RCs Damage of mental sanity 'n' productivity after reckless usage of Butylone

[Tahmsonmahsah]

Posting this on the behalf of a friend:

"I took approximately 500 mg of butylone during the course of 5-6 hours, without feeling much more than a slightly increased ability to focus, occasional stupidity, emotional emptiness followed by a rather light burst of emphatic feelings, an extremely intense heartbeat, and a feeling of "strangeness" rather hard to conceptualize. I did NOT feel euphoric or energized in any way.

I have since then (5 days ago) experienced some strong after effects, including a weird "heavy" feel in the head, tiredness, a perceived intellectual slowness and extremely cold hands and feet. Being the neurotic person I am, I'm of course worrying that these are signs of permanent damage resulting from the rather high dose.

Do I have any justification in thinking so? It should be noted that my previous experience of central stimulantia is restricted to ritalin (from which I got approximately the same negligible effects). Is it even possible to experience permanent damage if one did not get anything even resembling a high? Note that I'm here only referring to mental and/or intellectual damage, not physical."

 

[arthunter888]

I feel sorry for your friend. That's a tough question, and I can't think of a definitive answer to it. The only way to know is time, if these symptoms persist over a long period you can bet there was some damage done. But if they don't persist that's a good sign, but still you can't be sure that there are un-emerged changes lurking. What I will advise however, is that your friend or anyone for that matter avoid research chemicals. Consuming research chemicals is like playing russian roulette: there has not been adequate clinical data collected, so you can never be sure how toxic those substances are.

What I want to emphasize here is that critical brain structures (e.g. neurons) are different than other bodily structures: they are not repaired/replaced as effectively or rapidly as other damaged body parts do. And to think that a simple chemical high that may last only a few hours has the potential to change/destroy brain structures/functioning PERMANENTLY: the risk-to-reward factor here is huge, and RC highs don't even touch the euphoria produced by illegal drugs. I would much rather consume illegal drugs than research chemicals, because that way I know the risks involved because plenty of clinical data exists.

After researching the conclusive neurotoxicity data, the only euphoric drugs I would feel safe consuming (in appropriate doses) are:

1) Cannabis (eaten or vaporized)
2) N,N-DMT
3) Opiates (hard to believe something this orgasmic lacks toxicity, but it certainly does!!)
4) LSD/psilocybin.
5) Cocaine (If I had to chose a stimulant... not considering cutting agents though)

Things I would certainly avoid are dissociative anesthetics (PCP, DXM), MDMA (Ecstacy, especially pills which are laced with RCs and other crap), stimulants, deleriants just to name a few.

However, if you MUST consume risky substances, take supplements like Omega-3 fish oil, Vitamin C, Vitamins D3 & B2, and multivitamins. These do a GREAT job at protecting/healing your brain--to an extent of course (I would take before, during, and after the effects). I would have your friend start taking these daily immediately, as they may help heal his brain a little, but don't expect a miracle if severe damage is done.

Be safe and remember, KEEP THE BRAIN IN GOOD SHAPE, it is your friend.

 

[Amberthefrog]

I would be very surprised if your friend has sustained any permanent damage from one dose of butylone. I've never heard of any such occurrence from it or any drug with similar pharmacology. I would imagine that within a couple of weeks (max) full recovery will be reached.

After researching the conclusive neurotoxicity data, the only euphoric drugs I would feel safe consuming (in appropriate doses) are:

Don't mean to sound rude but the neurotoxicity data you researched can't have been as conclusive as you believe, or more likely you misinterpreted it grossly. Your post started to look a bit far fetched when you said:

5) Cocaine

Things I would certainly avoid are dissociative anesthetics (PCP, DXM), MDMA (Ecstacy, especially pills which are laced with RCs and other crap), stimulants, deleriants just to name a few.

I would love to see this data that 'conclusively' shows cocaine to be less neurotoxic than DXM (no conclusive neurotoxicty proven at all...), MDMA (the data isn't conclusive either way but it's very hard to justify the opinion that MDMA is more dangerous than cocaine; it certainly isn't in terms of cardiotoxicity, addiction potential, risk of death etc), stimulants (What do you mean by this? Amphetamines? Look again and you will find fairly conclusive evidence saying the converse, amphetamines are considerably less neruotoxic (and cardiotoxic) than cocaine Ritaln? Wrong. MDPV? Wrong. Caffeine. Hmm. See where this is going?). For that matter I'm pretty sure deliriants, despite being very dangerous in other ways, are less neurotoxic than coke.

I know you're just trying to help the guy, but claiming that cocaine is conclusively the least neruotoxic stimulant going is ludicrous.

Also, I really think that taking D vitamins and multivitamins (which almost always contain D vitamins themselves) 'before during and after' is a pointless and unhealthy thing to do. Unless you can obtain said vitamins with very little in them per dose, your advise would constitute a vitamin D overdose, probably not harmful on one occasion but taking multiple times the rda of fat soluble vitamins isn't a good idea. It certainly won't 'help heal his brain a little', put it that way.

but don't expect a miracle if severe damage is done.

