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Could a forced opiate addiction/withdrawal be used as torture/get someone to talk

GetMeOutOfThisCRAP

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I remember someone's dad gave a user suboxone to force him to tell the truth as to whether he was using or not still.

When a junkie says "no" you know it's always "yes." But the precipitated withdrawal on sight says the words for us lol.
 

cdin

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I thought about this for a comic book i was writing and decided this is almost certainly already in play in cia/military ops. You could go way farther than that, you could hook up multiple bags of substances and their antagonists on separated pumps. you could fill someone with psychedelics and opes and bzds and bring them to paradise then slam them w flumazenil, naltrexone and anti-psychotics and repeat this, just wearing out all their receptors. string them out on Parnate or another super-potent MAOI and then do the rounds of agonists/antagonist.. Shit just give them cocaine repeatedly and then set them with the button an inch out of reach -- and that's just possibilities with off-the-shelf agents, not even specialized items made for intelligence operatives. etc. I never finished the script for the comic book, but this idea that you could torture someone much more thoroughly on a chemical basis than a physical one has always remained.
I know I for one would just look at the bags/iv lines and tell whomever whatever the fuck they wanted to know, immediately :lol:.

Then start thinking about "virtual imprisonment" and devices like Musk is making with the mindlink thing -- solitary confinement fo 1000 years in sped up virtual time, shit like that. I hope these kinds of tactics do not become standard for interrogation and imprisonment :(
 

Vastness

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Christ, this idea is horrific. Opiate withdrawal would potentiate the effectiveness of torture massively, of course, but if it's an either/or between actual, no holds barred, calculated physical torture and just withdrawing from opiates but otherwise sitting somewhere maybe unpleasant but relatively undisturbed... well, preferred choice is obvious.
 

dsd

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What do you guys think, when I was in my bad opiate phase I bet I woulda given up all kinds of information for a dose, not that I know anything anyone would particularly want to get out of me.
,
What if a spy got caught, was forced onto huge opiate doses and was only allowed to get more if information was given. You guys think that could be effective?
This must happen all the time. Wait until the suspect is starting to withdraw and then keep them hanging. I'm sure it works on loads. Lot of people in the junkie scene are scumbags anyway so ratting out is easy way out.
For a tenner half of them would as well.
 

cdin

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This must happen all the time. Wait until the suspect is starting to withdraw and then keep them hanging. I'm sure it works on loads. Lot of people in the junkie scene are scumbags anyway so ratting out is easy way out.
For a tenner half of them would as well.
right, but most intelligence agents arent already junkies, and setting up a habit over a week takes too long, hence the agonist/antagonist simultaneous route.
Only happened once and ive withdrawn from many other opioids. In fact i was once hit with narcan while addicted to 380mg/methadone a day. While that was horribly painful and i started instantly and uncontrollably shitting my pants 3 minutes after in the ambulance, i wasn't hallucinating or disoriented.

I would imagine that i had been on a desert isle and cold turkeying at that same dose of methadone i bet by day 6 I'd be hallucinating. Actually at 380mg a day of cold turkey methadone withdrawal may be strong enough to kill you. Methadone (at high doses) is one of the few opioids you can die from. Methadone withdrawal deaths have been recorded at as low as 200mg.

That one IV heroin high dose withdrawal i had was the only withdrawal i flat out tripped balls. One of the hardest trips of my life. It is full on out of body, almost like an extreme dissociative trip. Open eyed hallucinations but its of a very evil and oddly religious nature. It is of course combined with extreme physical discomfort. In a way it reminds of a salvia trip, which is both dissociative and pain.

Thus the craxy withdrawal scene in trainstopping actually can and does occur in heavy IV addicts who cold turkey.

My guess is that the heroin withdrawal induced psychotomimetic state is kappa opioid receptor mediated.
jesus . that is intense. I have experienced this type of WD from gabaergic agents(still not to that extreme, however). Glad you are with us @negrogesic, you are a great contributor.
 

