anyway) i.e. the donations made by the public and the statues/monuments (which, as I understand it, the latter paid for by the city)?

And don't laugh. That Amber Guyger trial got to me I'm afraid. To the extent where I even tracked her down in the system and found out what the rules are of sending money to inmates and corresponding with them. But then I hit the wall financially not too long after she'd been incarcerated so it didn't materialize (and I'm guessing this post is going to make me ever so popular but fuck it). Fortunately for this site: I never knew about the site back then! :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: Or rather: was a member but wasn't posting (still shy of this site back then! :unsure: )! I would have gone on a crusade of note!
 

Pumpkin2021

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Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
666
Location
Michigan
We were over typing each other (obviously). Sorry about that.

Well. There you go. Didn't know they'd already given the family a couple of million. That settles that then (no pun intended as usual). This of course in addition to that which I do know about (have read about anyway) i.e. the donations made by the public and the statues/monuments (which, as I understand it, the latter paid for by the city)?

And don't laugh. That Amber Guyger trial got to me I'm afraid. To the extent where I even tracked her down in the system and found out what the rules are of sending money to inmates and corresponding with them. But then I hit the wall financially not too long after she'd been incarcerated so it didn't materialize (and I'm guessing this post is going to make me ever so popular but fuck it). Fortunately for this site: I never knew about the site back then! :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: Or rather: was a member but wasn't posting (still shy of this site back then! :unsure: )! I would have gone on a crusade of note!
I think it was quite admirable to try and help her. She was very believable and the circumstances surrounding her case were believable. Coming off of a long shift to an apartment complex that had identical looking floors and parking spaces. Pretty easy to get confused in the dark, When she had to admit to the prosecution that she did nothing to save his life she was doomed. No CPR and her med kit in her bag was untouched. She lost the sympathy of the jury. She let Botham bleed out while she worried about losing her job. Her panic in the moment was her undoing.
 

dalpat077

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Oct 14, 2019
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1,463
I think it was quite admirable to try and help her. She was very believable and the circumstances surrounding her case were believable. Coming off of a long shift to an apartment complex that had identical looking floors and parking spaces. Pretty easy to get confused in the dark, When she had to admit to the prosecution that she did nothing to save his life she was doomed. No CPR and her med kit in her bag was untouched. She lost the sympathy of the jury. She let Botham bleed out while she worried about losing her job. Her panic in the moment was her undoing.
Sadly you are 100% correct on all.

Must admit I check from time to time to see if she's at least going to get released on parole or something. Doesn't change anything though. She literally grew up wanting to be a police officer. Those days are forever gone for her.

In her case: his family were forgiving and understood (so it appeared to be at the time anyway). She should have been given another shot at life. They would still have gotten their money I'm sure (and in that case and given that it truly was accidental well, maybe, there is merit in that i.e. Botham Jean was, let's face it, pretty much minding his own business and not resisting arrest or getting up to mischief) (as is the case with this choice individual that's the topic of this thread).

I think I realize that attorneys and prosecutors have to do whatever it is necessary to obtain their desired outcome. But in her case: what in the hell difference did it make whether she was having an affair with her partner beforehand? That to me was distasteful. Mind you. I suppose if I was her lawyer there'd be no lengths I wouldn't have gone to either so there is that of course.

And yeah. Must admit I was pleasantly surprised to see that Joe Public, from anywhere in the world, can contribute to inmates. There's a particular company that specializes in it (name doesn't come to mind now but I'm pretty sure it's bookmarked somewhere here). Didn't see too much point in corresponding with her though. Not only would she probably think I'm just some nut. But pretty sure she has her share of fan mail! :ROFLMAO: Well I hope so anyway.
 

Pumpkin2021

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Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
666
Location
Michigan
Sadly you are 100% correct on all.

Must admit I check from time to time to see if she's at least going to get released on parole or something. Doesn't change anything though. She literally grew up wanting to be a police officer. Those days are forever gone for her.

In her case: his family were forgiving and understood (so it appeared to be at the time anyway). She should have been given another shot at life. They would still have gotten their money I'm sure (and in that case and given that it truly was accidental well, maybe, there is merit in that i.e. Botham Jean was, let's face it, pretty much minding his own business and not resisting arrest or getting up to mischief) (as is the case with this choice individual that's the topic of this thread).

I think I realize that attorneys and prosecutors have to do whatever it is necessary to obtain their desired outcome. But in her case: what in the hell difference did it make whether she was having an affair with her partner beforehand? That to me was distasteful. Mind you. I suppose if I was her lawyer there'd be no lengths I wouldn't have gone to either so there is that of course.

And yeah. Must admit I was pleasantly surprised to see that Joe Public, from anywhere in the world, can contribute to inmates. There's a particular company that specializes in it (name doesn't come to mind now but I'm pretty sure it's bookmarked somewhere here). Didn't see too much point in corresponding with her though. Not only would she probably think I'm just some nut. But pretty sure she has her share of fan mail! :ROFLMAO: Well I hope so anyway.
Shes the only defendant I ever saw a judge hug after the proceedings. It was obvious she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Her actions didn't convict her. It was her reactions. I'm pretty sure she will be getting out well before her 10 years is up. She got 10 right? She is very young and beautiful and will go on to have a productive life I hope. And you are right. Her sex life should have been inadmissable. The fact that she was sexting her boyfriend right before the incident only showed that she COULD have been sidetracked. Not that she was. That's why I think it might have gone better for her had she not testified. There was plenty of reasonable doubt.

Unlike the Chauvin trial I think he has no choice but to explain himself because up to this point I don't think the jury has any doubt that he was totally reckless in his actions. We shall see.
 

dalpat077

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Shes the only defendant I ever saw a judge hug after the proceedings. It was obvious she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Her actions didn't convict her. It was her reactions. I'm pretty sure she will be getting out well before her 10 years is up. She got 10 right? She is very young and beautiful and will go on to have a productive life I hope. And you are right. Her sex life should have been inadmissable. The fact that she was sexting her boyfriend right before the incident only showed that she COULD have been sidetracked. Not that she was. That's why I think it might have gone better for her had she not testified. There was plenty of reasonable doubt.

Unlike the Chauvin trial I think he has no choice but to explain himself because up to this point I don't think the jury has any doubt that he was totally reckless in his actions. We shall see.
Nice post. Thanks.

Sorry. Over typing each other again! :)

Odd thing: I remember at the time I was staying in a complex and all of the units were identical from the outside. And without a word of a lie: at around that time I remember going to the store and coming home and standing outside my neighbors door wondering why the damn key wouldn't fit in the door! And that was broad daylight, not under the influence, and the only thing on my mind was getting the shopping bags inside! And that's not including the few times I've stood next to a vehicle, identical to mine, trying to open the darn thing, only to realize that my car was parked a few parking spaces away! And no: I'm not OLD (well I wasn't then anyway)! :ROFLMAO: To add: best part is my neighbor back then was cop! Only thought about that now. Thank fuck he wasn't home at the time come to think of it! 🤪
 
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