Opioids Common Opiate Myths Explained (hopefully)

[junkiejames]

I have been a recreational opiate user for about 5 years and I have two very important questions that I can not find a strait answer to, even after researching and researching.

First, Opiates are my DOC, but as with anything, too much of a good thing is bad. Anyway, I never IV anything. Normally snort OC, but I was wondering what the BA is for OC. Some say plugging is best, others just chewing them up, others snorting. I was wondering if anyone the right answer.

Second, I have heard so many different things about methadone its crazy. I know its a long lasting, opioid, that is used for addiction problems, as well as pain and recreation. What are it's opioid receptor blocking effects? Some say it blocks all opiates, other say it only blocks when given doses in high amounts (80mg+).....but, is that in a 24 hr period or what. I've been on methadone 10 mg pills for 5 days, 2 pills 2 times a day. I'm out of dones now. I was wondering if it is ok to go ahead and start ween myself off using hydro 10's or small amounts of O.C. now, or will the methadone mess that up? Really want to get sober, but don't have the time to lay in bed for 2 weeks. Any suggestions or what I can expect. I don't like subs either, bc they r hard to find, I start WD before I can take more or anything else, etc. I always end up sick when subs are involved. I've heard really scary things about methadone too, but it seemed to work...maybe too well. Do not want to trade one addition for another. Words from the wise, Please!


Be the change you want to see in the world. Ghandi

 

[Kurrupt]

All of these questions have been anwsered 100's of times in this forum alone, do a little more searching. I'll help you out with oxycodone's BA, in order from best to worst, search for more exact numbers if you want this is from memory...

IV - 100% > Plugged - 80% > Oral - 60-70% > Snorted - 40-50%

Remember these are estimates from memory, if you want exact numbers do some digging here or trying Googling 'oxycodone bioavailability (sp?). Google and search are your friends .

PS. Welcome to Bluelight! Enjoy your stay

 

[Nikolai]

Everyone has their personal preference regarded to OC. I will never take it any other way than by snorting. OC I believe has a strong BA no matter which way you take it. I will lose a little of the drug, if thats the case, to get the faster onset when blowing OC. But really anything leftover when blowing it I believe your body ingests as it drips. Some swear by chewing them, and they sometimes even convinced me to give it a try again, and I would always be disappointed. IV of course has the best BA if you want to cross that line. I havent plugged anything, but there are those that swear by it as well. You will only find out from experience.

As for the methadone, at your dose I think you can start the hydro or OC the next day. Others may know more about its time spent in the body and how it works Thats the best way to assure yourself of staying out of WD though IMO, or you could wait until you start feeling some WD to take them. I used to take methadone in amounts like 50-100mg and I always thought I only felt the drug actively in my system for about 12 hours or so. After that long I would always have to take something else before I started feeling real shitty.

Good luck tapering and getting clean.

 

[Senator Lennon]

Plug it! It isn't nearly as uncomfortable as everyone is afraid (I'm a junkie not a homo btw) the BA is higher, there's no drip, reduced nausea, faster onset, won't collapse veins, (hopefully won't collapse your rectum, I wouldn't overdo it haha)

That was just my small spiel for plugging.

 

[Tchort]

For Question 2, I wrote the clearest explanation I possibly could regarding Methadone and it's mythical properties:

No it just blocks everything and everything there is? If thats not an antagonist I don't know what is?

Well, to use the metaphor from the Reckitt-Benckiser Suboxone patient booklet, think of a door with a lock on it.

For opioids, think of agonists and antagonists when it comes to opening that door. An agonist is a key that fits in the lock and opens the door wide open. An antagonist is a key that will fit the lock, but won't open the door. Because it is filling the lock, if an agonist comes along and tries to unlock and open the door, it cannot, because the antagonist is taking up the space in the keyhole.


Quote:
A receptor antagonist is a type of receptor ligand or drug that does not provoke a biological response itself upon binding to a receptor, but blocks or dampens agonist-mediated responses

When it comes to agonists blocking other agonists, this is due to cross tolerance.

Cross tolerance occurs when a person is dependant on a mu-agonist opioid. Lets say Morphine. The person is taking 100mg Morphine three times a day. Halfway through the day that person comes across 20mg of Oxycodone, and takes it. However, the Oxycodone has no effect. This is not because the Morphine is an antagonist, but because of cross-tolerance. It would take an equi-potent dose of another opioid to have mu-agonist effects (i.e. getting high, miosis, respiratory depression, constipation, sedation/nodding, etc).

If that same person came across say 16mg Hydromorphone, they would most likely feel its effects- because this dose of Hydromorphone is close to or above the tolerance level of the person dependant on Morphine.