LucidSDreamr

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Why not combine opi WD with the psych?

I was once withdrawing from heavy fent habit of smoking unlimited pure fent. My friend gave me 2CE thinking it was Etizolam.

So now I'm tripping nuts and in fent WD. Went to the ER I didn't even know why I was tripping till I came down in the ER on whatever they gave me I put 2 and 2 together
 

cdin

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Why not combine opi WD with the psych?

I was once withdrawing from heavy fent habit of smoking unlimited pure fent. My friend gave me 2CE thinking it was Etizolam.

So now I'm tripping nuts and in fent WD. Went to the ER I didn't even know why I was tripping till I came down in the ER on whatever they gave me I put 2 and 2 together
that's kinda what i was getting at. the psychs with the agonists AND the antagonists would basically be a living hell that even the hardest intelligence operative would have an extremely tough time resisting.
if it isn't already, i assume this or some variant will become the gold standard of field interrogation at some point in the future. Less physical damage/death risk, less difficult and definitely will make people talk,
I wonder though about the quality of intelligence gained from ANY kind of coercion. Anywho, interesting rabbit hole. I am 100% not into letter agency/fascist/totalitarian outlook, aesthetic or rhetoric so I will leave it there. :D
 

SnafuInTheVoid

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wow what if some evil man forced you into a massive dependence on opioids, benzos, meth, cocaine, dissos and alcohol all at the same time and then watched you suffer as he pulled the plug

unspeakable horror....
 

Pickledlemons

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50 mg of xanax a day? I probably would come to 2 months later with no memory of what had been going on the whole time.

I once took over one hundred xanax bars. I'm not even kidding. My girlfriend flushed all my opioids including like ounces of fentanyl and my subs, which at the time were my backup. I had been on a strong fentanyl bender for months and months, and I knew the nightmares that awaited me and since xanax was all I had I threw 10mg in my mouth and tried to sleep . Woke up 5 days later. I had 150 bars before blacking out, and when I woke up the bottle was empty. I found 30 or so lost in the couch, but the rest are unaccounted for. And considering I slept for 5 days and had very bad sleep paralysis, I am assuming I must have taken them. I remember being fully aware but being unable to move my body even an inch. I remember trying to scream for help but I couldn't move my mouth. Scary.

And to OP... I remember watching an very old episode of mission impossible where they did this. I imagine it could work.... but it would take a long time to build up a dependence bad enough to break someone. Could take 6 - 12 months. Maybe even longer? I'm sure theres more efficient methods.
 

Branggen

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I once took over one hundred xanax bars. I'm not even kidding. My girlfriend flushed all my opioids including like ounces of fentanyl and my subs, which at the time were my backup. I had been on a strong fentanyl bender for months and months, and I knew the nightmares that awaited me and since xanax was all I had I threw 10mg in my mouth and tried to sleep . Woke up 5 days later. I had 150 bars before blacking out, and when I woke up the bottle was empty. I found 30 or so lost in the couch, but the rest are unaccounted for. And considering I slept for 5 days and had very bad sleep paralysis, I am assuming I must have taken them. I remember being fully aware but being unable to move my body even an inch. I remember trying to scream for help but I couldn't move my mouth. Scary.

And to OP... I remember watching an very old episode of mission impossible where they did this. I imagine it could work.... but it would take a long time to build up a dependence bad enough to break someone. Could take 6 - 12 months. Maybe even longer? I'm sure theres more efficient methods.
How long were you were you conscious but unable to move for?
 

Pickledlemons

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That is unclear to me, I'm surprised I remember anything without that much benzo in my brain lol. Have you ever had sleep paralyses? it's scary. often comes with hallucinations. I know it has something to do with a lock put on your body during sleep so you don't act out your dreams. That lock doesn't stop when it should and then you are awake and can't move.
 