I think it's incredibly premature to even speculate that any damage is done, much less 'severe damage'. A dose of butylone that big could conceivably cause low serotonin levels for several days after, this in itself could be the cause of most of the symptoms your friend is having. The cold feet *could* be related to vasoconstriction, personally I doubt it would still be felt 5 days later unless your friend happens to use mephadrone regularly. If it is vasocontriction, it will subside soon.

I really can't see how any long term damage could have been done. It's true to say that we don't know the full workings of drugs like butylone. It's equally true to say however that we do have a fairly good idea about it's mode of action - theres no reason to believe that it would differ hugely from other serotoningenic/dopaminegenic empathogens, in which case I really don't see any avenue that would lead to any kind of lasting and obvious neruotoxicity from a single dose.

I'm pretty sure there isn't actually any conclusive data whatsoever on butylone nerotoxicity, however no recreationally used stimulant or empathogen I've ever heard of will cause enough neurological damage, from one dose, for the effects to be apparent long run. There are some pretty neurotoxic stimulants out there to; mephadrone, methamphet...cocaine to name a few.

Don't worry about it, if in a couple of weeks time things are still bad then it's time to worry, but I'd bet money on that not happening from the substance use described in your post alone. Multivitamins probably are a good idea, albeit don't take them more than once a day. Exercise, a healthy diet, plenty of sleep and 5-htp will probably all help. Omega 3 is actually a good call.

Peace, my best wishes on a quick recovery.

 

[arthunter888]

"I would be very surprised if your friend has sustained any permanent damage from one dose of butylone. I've never heard of any such occurrence from it or any drug with similar pharmacology."

^Sure it is unlikely from one dose, but if the dose is high enough it surely will do some damage (permanent or not). And that you have never heard of this happening is not adequate given that the data sample is very low since it is not widely used.

"Don't mean to sound rude but the neurotoxicity data you researched can't have been as conclusive as you believe, or more likely you misinterpreted it grossly. Your post started to look a bit far fetched when you said 5) Cocaine"


^Well, I haven't done much research at all on cocaine (I just wanted to throw a stimulant into the list as the OP regards one). I'm not saying cocaine is safe, but I would definitely choose it over amphetamines. I have done quality coke many times, and I have never felt as shitty on the comedown/days after as I have with Adderall (headache/pain, jittery, cramps, etc.). And cocaine's long history of human use furthers my comfort with it (as long as dose is appropriate). Cardiotoxicity, maybe, but neurotoxicity is a whole new ballgame, and by experience I don't believe it is worse than amphetamines on the brain (Have you ever seen the face of a meth-addict? Compare that to the face of a cocaine-addict--the difference is clear).

"I would love to see this data that 'conclusively' shows cocaine to be less neurotoxic than DXM (no conclusive neurotoxicty proven at all...), MDMA (the data isn't conclusive either way but it's very hard to justify the opinion that MDMA is more dangerous than cocaine; it certainly isn't in terms of cardiotoxicity, addiction potential, risk of death etc)"

^Hard to believe you're comparing DXM and MDMA to cocaine (in terms of neurotoxicity). Dissociative anesthetics are far from gentle. Most reports I have read on them say something like "Reaching anesthesia is extremely hard on the brain." And MDMA, jeez, do I even need to note that it is surely known to destroy serotonin receptors (I have done MDMA, and I am certain it largely effected my serotonin system). I have never heard of cocaine being more neurotoxic than DXM, MDMA, or Amphetamines. Again, the dangers of cocaine are related to physiological side effects, not neurotoxicity (for example mixing opiates and benzos is highly dangerous not because of direct brain damage but because of associated respiratory depression).

"Also, I really think that taking D vitamins and multivitamins (which almost always contain D vitamins themselves) 'before during and after' is a pointless and unhealthy thing to do. Unless you can obtain said vitamins with very little in them per dose, your advise would constitute a vitamin D overdose, probably not harmful on one occasion but taking multiple times the rda of fat soluble vitamins isn't a good idea. It certainly won't 'help heal his brain a little', put it that way."

^Taking a few extra doses of each of these listed vitamins on a occasional basis is far from a vitamin overdose. These supplements are known to be neuro-protective and to reduce the effects of free radicals in the body/brain. Maybe just a daily dose is enough for this, but I'd personally rather face the risk of extra vitamins than let a good dose of risky drug do what it will to the brain/body.

"I'm pretty sure there isn't actually any conclusive data whatsoever on butylone nerotoxicity"

^This is exactly my point. Some people say "It's okay because it hasn't been proven dangerous," and imply that this is equal to "It has been proven safe." This is a huge logical error, the former says "We DON'T know that it IS dangerous." The latter says, "We DO know that it IS NOT dangerous," the latter having much more certainty than the former. I will agree that a one time dose is not much too worry over (unless absurdly high dose), but don't take your chances regularly with drugs that have not been researched or drugs that have yielded negative findings with research.

 

[Albion]

I'm slightly dubious about the harmlessness of butylone too. I just had quite an intense experience on roughly 200-250mg and coming out of it I have visual disturbances, I feel fluey and my liver is aching. Going off research chems a tad...