This is what happens to people on MMT (Methadone Maintanence Therapy). Due to a high volume of distribution, Methadone has a very long half-life, which increases over time on MMT when high doses and daily administration are involved. The treatment protocol in the United States (and most other nations that use MMT) calls for 2 stages in MMT dose adjustment.

1) Gradually titrate (raise) the Methadone dose until the patient reaches stability (i.e. a single dose keeps them out of withdrawal for a full 24 hours).

2) Raise the Methadone dose to a point where they no longer feel cravings to use other opioids (generally 80mg-120mg+). At these dose levels, cross-tolerance becomes a factor. The Methadone dose is high enough that it would take a very large amount of Heroin or another opioid to go over the top of the cross-tolerance level. Most opioid addicts will not or simply cannot spend several hundred dollars on one high trying to 'breakthrough' their Methadone dose.

There are studies from Holland & Sweden that show some opioids, due to their rapid lipid solubility and high potency, are capable of 'breaking through' cross-tolerant levels of Methadone at lower doses. Trials were conducted using a combination of Hydromorphone & Methadone (Holland) and Dextromoramide & Methadone (Sweden). Dilaudid (Hydromorphone) is often used to treat severe pain in MMT patients hospitalized in the United States.

The ability of Methadone to "block" other opioids for several days without redosing the Methadone is due to its high volume of distribution and thus very long half-life. A person who takes a single dose of Methadone will most likely stop showing it in their urine within 2 - 4 days. An MMT patient who stops taking their Methadone will often test positive for 7- 9 days after their last dose.

It is still cross-tolerance relative to the physiological effects of the particular opioid used.

. . .

As noted above, Methadone does not have a magical ability to block any and all opioids at any dose. The cross-tolerance 'blockade effect' generally doesn't start until someone takes at least 60mg-120mg daily. At lower daily doses, an MMT patient wouldn't encounter much trouble getting high on other opioids (in the 20mg-50mg a day range).

Original Thread:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=422565&page=2

Methadone is as potent as Morphine for analgesia (pain relief), almost on a mg for mg basis when talking about IV Methadone vs IV Morphine. Methadone can be used recreationally the same as any other opioid, it will provide all of the typical mu-agonist effects: anxiolysis, euphoria, sedation, miosis, constipation, low BP, etc. The long half-life and the high volume of distribution (Google or Wikipedia for more) is what makes Methadone a good candidate for Opiate Replacement Therapy programs, and what makes it a poor choice for regular recreational use. The long half-life, slow buildup and high volume of distribution make it far less abusable than a short acting opioid- but it is abusable and addictive just the same.

As for your first question, you are making a mistake of perception that a lot of people on BL make.

Bio-Availibility is a very narrow way to look at drug use. According to BA, no one should want to inject Benzodiazepines or Zolpidem, or certain opioids with high oral or rectal or insufflation BA.

BA does not account for the time it takes a drug to take effect. Oxycodone has a high oral BA; so while the difference in BA between oral and IV Oxycodone might not be too different, IV Oxycodone will rapidly take effect vs oral Oxycodone. Most opioid users would choose the route of administration that hits you the fastest and the hardest, the one that 'feels' the best, over one that may, on paper, be the 'most effective' according to BA and duration of effects.

A prime example is whether or not to chase (vaporize) Diamorphine Hydrochloride (street Heroin). The BA is low due to the poor volatilization quality of Diamorphine Hcl vs freebase, so even if insufflation or oral or rectal BA for Heroin Hcl is higher than that for chasing, the amount of Heroin Hcl that is absorbed through this route of administration will feel stronger and hit faster than any of the other higher BA routes.

 

[woamotive]

The methadone megathread has these answers in it. You should check it out. Your q's have been answered-check out the thread regardless as it's always best to know more than just 'the basics'.

 

[opiaddict]

Methadone as probably stated before has no receptor blocking effects. It fills them. and you can groe a high tolerance, but many junkies use H along with methadone. If you are looking 4 something to block try narcan. NOT! JK. But really, I think buprenorphine HCl is a better choice than methadone for several reasons, See the suboxone megathread.

 

[junkiejames]

Thanks All

Thanks to everyone that replied. Down to one hydro a day. Not feeling very well, as today I haven't taken anything. Prob about to pop a bar or two and sleep through the night.

Anyway, thanks for answering my questions. I did search and find many variations of answers. I just didn't know which ones to believe. Been playin' around on blue light more lately, so it is much easier to find shit, and know who actually knows what they are talking about, and who's full of shit.

Clearing up the methadone thing was the most important. I know so many kids out there that have no idea what they are doing with that shit. And it seem just recently (year or so) there has been a huge supply of those done 10 tablets (rectangle). Methadone can be so dangerous for newbies that I believe this will help a lot of peps!

Peace Out!

Be the change that you want to be in the world. -Gandhi