Sky God

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Spy's are well trained on keeping quiet through physical and mental torture so i doubt it. A regular person probably would but it comes down to the individual . Some would some wouldn't.
 

burn out

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I'd say only if the person was already addicted to opioids. Otherwise it wouldn't be very efficient because opioid dependecy takes a while to develop, they would have to keep him high constantly possibly for weeks or longer before the WD symptoms even start getting uncomfortable.
Honestly the worst part about that situation would be that they're keeping you captive for a fucking long time and you don't even know what's going to happen to you. Personally I probably wouldn't even care about going into opiod WD, I'd just want to get out of there ASAP.

I'd take opioid WD before torture every single time, specially if they're the kind of people who really like to fuck you up really good (things like mutilation, burning, breaking bones, stuff involving animals, etc...).

I think the whole point of using opioid withdrawal as a torture method is that it allows you to inflict absolutely immense pain which you can cure instantly as soon as you get the information you want and then return your victim home in one piece with little to no long term damage to boot. This is why water boarding is used as a torture technique, it's extremely unpleasant but doesn't cause any long term damage. If you don't care about the consequences of maiming your victim, then there's no need to use sophisticated techniques. You can just use a club.
 

burn out

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Is forced opioid withdrawal torture? Yes

Would it work to get good information? I doubt it, regular torture is highly unreliable at getting information as it is.

Is that because it's difficult to verify the information? Because in a situation where the information can be tested (for example, if you wanted the password to get into a phone or something and you had the phone in your possession) it's difficult for me to see torture not working.

I know that when I was withdrawing from heroin the worst feeling was if you sprayed me with cold water. If you sprayed me with a hose and offered to stop spraying me and give me some opiates if I talked, there is no way I would have been able to keep anything secret.
 

JessFR

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Is that because it's difficult to verify the information? Because in a situation where the information can be tested (for example, if you wanted the password to get into a phone or something and you had the phone in your possession) it's difficult for me to see torture not working.

I know that when I was withdrawing from heroin the worst feeling was if you sprayed me with cold water. If you sprayed me with a hose and offered to stop spraying me and give me some opiates if I talked, there is no way I would have been able to keep anything secret.

Yes it's because generally when a state wants information, it's generally stuff that can't be easily validated and needs to be reliable. Such is my understanding anyway.

Keep in mind in most real life instances it's one state interrogating someone who knows something regarding another state or non state actor. And in practice usually what they're looking for is stuff about how that state or non state actor operates, who else works with them, what their future plans may be. All things where you can't immediately determine if the person being tortured is telling the truth. Or indeed if they even know as much as you hope they do.

And it's there where torture hasn't seemed to have a lot of success. Not when compared to other methods of interpretation.
 

svacheme3

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I’ve never gotten to the “baby crawling on the ceiling” hallucinating withdrawal they depict in Trainspotting, which i can’t take seriously, but i could be wrong. They either make it look nuts like that or like it’s really nothing, we‘re just being babies about it. If you know you know, if you don’t you don’t 🤷🏻‍♀️.

Withdrawal can get absolutely as bad as depicted minus the hallucinations. I had to cold turkey from 2-3000mgs of oxy a day, trust me it's nothing like normal withdrawals. At this point, it actually does become deadly, because your body is firing out both ends literally every few minutes for days on end and you're soaked in sweat, so it's impossible to absorb enough water quick enough to not have death from dehydration be a serious issue.
 

RDP89

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What do you guys think, when I was in my bad opiate phase I bet I woulda given up all kinds of information for a dose, not that I know anything anyone would particularly want to get out of me.

What if a spy got caught, was forced onto huge opiate doses and was only allowed to get more if information was given. You guys think that could be effective?
Yeah, cops do it all the time.
 

Bella Figura

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Well, if you were being tortured during withdrawal you might appreciate the endorphins from the pain inflicted...

As bad as opiate WD is, I wouldn't say I'd reveal anything if that was the torture in and of itself.
 
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